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"He stands against modernity, rationality, science and, ultimately, the spontaneous creativity of open societies..."

Posted by WDonway 9 years, 1 month ago to Politics
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George Will offers an exceptionally powerful column on the Pope's performance as a "useful idiot" of left-wing causes, especially those that share the deep anti-modernism of the Church of Rome
SOURCE URL: http://www.newsmax.com/GeorgeWill/pope-francis-catholic/2015/09/20/id/692423/


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  • 15
    Posted by freedomforall 9 years, 1 month ago
    Will provides all the data needed to conclude that the pope's motive is to return the world to the 16th century when the church had a near captive near-starving audience.
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    • Posted by ewv 9 years, 1 month ago
      Will didn't say anything about the pope's motive to return to the 16th century. He tries to pin the results on his going along with the viro agenda, as if the pope wanted an improved life but was subverting his own goals for prosperity. He doesn't want prosperity. Will completely missed the fact that the pope denounced the entire Industrial Revolution because of its success over the last few hundred years. He wants everyone living like St. Francis of Assisi groveling in mystic subservience and asceticism.
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      • Posted by Herb7734 9 years, 1 month ago
        But isn't that, when you get right down to it, the basis for the entire left agenda? He wants everyone living like good old St. Frank, except those sanctioned by the inhabitants of the Vatican. They get the fine clothes, art, and roast beef.
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      • Posted by freedomforall 9 years, 1 month ago
        As I stated, Will provided the DATA NEEDED to CONCLUDE the pope's motive. That conclusion would be in agreement with your statements.
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        • Posted by ewv 9 years, 1 month ago
          The direct evidence is what the pope has said himself about his goals, which Will has ignored. You don't have to try to infer his motive from the results. The closest Will comes is identifying that the pope "stands against modernity, rationality, science and, ultimately, the spontaneous creativity of open societies". He doesn't say why the pope and the Church do that. It is not just a matter of economic statistics.
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  • 10
    Posted by SaltyDog 9 years, 1 month ago
    Someone will have to provide a dictionary for the Pontiff so he'll understand what George Will is talking about. Then again, maybe not. His Holiness will no doubt not be amused. Nope. Not at all.
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    • Posted by Herb7734 9 years, 1 month ago
      Will's column will give the Pope the opportunity to label Will as evil, when with all of his outward beneficence his is the true evil.
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      • Posted by ewv 9 years, 1 month ago
        But Will didn't dare say that, again leaving the fundamental premises unchallenged. Does he even recognize it?
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        • Posted by Herb7734 9 years, 1 month ago
          Perhaps not.
          But Will is a very public figure whose income depends on a following. If he gets too harsh in his criticism, he might lose some readers. That's Trump's big advantage, he doesn't care who he pisses off, and it is refreshing to the populace.
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          • Posted by ewv 9 years, 1 month ago
            My impression is that Will is secure enough that he writes what he believes. If he's worried about a backlash for taking on the Pope, then he's already in trouble for writing that the Pope "stands against modernity, rationality, science...", which is all true even though it doesn't go far enough to the roots of why.

            Trump is at least for now popular for refreshingly standing up to the establishment, but is already tuning his approach for political effect while exploiting the image. If he gets into office with his pragmatism and "Let's make a deal" game without regard for principle we will all find it much less than "refreshing".

            This is the frightening anti-intellectual vacuum that confronts us. Most are afraid to even look at the philosophical basis and content of a proponent of 1000 year old religious renunciation and its consequences in reality, uncritically and ostentatiously pandering to it while simultaneously putting a complete unprincipled pragmatist anything-goes deal maker into top popularity politically. Has there ever been a more complete evasion of the importance of ideas and their relation to practical life on earth?
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  • Posted by wiggys 9 years, 1 month ago
    It is the pope's greatest pleasure as is 0's to see the world back in poverty. Mr. Will certainly makes excellent points but these two fools with the help of governments are in fact at this time turning the clock back so those already living in poverty will have many more joining them as has already occurred.
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  • Posted by DrZarkov99 9 years, 1 month ago
    I try to tell my Catholic friends that once in a while, God sends them a corrupt, venal, or destructively ignorant Pope to remind them their faith is Christianity, not Papism. Pope John Paul II was the kind of courageous Vicar of Christ who inspired by daring to challenge the powerful, and was proud of the moral behavior the church promoted. Francis is at best delusional, making deals with totalitarian, soulless monsters, thinking he's doing good, when he only extends the existence of many in hell on Earth.
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  • Posted by LibertyBelle 9 years, 1 month ago
    But doesn't George Will overlook a solution that
    Pope Francis might possibly propose? A slowing
    of population growth?--Oh, that's right, the Church
    forbids its members the use of contraceptives. (Ex-
    cept abstinence, including in marriage). (See
    "Humanae Vitae" by Pope Paul VI).
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    • Posted by ewv 9 years, 1 month ago
      His latest encyclical includes a blending of the anti contraceptive, anti abortion dogma with viro 'sustainability' rhetoric. Fetuses, eggs, etc. are creatures of "God's Creation" which he insists we have a duty to "sustain".
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  • Posted by $ allosaur 9 years, 1 month ago
    I was baptized as an infant into the Catholic Church. Then came the childhood indoctrination.
    As a young man I read a book called The Bad Popes. These are extreme examples but I've come to think that a pope is just a man as fallible as others.
    Having re-read the rules of this board (and I did need that refreshment), I'm not going to get into what I believe now.
    Let's just say I'm no longer a Catholic, though I did once get into an online argument with a Catholic who claimed I'd forever be a Catholic for being baptized that way.
    Dude made me think of Italians never being able to the freaking Mafia.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bad...
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    • Posted by ewv 9 years, 1 month ago
      It's much worse than popes not being "infallible" and much worse than the record of only the "bad popes". It's all bad because of its foundation in mystic faith in the supernatural, duty to sacrifice, and a subservient life of asceticism -- all repeated in the Pope's latest Encyclical and which the current popular commentary, including Will's, is ignoring.
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      • Posted by $ allosaur 9 years, 1 month ago
        You have a right to your opinion.
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        • Posted by plusaf 9 years, 1 month ago
          Yeah, allo- many decades ago I used to say it the way you implied and I inferred...

