You give no examples, yet you name call. Rand's epistemology is consistent with science and has lead to advancements in science. Your theories on infinite regression were incorrect-so why should I buy into this argument without any proof?
Did you miss Ayn Rand's Introduction to Objectivist Epitemology? If your writing is in reference to this work, which of the 8 chapters did you disagree with? She wrote in the Introduction that this was just the early threads of a complete work on Objectivism.
Yes, I've read ITOE. And yes, I understand that it was only meant to be an *introduction*. I wish that I had the opportunity to see her elaborations on her epistemology -- or better yet: to sit down with her and discuss it. Unfortunately neither are the case. So, I must go off of the way that it has been used among a majority of prominent objectivist intellectuals (particularly Peikoff) -- and from that assessment, Objectivist Epistemology is sorely mistaken.
There is a lot of content in ITOE which I would heartily agree with, but I disagree with the approach. In ITOE, Rand seems to have a misguided aim as she covers epistemology. This post may be helpful in the matter: http://thechristianegoist.wordpress.com/...
And that misguided aim translates into some horribly destructive ideas in Peikoff's Analytic Synthetic Dichotomy which, I'm sure you know, is an appendix to ITOE.
First I'll cast my own definitions; Metaphysics is the science that tries to answer the question of what is possible for us to know? (I use the verb "to know" in the sense of Aristotle's Logic and Galileo's scientific method). Epistemology is the science that attempts to answer the question of how do you know what you know?
Metaphysics must begin with one of two assumptions, viz. either the universe we sense is the totality of all that exists or can exist, or, there are dimensions, Plato's forms or Heaven for example, that are beyond our senses.
If you take the former as true, then the first task of Epistemology is to prove that our senses are a valid method of apprehending reality. If you accept the latter assumption, then you reduce yourself to subjective assertions which cannot be proven.
Finally, as regards children, Ayn Rand wrote a series of articles titled The Comprachicos in The Objectivist August – December 1970 in which she gives an excellent exposition of the intellectual development of children. Have you read these?
Yes, I've read Rand's The Comprachicos, and I greatly appreciated (and agreed) with her many insights there. But, getting down to business:
What is this "assumption" nonsense that Objectivists keep bringing up to me? It is very ironicially - and tragically - similar to a lot of talk from modern Christian intellectuals. I don't want to assume anything on the foundational levels of my worldview!
Why must we "begin with one of two assumptions"? Why can't we begin with certainty rather than assumptions? And why do you assume that something existing beyond our senses automatically reduces one to subjective and unprovable assertions!?
I know why: it is because you are assuming that sense perception is the only way to know anything objective about reality. Check your premises.
If sense perception were the only way to know objective truth, then you would never know that *that* was objectively true - because you can't perceive that with your senses. You cannot perceive with your senses "all truth being perceivable".
Please list the "foundational levels of my worldview" and how you arrived at them.
What are these certainties you would begin with? Have you moved beyond Aristotle's laws of Identity, Non-Contradiction, and Excluded Middle? Are you able to utter the truth from the getgo? If so, how were you able to achieve this?
Humans are born capable of Reason and Emotions. The tool of Reason is logic. The tool of Emotions is faith. Faith, or belief, is subjective and does not need to be proven.
Our five senses are the only tools our brains have to evaluate the universe in which we live. Coupling these with Aristotle's logic allows us to prove whether our conclusions are true or false. Perception by itself is merely raw material for our brains. Seeing is not believing, nor is it knowledge.
Finally, are you suggesting that because our brains are incapable of sensing their own inner workings, that objective truth is impossible?
Foundational levels of my worldview: Metaphysics and Epistemology.
Certainty that I would begin with: A is A. A is not ~A. Either A or ~A.
I didn't say anything about faith. Who are you arguing against?
No, I am suggesting that if "our five senses" were "the ONLY tools our brains have to evaluate the universe" then we would have no way of knowing that "Aristotle's logic" was universally valid -- and therefore we would have no certain way of evaluating or knowing anything.
