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Is Capitalism a Game of the Survival of the Fittest?

Posted by dbhalling 8 years, 12 months ago to Philosophy
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It is quite common to be in a discussion about economics and proposing a capitalist solution when someone pipes-in “that’s just survival of the fittest.” What they are talking about is “Social Darwinism” and the image they mean to conjure up is that capitalism is like a bunch of gladiators fighting it out to the death until there is just one winner. Unfortunately, this tends to trip many of us because we often say that capitalism is about competition and that competition is what makes America great.
SOURCE URL: http://www.thesavvystreet.com/is-capitalism-a-game-of-the-survival-of-the-fittest/


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  • Posted by Danno 8 years, 12 months ago
    Most misunderstand Darwinism. In the natural world there is plenty of cooperation within species and among (think symbiotic relationships). The 100% safety thinking drives me crazy. We don't live in Utopia as there is none.
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    • Posted by Herb7734 8 years, 12 months ago
      The reason Darwinism no longer applies to Man is that unlike all other animals humans do not submit to their environment but change the environment to suit themselves. Once we stop doing that it will mean we have stopped using our reasoning faculties, that is the road to extinction. As an aside -- Utopia has got to be boring as hell.
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      • Posted by 8 years, 12 months ago
        In another article I show that inventions are the evolutionary equivalent of genetic modifications
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        • Posted by Herb7734 8 years, 12 months ago
          Mutations?
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          • Posted by 8 years, 12 months ago
            And sexual recombination and perhaps epigenetics
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            • Posted by Herb7734 8 years, 12 months ago
              Aw c'mon DB.
              Epigenetics? Ooh, esoteric.
              You know, you folks often make me feel like I'm back in college. A dictionary in one hand, a encyclopedia in another and an atlas in another. And it's been a very, very long time since I was in college.
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              • Posted by 8 years, 12 months ago
                I am not an expert on genetics. My point was to just cover all the ways that genetics can be manipulated to create a different organism.
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                • Posted by Herb7734 8 years, 12 months ago
                  I understand.
                  What I was inspired to say by putting what I thought was a humorous twist on it is that I am learning as I interact with the Gulch. I should be more serious in my responses. You opened up new vistas of thought for me and pathways that I hadn't considered before. The fascinating thing about the Gulch is that, instead of wasting time and energy pointing out the screwed up premises of those I communicate (argue?) with, I can either put forth what I have learned and learn from others instead.
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          • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 12 months ago
            Just into Objectivism in One Lesson - Bernstein
            "When the great English scientist William Thomson (Lord Kelvin), was asked why nobody else had invented incandescent lighting, he replied tersely: 'The only answer I can think of is that no one else is named Edison'."

            Some one else may or may not have invented it or they may have found a way to domesticate and farm producers of spermaceti.

            down the page a bit a quote from Edison "Observation based reality rather than faith in the supernatural or slavish obedience to emotional desires is the method by which men learn."

            'Edison learned from Newton and Faraday but never forgot they might be mired in preconceived dogma and associated errors. he proved all things to himself through his own methods of objective examination and among other things learned the received opinion of electrical opinion that light required high voltage and low resistance the opposite was true low voltage and high resistance. He then invented the incandescent light, a power plant, and a full lighting system.' that part paraphrased for brevity.
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      • Posted by blackswan 8 years, 12 months ago
        Perhaps we should say that we create new environments, rather than change the current one. We still have hot summers, but we create air conditioning to enable us to better survive the heat. And we have heating to survive cold winters. The environment hasn't changed, but technology has been invented so that we can function in spite of the environment.
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    • Posted by plusaf 8 years, 11 months ago
      So, the argument from The Other Side is, "Survival of the Fittest isn't good"?

      There is but one logical alternative... Support Survival Of The Weakest....

      Toss THAT into the conversation and see what happens... I've done that in 'discussions' where people decry the effects of The Profit Motive...

      "So, you'd prefer the Loss Motive"? Try to float some stock based on THAT goal... :)
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    • Posted by 8 years, 12 months ago
      Very interesting.and good points
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      • Posted by Maritimus 8 years, 11 months ago
        Hello, Dale,

        Your piece about capitalism as a game of survival of the fittest reminded me of many past occasions when I spent time contemplating the nature of capitalism and the related concepts, many of which you invoked. I am responding (too?) late because of some travelling I had to do.

        Here, I would like, in a way of response, to take the same and similar ideas and express them differently. I mean it when I say differently. I am not saying “better”, nor do I mean in conflict with what you said. Just a different perspective of a different individual with a different life experience. But also with the same need for consistency, the same obligations of truthfulness and concordance with reality.

        (As you can tell, this is going to be relatively long, coming from a meticulous nitpicker using a foreign language. Sorry about that. I hope that you are a patient man. If not, the “delete” key is very helpful.)

        It seems to me indisputable that life is a phenomenon governed by the laws of nature, e.g. principles of thermodynamics, and the nature of matter. As you say, it consumes energy by multiplication and reproduction, which implies a drive for survival. As a consequence of the non-equilibrium nature of the life processes, life of an individual living thing is finite. Nothing living is immortal. The drive involved is directional and the processes irreversible.

        Seeking sources of energy directly leads to competition, among the individuals and species, for food and space (territory). As Darwin so clearly demonstrated, the competition leads to improvements and evolution. Continuous improvement in chances of survival and reproduction leads to better individuals and better species.

        I know nothing about the game theory. Many years ago I read something about it that turned off and I never gave it another chance. The evolutionary competition that I mentioned leads directly to cooperation, sort of superimposed on the competition that is life. My limited experience is in playing soccer, basketball and lots of chess. The cooperation is called teamwork. But, please note that on every team there is also a competition among the members of the same team.

