Good government is inefficient government in the realm of tax collection.

Posted by $ Olduglycarl 8 years, 11 months ago to Economics
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THE LAFFER CURVE

Arthur Laffer recently wrote a defense of the corporate VAT tax substitution being proposed by Rand Paul and Ted Cruz.

Dr. Laffer understands that there are conservative opponents of his flat VAT tax plan. He doesn't seem to know why. I know why. The reason is expressed by Dr. Laffer.

The U.S. government should collect taxes in the most efficient way possible so as to do the least damage to the economy.

This sounds good. In fact, it is conceptually inaccurate and highly misleading. The opponents of Dr. Laffer's famous curve -- I am among them -- line up against "the most efficient way possible" for the government to collect taxes. Why? Because we do not want efficient tax collection. We want inefficient tax collection. Why? Because we want the least damage done to personal liberty. (The economy can look out for itself.)

Good government is inefficient government in the realm of tax collection. Here, waste is good -- morally and technically.
SOURCE URL: http://www.garynorth.com/public/14547.cfm


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  • Posted by $ 8 years, 11 months ago
    We want government to be efficient with the taxes it collects, not efficient in the ways it collects them.
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    • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 11 months ago
      As long as the way is not fascist income tax. But to prove the point what is the cost of sending a bill for and collecting then cashing a check for seventy six cents? The cost was to ensure control not collect income for the government.
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      • Posted by $ 8 years, 11 months ago
        It does sound ridiculous but where should the cutoff be?
        Just asking, I myself have no answer except perhaps adding that small figure to an account until it makes sense...still the question of: where is the cutoff point.
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        • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 11 months ago
          A question that can't be answered until one of the premises is corrected otherwise the answer would be government is ridiculous...not bad but not accurate.,

          The purpose of income tax is not to collect funds as much as to exert control over the population in which case seventy six cents serves as a reminder there is not amount too small to stop the Terminators. They will hunt you down and they will absolutely never ever stop until you are destitute and then jail you.
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          • Posted by blackswan 8 years, 11 months ago
            The government isn't the only place where this kind of inefficiency occurs. I worked in a hospital's accounts payable and receivable units, and saw the same thing there, where an invoice for $.25 was sent out. When I saw it (many, many times, not just once), I was dumbfounded. The cost of processing that $.25 invoice was vastly more than the revenue coming in. It seems that the bean counters are so invested in collecting every dime that they don't bother to look at the profitability of the transaction. So, they'll spend a dollar to collect a dime, just to be "efficient." They don't want to leave anything on the table, even if that last little bit costs way more than what's recovered. The government is particularly spiteful with this, which suggests that taxes are NOT about collecting revenue, but about screwing over the producers.
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  • Posted by johnpe1 8 years, 11 months ago
    Good Mental Twist, Carl !

    I wish that they were so inefficient that they would stay at home
    and collect no taxes at all, some days. . most of the stuff which
    the government does with my bucks is illegitimate! -- j
    .
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  • Posted by Herb7734 8 years, 11 months ago
    Good Gravy!
    The more inefficient the better? I like it. Wish I had thought of it. However, since I fear the government (they have more guns than me) Inefficiency also means mistakes, and mistakes made on citizens in a negative way can irrevocably damage them. The IRS is a lumbering monster but also a quick draw artist who shoots first and asks questions later. It has been used by the powers-that-be in Washington to scare, intimidate and destroy perceived enemies.
    "there's a helluva good universe next door -- let's go." -- e. e. cummings
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  • Posted by term2 8 years, 11 months ago
    I think governments tax just up to the breaking point where the people revolt. So if the cost of collecting is less,the government just get s to keep more, but the overall tax take from the ciizens stays the same. The more the government gets to keep, the more control they can exert on us. Therefore, the goal should be to keep government very inefficient so its effects on personal liberty are less. After all, we really dont NEED most of the services our governments provide and we would be better off without them.
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  • Posted by $ blarman 8 years, 11 months ago
    I prefer the point argued by Dan Mitchell of the Cato institute. He argues that tax rates should be set at the point that encourages economic growth and still maintains the basic functions of government. He presents a pretty good rationale for his argument here:
    http://www.cato.org/publications/comm...