"All truth is reducible to perception" Is THAT "truth" reducible to perception?
A better way to see examples though is to try the test I outlined at the end: Try to clearly state your epistemological "laws" or "principles". Then see if they contradict each other (like the one above). Pay particular attention to the epistemological laws you might bring up in arguing against Theism.
A is A Every logical system has to start with an observation or assumption. Science and Rand start with observation and they check their system against reality, ie observation, just as in physics. The idea that you can trust your perceptions, not that they are infallible, you build logical systems and you check these systems against reality, is what every advance in this world that humans have created is based on. The evidence is overwhelming, that this is a true metaphysical and epistemological system. In math, that fundamental assumption is axiomatic. In physics and Rand, it is observation. A is A, therefore you can trust your senses. You can trust them, however, they are not infallible.
Posted by $ TheChristianEgoist 2 days ago A is A. You mean that about EVERYTHING, right? Have you observed every a equaling a...or do you just "assume" it? ;)
I'm not an empiricist. I don't need to observe every A is A, any more than I need to throw a ball in the air to see if gravity is still in force today. well, what is it? do I have to pay to go into the tent? ;)
So, logic is just a pragmatic assumption for you then? It was around yesterday so it'll likely be around today? If not, then what epistemological justification do you have for believing it to be true? Is it an "observation"? An "assumption"? Or a fairytale? You seem to believe those are the only three options. I say that the alternative is logical necessity, but you reject that. What is your epistemological foundation for logic then? It can't be "observation" unless you've observed every single a equaling a. That leaves assumption (weak) or fairytale (even weaker) -- there certainly isn't any room for certainty though.
all of physics is built around a is a. When there is a contradiction, scientists assume a is a and their their theory has missed something if there is a contradiction. The concept of God does not provide certainty. Logic is the art of non-contradictory thinking.
I didn't say that the concept of God "provides certainty". I did imply that we can be certain that God exists - but that's a different issue.
You didn't answer the question. I understand that you believe that all of physics is built around the law of identity (and I would agree that where physics is accurate, it is certainly leaning on the law of identity), but the question is: what is your epistemological reasoning for accepting the law of identity to be universally valid?
If "all of physics is built on" the law of identity, and yet you cannot give a valid epistemological foundation for believing that the law of identity is accurate, then "all of physics" (and all of morality, etc...) is on pretty shaky ground.
Can you (or ANY objectivist for that matter) give a non-contradictory reason to believe that the law of identity is universally valid - other than logical necessity? If not then you must either accept logical necessity or reject the law of identity. Your choice.
Observation. every logical system starts with an observation or assumption. There is overwhelming evidence for this. NO evidence to the contrary. as to answering your question. we have several times! A is A. This is consistent with scientific knowledge. You can derive logical abstractions there from. Come up with whatever philosophy you want, but if it contradicts reality (science) there is a mistake. Go fix it!
There is a lot of content in ITOE which I would heartily agree with, but I disagree with the approach. In ITOE, Rand seems to have a misguided aim as she covers epistemology. This post may be helpful in the matter:
http://thechristianegoist.wordpress.com/...
And that misguided aim translates into some horribly destructive ideas in Peikoff's Analytic Synthetic Dichotomy which, I'm sure you know, is an appendix to ITOE.
Metaphysics must begin with one of two assumptions, viz. either the universe we sense is the totality of all that exists or can exist, or, there are dimensions, Plato's forms or Heaven for example, that are beyond our senses.
If you take the former as true, then the first task of Epistemology is to prove that our senses are a valid method of apprehending reality. If you accept the latter assumption, then you reduce yourself to subjective assertions which cannot be proven.
Finally, as regards children, Ayn Rand wrote a series of articles titled The Comprachicos in The Objectivist August – December 1970 in which she gives an excellent exposition of the intellectual development of children. Have you read these?