        We humans, as a species of living organisms are, as a matter of course, subject to all those things I mentioned above, including the same basic driving forces. Being rational, we are able to understand reality better and deeper than any other living things. But, even among humans, there are vast differences in those abilities as well as in physical abilities.

        Humans develop methods of producing useful things (technologies) and thus create value. Value being determined by how much other humans are willing to part with value of their own creation, to obtain the valuable useful things made by any given technology under consideration. There is also a sort of life cycle in technologies. The basic innovation creates it. Its early success in the markets generates revenue to fund efforts in continuous improvement (I call it development engineering). Many innovative ideas and novel designs support that continuous improvement. Gradually, the cost of each improvement grows and the overall improvements become less significant. The technology matures. Then somebody else comes up with a bright new invention and the old technology is replaced by a new one. The effectiveness of that continuous improvement is measured by efficiency of the development processes: how much increase in product value versus the cost of implementing the improvement. Please note that this is the same as the efficiency of a bird trying to find enough food. Flying all day for one grain leads to sudden death.

        Of course nobody would want 500 firms building model Ts. But I submit that no one would want 500 monopolies either. The competition on efficiency and productivity is part of the essential nature of capitalism and, as I hope I made clear above, as well of the essential nature of life. In every kind of business there is someone that thinks that there is a better idea on how to run that particular kind of business. The only way to really find out is try to do it. It is called entrepreneurial risk. Own money and private investors willing to take that risk. And the first real life lesson in marketing for the new entrepreneur. The competitors force each other to be more efficient and find continuous improvements: in technology, in management, in marketing and financing.

        The only place I differ with you, I think, is on the goal of the economy. I think that the better goal for a capitalist economy is to simultaneously maximize total wealth and median wealth. You do not want a couple of multi-trillionaires and all the rest of us scraping to put together the down payment for the mortgage on the home.

        I would like to point out that social arrangements based on life, liberty, private property and pursuit of happiness are in deep agreement with the nature of life and the nature of capitalism. Without freedom to accumulate value and then risk it on the owner’s idea of a successful enterprise, there cannot be capitalism. The fundamental flaw and deeply corrupting influence of our form of government at present is its ability to sell protection from competition to the willing buyers of that service. Lobbying is just a euphemism for bribery, in my opinion.

        Finally, about Mr. Spencer’s defamation of capitalism. Darwin was far too smart and knowledgeable to make such a basic mistake. He never even remotely visualized the species or the individual living things as gladiators in mortal struggle to become the last survivor. Actually, I think that Mr. Spencer did not make any mistakes. He deliberately wanted to confuse and mislead his audience.

        I hope that I demonstrated amply and convincingly that life and capitalism are deeply related and analogous phenomena. In my opinion, both are truthfully and fully described as phenomena where the rule of the demise of the unfit is always operational. If you break a leg, you cannot walk. If you poison your mind, you cannot think.

        What do you think, Dale?
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        • Posted by 8 years, 11 months ago
          Hi Martimus,

          Unfortunately, this post got more play than what I think is a more fundamental post on the connection between evolution and economics, http://www.thesavvystreet.com/inventi... (https://www.galtsgulchonline.com/post.... Both of these posts are just a glimpse of the connections I make between economics, evolution, and entropy in my book Source of Economic Growth.

          The main motivation for this post was to get people to understand that competition is not what makes America or capitalism great (or is the key to evolution). Of course competition is a poorly defined term, which is why I make it clear that I am talking about the goal of pure and perfect competition. I explain why perfect competition is evil at length in my book as well as my Atlas Summit 2015 talk.

          You appear to be intermixing competition with invention. In science it is important to hold one variable constant while adjusting the other variable. This is why I showed that competition by itself had only a 13% improvement over a century in the 100 meter dash. I think this is fair statement of what competition without invention can accomplish – in fact it is probably an overstatement. Competition is not what makes capitalism great, inventions are what make capitalism great. Are inventions the result of competition? No, not in general. Inventions are made because the inventor wants to solve a problem, not because he want to out compete his neighbor. Rearden did not create his metal to out compete Associated Steel.

          Neither capitalism nor evolution are driven by competition. Competition is a side effect in both cases. In evolution the driver is genetic changes and capitalism inventions are the driver. In fact, there is plenty of competition in a totalitarian state – competition for bread, for shoes, to not stand out, to get the choice political appointment, what there is not cooperation. When people say that capitalism is about competition we get bad economics, bad economic policy, and excuses to not protect our natural rights.

          Monopoly is a loaded word. If what you mean by the 500 monopolies comment, is that we do not want 500 companies each producing high value products/services without anyone producing a nearly identical product/service then you are wrong. That is exactly what we want. The richer the country and the richer we are the more people are going to be producing unique high value products. If what you meant is that we do not want the government to put rules in place (inconsistent with natural rights) to bar competition, that is absolutely true, however it is not the most important issue for wealth creation or what makes capitalism great. A monopoly in economics can only be created by government interference in the market. A sole provider of a product is not a monopoly. If it were then we are all monopolists over are labor, over our property, etc. This is the sort of sloppy thinking that leads to nonsense. In fact, some economists who push this point of view have been honest enough to suggest that all property rights are monopolies, which shows this line of thinking is double speak.

          BTW: As many people can attest on the gulch I am not known for being highly patient.
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          • Posted by $ WilliamShipley 8 years, 11 months ago
            Industries are created by breakthrough inventions. They create new capabilities never before offered or old ones in an entirely new way. These 'tentpole' inventions define new technology.