    Note that he presents the theory of the Laffer Curve, but he emphasizes that it isn't actually the revenue-maximizing point of the Curve we should focus on, but the economically-maximizing point.

    He also makes a great argument for the flat tax here: http://www.unitedliberty.org/articles...
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    • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 11 months ago
      Agreed but only if you are into fascism and accept the tax level you set will not be the tax level you pay in short order.

      Short story about Ashland, Oregon home of Sock or Southern Oregon State College which is now a University. For a town with that much brain power one wonders about the following.

      City fathers decided to have a sales tax and used restaurants or prepared foods as the camel's nose. One of the provisions was 1% but with 90 days notice the city council could raise it to 5%. After all only the tourists will pay it. It was narrowly defeated. Next up was an unfunded mandate from the feds for new city and water systems., Complete everything. City couldn't afford it in the time allowed. Think of the fines and besides we'll get almost automatic grants to help pay the bill but it's ...not ...quite...enough. But if we had that 1% tax then all is golden. This time it narrowly passed, The next day the 90 day notice was filed and three months later the locals began going to the next town to dine out the word got around and he tourist trade slacked. Eventually it recovered and last I heard the first sales tax in Oregon was widened to include other forms of business.

      For a college town they sure had a lot of dumb asses.

      That's income tax., Slice it. dice it, remix it, repackage it redefine it. It is still a gun to your head and so is this new version VAT on business only.

      Are you from a college town?
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      • Posted by $ blarman 8 years, 11 months ago
        "Agreed but only if you are into fascism and accept the tax level you set will not be the tax level you pay in short order. "

        ??? I'd appreciate a little more into your thought process here. The problem with raising taxes is that the more you raise them, the larger the costs on the economy as compared to the payback up to the point where all future increases actually begin damaging the economy. I don't really see that as a sliding scale subject to manipulation by politicians, but maybe that's just because I'm an idealist.

        And trust me, we've been dealing with a Democratic Mayor for quite some time now who tries to keep insisting that the city needs to raise taxes and impact fees and all kinds of things in order to facilitate a larger budget for social services, so your analogy isn't lost on me. We do have a major university here, but most of our business is high-tech.
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        • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 11 months ago
          With income tax you have no choice except cheating on your taxes by some other groups standards who have the sole right to change the rate with zero notice..

          With a consumption tax, as explained elsewhere, the citizen controls taxes and therefore government expenditures by spending decisions.

          One is fascist smal 'f' in that it is useful for those who want government over citizens and choose the method that says any means and completely - control.

          One is the opposite and lives up to the principles of freedom for those who choose citizens over government.

          Nothing more than that.

          Point is with the flat tax, the enhanced tax, the diverted through business tax government controls you. with the end user consumption tax you control that Mayor without resorting to buying the election results.
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          • Posted by $ blarman 8 years, 11 months ago
            So in my State, it used to be that the State Sales tax was 4%. Then the politicians persuaded everyone that in order to get through the hard times they needed to up that to 5%, but that it was only going to be temporary. They even wrote the expiration into the bill. It passed, but of course the government got dependent on having that extra money - even when they ran surpluses - and so when it came time for the automatic sunset to kick in, they hastily passed a bill to make the tax rate permanent. Then only a few short years ago they voted to up that rate yet again to 6%. So I'm not sure I buy the argument that any one tax rate is any more immune to political wrangling than another.