What is this "assumption" nonsense that Objectivists keep bringing up to me? It is very ironicially - and tragically - similar to a lot of talk from modern Christian intellectuals. I don't want to assume anything on the foundational levels of my worldview!
Why must we "begin with one of two assumptions"? Why can't we begin with certainty rather than assumptions? And why do you assume that something existing beyond our senses automatically reduces one to subjective and unprovable assertions!?
I know why: it is because you are assuming that sense perception is the only way to know anything objective about reality. Check your premises.
If sense perception were the only way to know objective truth, then you would never know that *that* was objectively true - because you can't perceive that with your senses. You cannot perceive with your senses "all truth being perceivable".
What are these certainties you would begin with? Have you moved beyond Aristotle's laws of Identity, Non-Contradiction, and Excluded Middle? Are you able to utter the truth from the getgo? If so, how were you able to achieve this?
Humans are born capable of Reason and Emotions. The tool of Reason is logic. The tool of Emotions is faith. Faith, or belief, is subjective and does not need to be proven.
Our five senses are the only tools our brains have to evaluate the universe in which we live. Coupling these with Aristotle's logic allows us to prove whether our conclusions are true or false. Perception by itself is merely raw material for our brains. Seeing is not believing, nor is it knowledge.
Finally, are you suggesting that because our brains are incapable of sensing their own inner workings, that objective truth is impossible?
I have nothing more to add. that's unusual
Metaphysics and Epistemology.
Certainty that I would begin with:
A is A. A is not ~A. Either A or ~A.
I didn't say anything about faith. Who are you arguing against?
No, I am suggesting that if "our five senses" were "the ONLY tools our brains have to evaluate the universe" then we would have no way of knowing that "Aristotle's logic" was universally valid -- and therefore we would have no certain way of evaluating or knowing anything.
I have my own idea of this, but would like to hear yours.
"All truth is reducible to perception"
Is THAT "truth" reducible to perception?
A better way to see examples though is to try the test I outlined at the end:
Try to clearly state your epistemological "laws" or "principles". Then see if they contradict each other (like the one above). Pay particular attention to the epistemological laws you might bring up in arguing against Theism.
Every logical system has to start with an observation or assumption. Science and Rand start with observation and they check their system against reality, ie observation, just as in physics. The idea that you can trust your perceptions, not that they are infallible, you build logical systems and you check these systems against reality, is what every advance in this world that humans have created is based on. The evidence is overwhelming, that this is a true metaphysical and epistemological system.
In math, that fundamental assumption is axiomatic. In physics and Rand, it is observation. A is A, therefore you can trust your senses. You can trust them, however, they are not infallible.
Posted by $ TheChristianEgoist 2 days ago
A is A. You mean that about EVERYTHING, right? Have you observed every a equaling a...or do you just "assume" it? ;)
By the way... There is a third option.
well, what is it? do I have to pay to go into the tent? ;)
If not, then what epistemological justification do you have for believing it to be true? Is it an "observation"? An "assumption"? Or a fairytale? You seem to believe those are the only three options.
I say that the alternative is logical necessity, but you reject that.
What is your epistemological foundation for logic then? It can't be "observation" unless you've observed every single a equaling a. That leaves assumption (weak) or fairytale (even weaker) -- there certainly isn't any room for certainty though.
You didn't answer the question. I understand that you believe that all of physics is built around the law of identity (and I would agree that where physics is accurate, it is certainly leaning on the law of identity), but the question is: what is your epistemological reasoning for accepting the law of identity to be universally valid?
If "all of physics is built on" the law of identity, and yet you cannot give a valid epistemological foundation for believing that the law of identity is accurate, then "all of physics" (and all of morality, etc...) is on pretty shaky ground.
Can you (or ANY objectivist for that matter) give a non-contradictory reason to believe that the law of identity is universally valid - other than logical necessity? If not then you must either accept logical necessity or reject the law of identity. Your choice.