            But we don't only have disruptive innovation, we also have continuous innovation formed by companies selling similar products inventing minor improvements to give them an advantage with the competition. This is what companies spend the bulk of their creative time doing. A car company's R&D department does not try to create airplanes or space vehicles, it improves cars -- adding rear view cameras, etc. Every year they innovate and improve -- cars.

            Your image of one car company or one telephone company results in a black car/phone. The Model T was available in black, as was AT&T's phone -- although in later years at a significant monthly premium you could get a different color.

            Once you have competing companies in the space trying to produce minor improvements that will make them more attractive to the consumer we have a rainbow of colors.

            I like living in a world with rainbows.
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            • Posted by 8 years, 11 months ago
              Which is why big companies almost never move the world forward.
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              • Posted by $ WilliamShipley 8 years, 11 months ago
                I think that incremental improvements are still forward and that we need that. Light bulbs have gone a long way since Edison.

                However your point that disruptive technology almost never comes from big companies is quite valid. In the software industry I have what I call the "Pizza Principle". The team to design a new product should be the size that can sit around a Pizza and work. I'll allow an extra large pizza since computer geeks generally like pizza but the point is that small teams do the real innovations -- then big companies buy them.

                Of course the software industry has a very low threshold for entry. At the minimum your capital investment is a single computer. One can't design a new rocket the same way.
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  • Posted by Technocracy 8 years, 12 months ago
    Great article.

    Collectivism kills innovation which stifles wealth creation.
    Monopolies kill innovation which stifles wealth creation.

    Only competition stimulates innovation, but it requires that innovation be allowed freedom. Both monopoly and collectivism prevent this, from opposite directions. One can make the case that the less capitalistic we have become, the more the pace of innovation has slowed.

    The less competition in any given field, the more likely changes are to be incremental/evolutionary rather than disruptive/revolutionary.

    Neither a monopoly or collective wants revolutionary change, it disrupts the status quo they want to maintain.
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  • Posted by ProfChuck 8 years, 12 months ago
    Many of the complaints against capitalism are based on a false premise, that life is a zero sum game. Capitalism's greatest strength is that it makes a plus sum game possible. Capitalism makes the pie bigger while Socialism divides the pie into ever smaller pieces. This is because capitalism taps into resources that that the collectivists simply do not comprehend and do not believe exist.
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    • Posted by $ blarman 8 years, 12 months ago
      Capitalism focuses on value-adds - either through improvements in the product itself or better service offerings (customer support, personal relationships, etc.) As we add to the products, their value increases and we end up with more than we started with. Collectivists want to own the labor portion of any process, in effect denying the creation of wealth and value.
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  • Posted by Zenphamy 8 years, 12 months ago
    Excellent essay Dale. Txs
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    • Posted by 8 years, 12 months ago
      I decided to write this in part, because it plays on my point of equating inventions with evolution and because it is nonsense that America is great because of competition or that capitalism is about competition.
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      • Posted by Zenphamy 8 years, 12 months ago
        Dale, I'm venturing away from terminoloy related to property rights here.
        I still think of 'Social Darwinism' as an oxymoron, or at least a badly misused term by social 'scientist'(also an oxymoron). The application of the term has always been as a criticism of Capitalism, even the free-market. And it's intent has always been to convince others of the evilness of the free-market and property rights, making use of the religious antipathy towards the theory and study of evolution. At the time the term was coined, religious belief was strongly opposed to evolution, and socialist were attempting to establish themselves and their work as credible 'science' on par with physical sciences.

        I can easily see the comparison of inventions and evolution and I like that idea. I don't know that I've run into it anywhere else. I wonder if there might also be a similar argument made between the results of evolution (invention) in all of nature (that being a balance of life forms filling available niches (specialization)) and mankind's unique abilities to manipulate his environment with Capitalism being that overall balance with man's innovation (separate from invention) being that manipulation.

        If you think of Otis's elevator safety latch and brake, the hoist in mining and hundreds of other applications had been utilized for centuries and so had latches and safety brakes on mill wheels and gearings, but it's application in safely conveying people was the driver of multi-story buildings. That was an innovation of existing ideas, that made safe use of lifting devices that increased the value of property and made the work necessary of man, less.

        But invention, I think of as being similar to the change in the birds' beaks (noted by Darwin on Galapagos) accomplished by evolution that opens up a new resource. In the case of man, I think of wireless communication brought about by radio.

        Just thoughts. I need to think more on it.
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        • Posted by 8 years, 12 months ago
          1) I agree that social darwinism is an oxymoron. Although I think you have the history wrong (but I am not sure). Originally it was used to support capitalism, then eugenics. Many socialists pushed SD to justify their eugenics plan. However after WWII and its association with NAZIs so it was a great way to smear capitalism.