            Do I favor the idea of zero federal income taxes? Absolutely. I'm not really sure about the State side, however. I've lived in a state which had no income tax (as does my brother right now), and all that it does is shift taxation to property taxes. One can argue that one can have more local effect on property taxes because of representative government, but I'd be curious to see if that premise really holds, as in my experience, I find that assertion of extremely dubious credentials.
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  • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 11 months ago
    If you wanted proof Cruz and Paul are full time RInos and worse supporters of the socialist left you have only to look at the words VAT. That crosses out all the garbage on the republicans list short of Carly F. taking Hillary's place and using Jindal as a VP running mate for his vote getting power.

    Is there anyone, anyone out there stupid enough to think VAT which is a tax on an host of imbedded taxes will be paid by anyone except the consumer look in the mirror and say now I have seen the face of stupid.

    For the last time get real get a life and pay attention businesses DO NOT PAY taxes they collect taxes for the government and ldeduct the cost of collection in the Cost of Government column which comes right after the legitimate costs of doing business column and immediately precedes Profit.

    What a bunch of air head morons and you wanted these two as alternates to Hillary? Why? The left is going to get what they want either way but these to sneaks shouldn't be part of it.

    Rand Paul and Cruz are NOT Republicans nor do I think they are Republicans in Name Only they are just garden variety run of the mill left wing socialists. and with the use of that idiotic plan are not in the right wing of the left nor even the center.

    RANT RANT RANT....OK I'm done....

    Who does that leave ...Rubio and they haven't even used the Bimbo Brigade yet. that ought to prove interesting? Seven million in debt whose going pay for the hookers this time?


    Ediit they aren't Value Added they add nothing to the value of a product or service instead they are Value Subtracted. Thank God for Walmart and the Dollar stores or you would all be eating Chinese at French Restaurant prices.
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  • Posted by j_IR1776wg 8 years, 11 months ago
    Why should the government have the power to tax at all?
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    • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 11 months ago
      Because the majority of the people that count gave it to the government. Same as they gave them the power to launder tax dollars, and having given that power refused to do anything to take it back. Ergo Sum the country as a whole and in general deserves what it got and what it consistently one election after the other overwhelmingly voted for. I see this one going 95% to 5% in favor of whomever is elected. Just like most of the others. Assuredly no worse than 90% to 10%. But that is because i haven't reviewed all the State election laws.
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    • Posted by $ 8 years, 11 months ago
      For National protection on the federal level and infrastructure at the town/city/state level.
      Or do you think we could crowd fund everything by those self interested?
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      • Posted by j_IR1776wg 8 years, 11 months ago
        So with the US having 18 trillion in debt and around 120 trillion in unfunded mandates plus politicians at all levels stealing those taxes collected plus a runaway welfare system, I find myself in agreement with Webster and Marshall "...That the power of taxing it [the bank] by the States may be exercised so as to destroy it, is too obvious to be denied , and That the power to tax involves the power to destroy [is] not to be denied...".
        http://quotationsbook.com/quote/38275...

        Why are you so eager to fund America's destruction?
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        • Posted by $ 8 years, 11 months ago
          No one's eager, we need to shut down this beast and make them accountable.
          But as a community in consensus, (ideally) the only valid purpose of government is for protection of our nation, our property and our creator intended rights as Conscious Human Beings...(some of us anyway). We also need infrastructure inwhich we all use. We also need a better free market system to develop what we need and want as a community.
          That will remain true until each man can create everything he needs or wants, until we can travel through air and create our own power...only then can we eliminate infrastructure.
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        • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 11 months ago
          I was going to ask you the same thing..... Any chance of an explanation?
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          • Posted by j_IR1776wg 8 years, 11 months ago
            America is very close to being destroyed. If the government did not have the power to tax, we would not have the incredible debt load we now suffer under.

            Yes Carl I believe that Galt and the other gulchers would have gladly volunteered and crowd-sourced to defend their way of life should it have threatened with invasion.

            So would many, if not most Americans, do the same to protect ourselves, our families, and our property.