          2) Several other people have made the connection, although I do not think they have taken it as far. For instance, Ray Kurzweil. has said this as well as some others.
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  • Posted by edweaver 8 years, 12 months ago
    Great article! Great points!
    Capitalism lifts all boats. Crony capitalism lifts some and sinks others.
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    • Posted by blackswan 8 years, 12 months ago
      Cronyism, not crony capitalism or crony socialism.
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      • Posted by edweaver 8 years, 12 months ago
        IMHO, cronyism & crony capitalism are one in the same which are a step toward socialism. Socialism is beyond cronyism so I don't believe there is a such a thing as crony socialism but feel free to define for me.
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        • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 12 months ago
          I've found when you see capitalism linked with anything else be wary unless it's unfettered it's suspect. Fascist Capitalism a thinly veiled version of Marxist Lenist Socialist Economics has now been redefined State Capitalism.. It's the same old Fascist crap. Given the opportunity and the need you'll be hearing Progressive capitalism. It's still left wing socialist crap.Crony capitalism the same and yes there is crony socialism. That belongs to the exempted ruling class and that rule of socialism extends back to Plato. the only difference is between National Socialism and International socialism or Nazism and Communism. Communism allows no private ownership at all and Nazism allows heavily controlled private ownership meaning the owner keeps the liability and consequences for failure and is a State Manager. Both rely on straight up hands down Fascism to control....everything. Thats also the goal of secular progressives.
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          • Posted by edweaver 8 years, 12 months ago
            So under the definitions you describe, America is basically following the path of Nazism.?.
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            • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 12 months ago
              Oh no they are following State Economics ha ha ha. Of course and we've got the Protective Echelon and the one party of system under the rule of a dictator to prove it. Translate Protective Echelon to German....And for those who pronounce DOHS as a form of Dis...as in disrespecting the country try Directorate or Department of Internal State Security... works much better and is more honest.
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  • Posted by johnpe1 8 years, 12 months ago
    but capitalism raises the standard of living of everyone,
    even the indigent -- by increasing the size of the pie,
    of course. . convincing others of this takes persistence,
    IMHO. -- j
    .
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    • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 12 months ago
      Not only the size but the value where State or Socialist Capitalism increases the pie in terms of dollars available but decreases the size of the pie in terms of wealth and especially in terms of value. All value having been sucked out of into negative value numbers...inflation, devaluation and debt repudiation the last PC Term for 'we ain't going to pay the bill."
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  • Posted by $ blarman 8 years, 12 months ago
    Well written. Perhaps a better way to state the impact of competition is not in a Darwinistic manner, but that what is actually happening is that suppliers are competing for the opportunity to enter into a mutually-beneficial relationship with consumers. The competition is actually to see which relationship is the strongest for both partners - not merely one.

    Again, a well-written article. Nicely done.
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    • Posted by 8 years, 12 months ago
      Thanks. The wealthier the country the less competition (producing/selling essentially the same products). On a per capita basis India has more people in competition than Singapore.
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      • Posted by $ blarman 8 years, 12 months ago
        "The wealthier the country the less competition (producing/selling essentially the same products)."

        Do you think that is a result of specialization, the gradual consolidation which tends to happen in mature industries, or some other factor like favoritism in legal treatment? Or a combination of all of the above?
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        • Posted by 8 years, 12 months ago
          It is because of inventions (cars, airplanes, MRI machines, Genetic testing, etc). The historical record shows that inventing only occurs at a "rapid" rate when property rights for inventions are legally protected. Inventions are how we increase are wealth.

          One of the interesting things that falls out from this is that 3rd world countries with lower economic freedom scores can grow faster (initially) than 1st world countries with higher economic freedom scores, because all they need to do is import ( or copy) technologies from 1st world countries.
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  • Posted by DrZarkov99 8 years, 12 months ago
    The "social Darwinists" fail to understand the complex nature of the marketplace. No single invention or new product is going to sink all other competitors, as those competitors quickly move to invent improvements in what they offer, or new products that have little or no competing opponents in the market. If you don't understand how dynamic the nature of a free market is, it all seems like chaos.

    What creates the appearance of a "survival of the fittest" atmosphere in the market is crony capitalism, and government picking winners and losers. As Heinlein said (through Lazarus Long) "Of course the game is fixed, but you can't win if you don't play."
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  • Posted by LibertyBelle 8 years, 12 months ago
    It is a very good article. "Dog-eat-dog" (which I
    believe it was Ayn Rand who said "does not apply
    to capitalism nor to dogs") implies attacking others
    rather than competing with them. However I am
    unfamiliar with the expression "rent seeking" as a synonym for "laziness".
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    • Posted by 8 years, 12 months ago
      It is an expansion of the idea of someone profiting from a government monopoly, and includes profiting from regulations, etc. It is what most people mean by a crony capitalist As one book put it these people are political entrepreneurs not market entrepreneurs
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  • Posted by Esceptico 8 years, 12 months ago
    In the context of an economic system, the statement “survival of the fittest” presupposes a zero sum which is a situation in game theory in which one person’s gain is equivalent to another’s loss, so the net change in wealth is zero. That is not how free enterprise (capitalism) works.

    In my experience, those who make the “survival of the fittest” statement have no understanding of either evolution or free market economics.
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  • Posted by Herb7734 8 years, 12 months ago
    The phrase I often hear when talking economics and proposing Capitalism is, "Oh, that's dog eat dog." The other day, I replied before I thought about it, "That's if you either have a rabid dog or a pit bull." The problem with that response is that ir's taken to be humor. I sure as hell, didn't mean it that way. The more I though about it the better I liked it. As to gladiators, take away the slaughter and what you have is a mixed martial arts fight in the octagon. The winner trained hard, knew his/her opponent, used brains as well as brawn and won. What is wrong with that? Who do you want to put your money on? We can watch or we can get into the arena. Capitalism works the same way. It fosters the hardest working, smartest-in-the-field, and creates winners. Even losers have the opportunity to "pick themselves up, dust themselves off, and start all over again." Which was a popular song lyric of the depression era. An attitude we can certainly use again with our young adults.
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    • Posted by 8 years, 12 months ago
      Competition by itself provides almost no economic advancement as shown by the 100 meter dash example. It is inventions - reason applied to practical problems that makes us wealthier.
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      • Posted by Herb7734 8 years, 12 months ago
        If it's competition in the economic sense, then it includes inventions, reason as applied to practical problems, etc. One of the mottos we used in our publishing firm and prior enterprises was "No Problems, Only Solutions." The competition comes when entering a field with a new product, a better product, a better idea. Sometimes the product or idea is the same or similar (UPS VS FEDEX) to what's already there but does it better, or faster or advertises better. Competition takes many forms and when all is said and done, we all benefit. That is a beauty of Capitalism.
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        • Posted by 8 years, 12 months ago
          Yes, but this is not what creates real wealth. We don't need people competing to create the best Model T, we want people to invent an airplane. We don't want people competing to create a better vacuum tube, we want them to create a transistor, and IC and then microprocessor.
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          • Posted by Herb7734 8 years, 12 months ago
            Fine. But a better vacuum tube will do until the transistor gets invented. Do you get the feeling that we're actually saying the same thing in a different way?
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            • Posted by 8 years, 12 months ago
              I think that economic thinking often fails because they do not control for independent variables. When you control for competition vs. invention, it is invention. Competition is not inherently about man being a rational animal.
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  • Posted by bsmith51 8 years, 12 months ago
    Win-win is a public victory that can only occur after we have broken through the private win-lose paradigm.
    How can one hold life as their highest value while seeing all battles as fights to the death?
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  • Posted by broskjold22 8 years, 12 months ago
    Competition drives innovation. A superior product at a superior price should gain market share. The onus of proof is on the producer to educate his customer on the benefits of his innovative product. It is clear that in stiff competition - with commodities for example - that either the most cost-effective or the best marketed product wins. This is competition. Most companies win on innovation, marketing, cost control, or a combination of these. As far as social Darwinism goes, we should remind ourselves of the hierarchy. In the human realm, competition follows not from biological tenets, but from ethical ones: the ethic of productiveness follows from the requirements of man's life on earth (most of us seek to live above subsistence). This ultimately reduces to the definition of man as the rational animal, that is, a being possessing a consciousness properly composed of volitional conceptualization. This sets human beings apart from biological determinism we ascribe to the animals.
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    • Posted by 8 years, 12 months ago
      Competition is not what creates wealth - invention is what creates wealth.
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      • Posted by broskjold22 8 years, 12 months ago
        Ok, I understand your point better now. Rearden metal was an invention and "competition" is to be considered a product, not a driver, of innovation. The connotation of "competition" relates to a second-hand perspective instead of a proper hierarchy of values. To Rearden, it was all about Rearden metal. "A creative man is motivated by the desire to achieve, not by the desire to beat others." Thanks for the good point. +1
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        • Posted by 8 years, 12 months ago
          The point of most inventions is not to compete with someone else but to create something useful that the person wants and they think other people will want. Edison did not create the light bulb to compete with the gas companies
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          • Posted by $ WilliamShipley 8 years, 12 months ago
            Very few patented inventions are wholly new products. The majority of them are improvements in existing ones to make them more competitive.
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            • Posted by 8 years, 12 months ago
              What a bunch of nonsense. Spew more venom and I will hide you.
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              • Posted by $ jlc 8 years, 12 months ago
                But...but...Wm is right. We did not invent the concept of the "Laboratory Information System": We came up with the first LIS that used a graphic interface - which is an 'improvement to an existing product to make it more competitive'. (It had some innovative design elements in it too, based on my 17 years as a bench med tech.)

                The 'newness' of our product was not that it invented a mousetrap, but that it invented a Better mousetrap. (No, the world did not beat a path to our door.) I have not observed any game-changing innovation in any of our competitors (they are now graphic too, but since we were the first, they can't take credit for that); many of them compete on the basis of having a good sales team to sell what is essentially 'the same thing everyone else has'.

                Wm's remarks were not venomous, and he did not swear. This is a discussion.

                Jan
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                • Posted by 8 years, 12 months ago
                  One of the problems laymen have is that they work with a very vague definition of an invention. I clearly cannot speak to your product, but Wm thinks everything is an improvement not an invention. This is because his definition of an invention is that you create something out of nothing, which is impossible.

                  Shipley is a perfect example of what i have been posting on conservatives and Austrians and libertarians. He is the product of Hume, Burke, Hayek and Mises. He is skeptical of reason and he really does not believe that anyone creates anything, a perfect follower of Hayek's cultural evolution. He is impervious to empirical evidence since like Mises he does not think economics is subject to empirical evidence.

                  He of course would deny this, however Obama denies he is trying to turn the US into a socialist state. He may be unaware of all the intellectual influences that shape his ideas. However, he is a true believer either way and he has absolutely no interest in objectivism and he is only here to disrupt and attack objectivism.

                  If Wm Shipley wrote AS the ending would be that Galt was a fraud, not a great inventor and philosopher, and Galt would be thrown in jail as a fraud. Wm is the very personification of Ellsworth Toohey.
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                  • Posted by $ jlc 8 years, 12 months ago
                    Thank you for replying rationally, and not just making angry comments. I have known Wm for 25+ years and worked with him for over 20. I think that you are projecting your worst nightmares onto him simply because he disagrees with you on patent/copyright issues.

                    Even in his above comments, Wm says only that 'the majority' of the patents are due to improvements to make a product more competitive; this leaves plenty of room (in his brain, my brain, and potentially your brain) for totally 'new stuff'. Cornelius Drebble is accorded the credit for invention of the first microscope. (I did not know that Drebble even existed...thought it was Leewenhook.) All microscopes since then have been 'improvements'. But WOW, what a difference our modern microscopes are from the 17th century variety. There is value in improvement; there is also value in total innovation. Win-win.