            You old codgers suffer from too much cynicism.
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            • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 11 months ago
              Hey I'm almost up to that stage but you said the magic word. If I could do 24 years infanrtry without threat of invasion just watch me shoot now! Foreign or Domestic. Of course you would have to bring back the Constitution and a few other things first.
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              • Posted by j_IR1776wg 8 years, 11 months ago
                I only had a seven-year obligation to the AR. I think it's going to require some shooting to get our Constitutional rights back.
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                • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 11 months ago
                  As any soldier would say I would prefer shooting ballots not bullets. That's almoast impossible now at some of the the State and larger city and county levels. Has to be done as locally as possible and one of the bullets you can shoot is, within your precinct, is encouraging a none of the above ballot for votes or assistance of any kind to Democrats and Republicans. Possibly if you are banded together enough can get some one on the ballot and then conduct a raid if the other side has a real weak candidate and areal strong candidate. The raiding party registers for the primary and supports the weak candidate then re-registers or doesn't re-register until afterwards and votes in the General for your candidate who immediately declares as a whatever but Not Republican or Democrat. That produces two ground swells. Imagine a State Party thinking they are going to control State Government only to find out a bunch of their new members have just re-registered and declared as Lbertarian, Consitutionalist, take your pick... and have formed a Liberty Coalition or a Constiuttional Freedom Coalition. and are acting on common issues as one.

                  Guerrilla warfare and a counter revolution all wrapped up in one package. Then make sure if you don't have it get recall on the ballot and in between the two year elections start recalls which wastes a lot of the two big partys time, effort and money.

                  There's more but that gives you the idea. For sure go after the winner take all vote stealing.
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                  • Posted by $ 8 years, 11 months ago
                    Maybe we should just learn from the radicals- (Rules for Radicals), but be truthful.
                    I'm engaged with the Twelve Visions Party, They advocate for the Prime Law of protection only budget as well as the Prime Law itself. I found in further study that the Prime law idea underlies the intentions of our constitution. tvpnc.com
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                    • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 11 months ago
                      Signed up on the mailing list. They didn't include Mexico so I put my official residence in the US although I don't live there that much. What is mentor program?
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                      • Posted by $ 8 years, 11 months ago
                        Like any other mentor program, one must be proficient to mentor others, answer their questions, start a local club house etc. (something I'd like to do but writing the next book and promoting my first takes much of my time. Mark Hamilton is definitely has an objectivist point of view. I learned about Ayn Rand in his manuscripts. I have incorporated Neothink concepts and discussions in my book.
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                        • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 11 months ago
                          In that case press on! When there are no other choices possible whatever is left no matter how radical...... etc. I've never fought a war without bullets before. But the principles are the same as our the odds. 50 50 win or lose. For the couch potatoes it's zero to 100 and lose. Bugler! Sound The Charge!
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                • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 11 months ago
                  As any soldier would say I would prefer shooting ballots not bullets. That's almoast impossible now at some of the the State and larger city and county levels. Has to be done as locally as possible and one of the bullets you can shoot is, within your precinct, is encouraging a none of the above ballot for votes or assistance of any kind to Democrats and Republicans. Possibly if you are banded together enough can get some one on the ballot and then conduct a raid if the other side has a real weak candidate and areal strong candidate. The raiding party registers for the primary and supports the weak candidate then re-registers or doesn't re-register until afterwards and votes in the General for your candidate who immediately declares as a whatever but Not Republican or Democrat. That produces two ground swells. Imagine a State Party thinking they are going to control State Government only to find out a bunch of their new members have just re-registered and declared as Lbertarian, Consitutionalist, take your pick... and have formed a Liberty Coalition or a Constiuttional Freedom Coalition. and are acting on common issues as one.

                  Guerrilla warfare and a counter revolution all wrapped up in one package. Then make sure if you don't have it get recall on the ballot and in between the two year elections start recalls which wastes a lot of the two big partys time, effort and money.

                  There's more but that gives you the idea. For sure go after the winner take all vote stealing.
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