                    Were Wm to write an AS style book, the hero would be triumphant. I know this because I have read some of the things he has written: the heroes are smart (/brilliant), competent, and win out over their opponents in the end.

                    Jan
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                    • Posted by 8 years, 12 months ago
                      Thank you.

                      Based on your analysis of what is an improvement, why do you say that Drebble (Leewenhook) is the inventor of the microscope? Was he not just turning a telescope around? Was he not just using two lenses together, which had already been done?

                      I am sure about Wm's philosophical foundations - because it follows logically from his statements and Austrian Economics is wrong and dangerous - as dangerous as any socialist.
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                      • Posted by $ jlc 8 years, 12 months ago
                        Ha! Depending on how you look at it (pun intended), a microscope is an improvement in optics, but an invention in microscopy. The innovation was looking at something small and not at something distant.

                        Insofar as philosophy is concerned, Wm has already responded...but I was going to answer, "I suspect that you are more certain that you know Wm's philosophy than Wm is." I guess that is what working with someone for 20 years or more will do.

                        Per mamaemma, I probably should term my philosophy 'individualistic' while I am in the Gulch. The people here have more of my attitudes and perspectives that folks outside the Gulch generally do, but I have not found anything a perfect fit.

                        Jan
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                      • Posted by $ WilliamShipley 8 years, 12 months ago
                        While you may be sure of my philosophical foundations, I am not. You have obviously done serious study on philosophy. I have been less than a dilettante. I did read "The Road to Serfdom" so I know who Hayek is. I can't say that I am familiar with the rest of his work.

                        I've read more about philosophy since I joined this site than I have before -- frequently in response to one of your references. Even Rand I only read the novels until recently. I have worked with Jan for over 20 years and know some other objectivists who I generally agree with.

                        Of course someone invents the first example of a kind of object. And they use other inventions and materials to do that. Once that's done, the vast majority of invention goes into creating an enhancing the object. Modern incandescent bulbs are far different from what Edison invented but are only improvements.
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              • Posted by $ WilliamShipley 8 years, 12 months ago
                Seriously? You are contending that the 144,000 utility patents granted in 2014 were all completely new products?

                But hide away, I didn't realize this was your thread where you get to hide anyone who disagrees.
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            • -2
              Posted by khalling 8 years, 12 months ago
              every fucking invention is a combination of known elements. We have said this to you countless times! why are you allowed in here?!
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              • Posted by $ WilliamShipley 8 years, 12 months ago
                Because I politely discuss the subjects and pay my membership fee. I don't swear at the people who disagree with me.

                And I didn't say that inventions were not a combination of known elements. What I said was that the majority of patented inventions represented improvements to existing products in order to make them more competitive.

                DB appears to be making the case that invention is only used for new products and not competition with existing ones. Reality is different.
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          • Posted by broskjold22 8 years, 12 months ago
            So invention properly understood is a narrowing of the concept innovation, correct?
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            • Posted by 8 years, 12 months ago
              Innovation is a vague poorly defined concept. An invention is a human creation with an objective result.
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              • Posted by blackswan 8 years, 12 months ago
                One thing to be stressed is that no entrepreneur goes into business to compete. He goes into business to find a niche that he can defend, via sustainable innovation. It's extremely expensive and fraught with danger to directly assault a competitor in the marketplace. It's much better to build a unique business model that addresses a particular market segment, where no one else is in business. Only after one is established in a niche can he then consider moving into other niches.
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    • -5
      Posted by james464 8 years, 12 months ago
      We may be set apart from animals, but according to evolution, we are related and therefore, simply constructs of chemicals and our ethics are defined by ourselves and are at best subjective. Given this, our biology is all we have to direct us....nothing else since there is nothing else right?
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      • Posted by broskjold22 8 years, 12 months ago
        No. You are using consciousness to deny the efficacy of consciousness. Your argument basically consists of material determinism.
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        • -1
          Posted by james464 8 years, 12 months ago
          Ok so is consciousness associated with an immaterial soul, or simply what we call brain activity resulting from chemical interaction and is completely material?
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          • Posted by broskjold22 8 years, 12 months ago
            Neither. You are assuming the the only non-material entity is the soul/god/the supernatural. There are many non-material entities; the number 2, for example. But the fact that 2, a concept, exists, does not imply an immaterial soul any more than it implies that 2 universes exist. Existence exists, and only existence exists. Refer to Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology for details.
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  • Posted by $ sjatkins 8 years, 12 months ago
    No it isn't. It is about freedom in the economic sphere to make your own decisions what value to produce, what value to acquire/seek, what value to offer in exchange. It is about huge numbers of individuals seeking mutual advantage and satisfaction dynamically. There is no universal "fittest". Only thinking interacting
    agents.
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  • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 12 months ago
    Darwinism is survival of the fittest. Social Darwinism is slavery of the fittest by the scum of the animal kingdom or maybe plant kingdom the stuff that grows and crawls under rocks. If you see a rock kick it you might get a politician twoferone on a good day.
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  • Posted by $ prof611 8 years, 12 months ago
    I don't see any problem. Capitalism IS survival of the fittest. In both capitalism and in nature, not being the fittest does not mean death. Those that are not as fit may find another niche that allows them to also thrive. Or they may strive harder, and end up deposing the "fittest".
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  • Posted by illucio 8 years, 12 months ago
    There´s one catch though to this "vision". Or more than one, if I may.

    For instance, where do you place a person that inherits a fortune, such as Ayn Rand´s view on the Starnsville Heirs as the worst case scenario?

    Then you also have to take into account that if you´re born poor, you have to add the fact that the environment you´re in will have a tendency to exclude you from many opportunities; whereas if you´re born rich, alot of strings can be pulled and there is a much more favorable scenario, whether we consider contacts and powerful friends in this or not.

    But, of course; this is just an opinion here; a point of view really. It is common to say that those that are well off will invest alot in their offspring´s education and earlier years; meanning that they shall have fundamental advantages and yet not all rich children understand or take advantage of this. There is what today we call "an emotional education" and well, that´s something that money can´t buy.

    Anyway, I never really liked the term "social darwinism" to begin with; because I consider it to be a terrible metaphor that states that society is like a jungle. If that were so, we´re way off since human beings should be considered a pack, not lions and sheep.

    I may confused here, but isn´t society supposed to be a conglomeration of different skills and trades in order to elevate the quality of life of it´s inhabitants, since there isn´t a single person that can be an expert in everything; nor is there enough time to do everything? And well, from there on comes the complex problem of economics; the domestic markets and the international ones, etc etc etc. It´s great to simplify of course, but this isn´t the Wild West,Manifest Destiny is only isn´t even apliable in the Space Race and well; we´re all different one way or another. Tolerance is key here; for if I can´t get along with my brother it´s not like I have a right to kill him or anything like that.

    Sorry, this is just a point of view. I don´t mean to discredit capitalism, socialism, humanity or society here. I´m just rambling I guess...
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    • Posted by $ blarman 8 years, 12 months ago
      Capitalism is all about what you do with your assets. The person who starts with significant monetary assets is able to overcome capital-based barriers to entry, but doesn't dictate success (unless a nosy politician butts in). I don't hold a grudge against people who inherit wealth, I just look at what they do with it: do they build on it or merely squander it away?

      (And I would note that I do not condemn that person for business failures which result in a loss of fortune. Most entrepreneurs fail several times before finally succeeding.)
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    • Posted by blackswan 8 years, 12 months ago
      Look at the lives of the Robber Barons. None of them inherited their wealth, but they built this country. Even today, look at Steve Jobs. He wasn't born with a silver spoon in his mouth either. The so-called advantages of the rich are nothing more than an excuse to steal their wealth in the name of "fairness." There is no inherent wealth advantage. In fact, if the wealthy guy has any sense, he'll finance a Steve Jobs.
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    • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 12 months ago
      Two ways. Tax it as income or consider it family property on which taxes have already been paid. Since I consider Income tax in any form to be fascist and unacceptable and since I consider family the second most important on the list after the individual other than mooching or looting what other justification is there for stealing?
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      • Posted by illucio 8 years, 12 months ago
        didn´t understand your answer, sorry mate
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        • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 12 months ago
          What part don't you understand? income tax? Fascism, individualism and families, mooching, looting, or stealing?

          Australian? I know they use different definitions down under. If you are a Gold Coaster go to Town Center area and find the Zarraffas's Coffee headquarters. One of the owners is a former yankwank turned honest Ozzie. As for me I'm an Ozzies worst nightmare even more than a kiwi. Half Yank and half Pommy
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          • Posted by illucio 8 years, 12 months ago
            Down Under, but same continent. Argie Land specifically. I understand the terms, just not how you´ve combined them into an answer to my comment. No disrespect intended
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            • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 12 months ago
              None taken so a more sanitized version...Fascism. the line of reasoning is both property tax and income tax are not what they are advertised to be. Property tax in the US. Purchasing real estate in the US only provides the buyer with liability responsibility and the right to pay rent in the form of property tax to the government at whatever level. There is no real ownership as it may be taken at any time. I
              ncome tax has as it's purpose control of the wealth of the citizens with money collecting a secondary objective at best. I'll add VAT is not value added as it adds no value but rather subtracts value making goods or services cost more and is a tax on a series of embedded taxes from tree cutting or mineral mining etc. to a finished product in the house and paid for with value diminished paychecks which have been raided for income tax. Paying for something with value diminished earnings as an employee and value diminished by embedded, enhanced etc other taxes and value diminished by devaluation of the buying power to add it all together is all about control. The governments already taken huge bites before the cash register rings up ...oh yes one last bite called sales tax.

              Basically you are working for approximately half your salary or less and getting little in return except more of the same.

              At the end when an income tax form is sent in and it used to take a signature now it's just a goes without saying law you also walk away with not only less money but complete liability and a felony charge hanging over your head.

              No one can say their taxes are correct when the Revenue Service Itself disagrees with itself and or refuses to explain how to do the taxes. Catch 22 you sign the form or not but send it in you are automatically a criminal.

              That's the fascist part government control of the citizens by any and all means.

              the result is get less spending power while prices are going up as each level in the production chain adds to their overhead.

              Business taxes including VAT are not paid for by the corporation or small business but are added under Cost of Government even if it's just the cost of collection.

              And that's the way it goes with a lot of shinola to fool people.

              One more is with holding tax ...people commonly say they didn't pay taxes the government sent them money. they forgot about with holding which IF "refunded offers no interest another way of saying cost of the loan to the government including loss in buying power of the years time..I like to owe a little bit and pay them in devalued dollars far more than get a refund.

              I also pay $100 a month for Medicare for which I have zero use and only got a flu shot if i paid $200 for travel expenses north of the border. Now the government of Mexico gives them at no charge including visitors and expats.

              I don't give a hundred dollars a month it's taken and we were supposed to get for our military service lifetime medical care....So i survived 24 years in the infantry and pushing five years in combat areas only to find out i now have to pay for what I earned.

              How does it work down there with Evita and Juanito gone? We refer to them as left wingers.
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  • Posted by $ Olduglycarl 8 years, 12 months ago
    What the creatures that think(less) this way do not get, is that honest competition is a challenge to one's one capabilities and it always benefits the end user of a product or service. It's not a vengeful or "I'm better than you" kind of thing; it's also an effort to stay in business which...wait, wait for it...is in one's "Rational self interest" to do so.

    What we find often though, is those that are either crony connected or threatened take on the meme of "do what ever you have to in order to succeed"...Sound like Donald Trump? This meme or mindless set is less integrated and often harmful to the end user.
    Those that complain and point fingers are the ones that create and perpetuate the problem.
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    • Posted by 8 years, 12 months ago
      Unfortunately, competition is a poorly defined term in economics. But the closer you get to pure and perfect competition, the less invention, the less wealth created. Competition is never the goal nor does it produce wealth in an of itself. See the example of the 100 Meter dash.
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      • Posted by blackswan 8 years, 12 months ago
        The only tine you get "perfect" competition is when you're dealing with fungible commodities, and everyone is making identical offers. It doesn't exist. Just look at the coffee business. It's filled with niche players, from starbucks to Dunkin Donuts to McDonald's to Maxwell House to Folger's. Every one of them is following a different business model. None of them is in direct frontal assault competition. They all avoid that like the plague.
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  • -4
    Posted by james464 8 years, 12 months ago
    Ok so where do Social Darwinism and Capitalism cross paths?

    I would argue that a pure capitalistic society with no regard for anyone else but the satisfaction of one's own desires crosses paths with Social Darwinism more than we want to suggest.

    There is no reason for the capitalist to consider anyone else to have value equal or or above himself when there is no attribution of that value external to the capitalist. Others are only pawns to such a person.
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    • Posted by coaldigger 8 years, 12 months ago
      Some terms are just thrown around that are supposed to shame someone who disagrees into accepting a position based on no facts. social Darwinism is just one of those terms. All systems on earth are governed by natural law. In the short term you can defeat nature but she will win out. I am sure some "enlightened" but irrational Egyptian built a pyramid upside down but it isn't around today because gravity finally won. Social systems are no different. Societies flourish because they are based on strong, natural principles of human nature. Overtime the principles are abandoned and the structure crumbles. Capitalism is based on raw nature where the dominate specimen gets the most rewards but the opportunity of any member is not impaired by artificial acts of a third party. There is always an alternative that can be discovered by the human mind and no one dominates that stands still. Standard Oil consistently improved production and lowered its prices to protect its monopoly in kerosene for lighting. Breaking up Standard Oil did nothing in the market place and Edison's light bulb would have broken the monopoly anyway. Capitalists consider others not as pawns but as customers, vendors and potential competitors.
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    • Posted by 8 years, 12 months ago
      I think the article answered that question, they never intersect.
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      • -2
        Posted by james464 8 years, 12 months ago
        You believe they do not intersect, or just state the article says this?
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        • Posted by 8 years, 12 months ago
          I wrote the article.
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          • Posted by Mamaemma 8 years, 12 months ago
            OK, I think this is the best answer I've seen anywhere, db.
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            • -2
              Posted by james464 8 years, 12 months ago
              Not so fast cowboy....authors all the time state things for the sake of argument and such assertions are not necessarily associated with their personal beliefs. There is nothing invalid about confirming he believes this. This isn't a game.
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          • -3
            Posted by james464 8 years, 12 months ago
            They have to intersect, according to my reasoning. We can agree to disagree.
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            • Posted by 8 years, 12 months ago
              You cannot agree to disagree on logic.
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              • -3
                Posted by james464 8 years, 11 months ago
                Ok so you agree we are either created or here from nothing?

                Unless we agree on origins, we can discuss nothing else; foundations are key.

                Defaulting to "existence exists" is a cop out and denial of what is all around you. You cannot reason to a tree...it is there, so you have to believe it is either there by purpose, or accident.
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                • Posted by 8 years, 11 months ago
                  No it is not a cop out. Newton did not know how gravity worked and in fact we still do not know exactly how gravity worked, but we were able to go to the moon, actually leave the solar system, know how tides work, etc. etc etc.

                  Existence does exist why this is true is not necessary for understanding logic.
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                  • -2
                    Posted by james464 8 years, 11 months ago
                    Do you reason to a tree, or is it revealed to you? Why is reason so lauded when without revelation you have no material to reason with? The universe isn't full of reason; it is something man constructs to logically communicate to others his thinking, but is absolutely cannot deal with what is there extraneous to man's existence, unless you believe we are here by accident.

                    Existence exists is a circular statement and really means nothing. It is no different than saying a tree is a tree. It communicates nothing; teaches nothing.
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    • Posted by blackswan 8 years, 12 months ago
      It's obvious that you've never been in business. If the "selfish" person wants to be successful as a capitalist, his first commitment has to be to better serve his market than the next guy. If he doesn't, he's toast. So, rather than look at his customers as "pawns," he puts them on a pedestal, because only by serving them, can he accomplish his own goals.
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    • Posted by $ Olduglycarl 8 years, 12 months ago
      Pure capitalism has a profound concern for everyone else, The creation of business is base on seeing a need and fulfilling that need.
      What your confused with is called "Crony Crapitalism" and is a progressive perversion.

      One should listen when I say that it is 'governments'.., the worlds kakistocracy's that control big businesses...mostly through the board room, majority stock holding and always by someone connected to the kakistocracy.
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