          "You have a right to your opinion... as stupid and as non-reality-based as it is..."

          :)
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          • Posted by $ allosaur 9 years, 1 month ago
            LOL! Well, thanks!
            I have a background many lack.
            For 7 years during the 70s, I was a bush league newspaper reporter in a rough around the edges rural county who at times received threats.
            After that, I was an Alabama corrections officer who worked at a maximum security prison for 21 years.
            After that, I semi-retired off-and-on worked for 4 different security guard companies (one hired me twice) since 2003.
            So guess what I am used to doing? Confrontations. Standing up to somebody.
            I've been called every foul name in the book and more than once.
            One exception! I've never been called a "dirty screw" like in the old prison movies.
            I said as much to three inmates during the 90s. Think I was shaking down a cell or something.
            I told them I wanted to hear someone call me a dirty screw. I even did so talking like James Cagney or Edward G. Robinson.
            "Nyah! Ya dirty screw!"
            But they just looked at me with glum faces and were too scared to do it.
            How disappointing.
            Waaa!
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            • Posted by RevJay4 9 years, 1 month ago
              I luv your sense of humor, allosaur. Of course, with your background you had to have a great sense of humor.
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              • Posted by $ allosaur 9 years, 1 month ago
                It's a great stress reliever. I have outlived the life expectancy of a corrections officer by 10 years.
                That bandit I keep picking up on my 6 o'clock, psst he's right below me here, could not make it with that kind of work.
                He's wound too tight.
                Not only did I outlast most corrections officer for years on the job, I've outlived quite a few.
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            • Posted by ewv 9 years, 1 month ago
              This is a forum for rational discussion associated with Ayn Rand's philosophy of reason, not confrontations. It does not operate at the level of "foul names" and intimidation.
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              • Posted by plusaf 9 years, 1 month ago
                Well, as Heinlein might have put it...

                Thanks, Miss Grundy... and if you were to have your way, probably 85% of the posts here would/should be removed...

                Chill, STFU or just don't read the shit you don't approve of. Do YOU 'run this place'?

                If so, delete everything that offends you. If not, see if the folks who DO 'run this place' agree with you enough to do your deleting for you.

                Hugs! It sounds like you need some....
                :)
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                • Posted by ewv 9 years, 1 month ago
                  He publicly posted an explanation for his motives in deliberately being confrontational. Anyone has a right to respond to that. It has nothing to do with "running the place". Most people do not behave that way, though some do.
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        • Posted by ewv 9 years, 1 month ago
          We know that. This isn't a matter of political rights to have an "opinion". The mystical, ascetic, subservient religious sense of life is thoroughly corrupt to its roots. It's not a matter of competing sects and dynasties.
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          • Posted by $ allosaur 9 years, 1 month ago
            You're not going to change the way I think.
            And I'm not the only Christian on this board.
            The Gulch is an odd conservative place where discussion of religion is against the rules--or maybe only in a certain way.
            But what does the Gulch attract due to AS movies?
            Generally conservatives or a Constitution-clinging libertarian like myself, who used to be a Republican.
            And then we have these posts about such things as the pope and Kim Davis.
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            • Posted by ewv 9 years, 1 month ago
              allosaur: "You're not going to change the way I think. And I'm not the only Christian on this board. The Gulch is an odd conservative place where discussion of religion is against the rules--or maybe only in a certain way."

              You can believe whatever you want to but this in not a place to promote religion. It is not an "odd conservative place", it is not conservative at all, it is a forum for Ayn Rand's philosophy of reason and egoism. Ayn Rand was, in politics, a "radical for capitalism", not Reform Republican or a "conservative" "clinging" to anything, and as a consequence of her philosophy of reason she rejected all forms of faith in the supernatural as destructive, and consequently religious conservatism.

              Discussion of religion is not banned, but it has to be rational discussion, not promoting religion or professing faith. Religion is not the basis of discussion or a presumed criterion for moral and political evaluation. If you want religious acceptance there are other places you can go.

              "But what does the Gulch attract due to AS movies? Generally conservatives or a Constitution-clinging libertarian like myself, who used to be a Republican."

              Atlas Shrugged is not a political novel. Ayn Rand emphasized that she wrote it as a philosophical novel to present her view of the "ideal man" in all realms of life. Those who from whatever background are attracted to the sense of life portrayed in Atlas Shrugged but who don't know much about Ayn Rand and her ideas should be seeking the excitement of discovering the philosophy that made it possible. The political realm is only one consequence of that and is not all that is open to discussion here. Even topics here that are political often involve discussion of underlying principles of morality and political philosophy, and the proper approach to knowledge of them.

              As Ayn Rand famously said of her own work: "I shall say that I am not primarily an advocate of capitalism, but of egoism; and I am not primarily an advocate of egoism, but of reason. If one recognizes the supremacy of reason and applies it consistently, all the rest follows."

              "This -- the supremacy of reason -- was, is and will be the primary concern of my work, and the essence of Objectivism. (For a definition of reason, see Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology.) Reason in epistemology leads to egoism in ethics, which leads to capitalism in politics. The hierarchical structure cannot be reversed, nor can any of its levels hold without the fundamental one—as those who have tried are beginning to discover."

              A recent discussion of sources for finding out about Ayn Rand's philosophy can be found in the recent thread with this link http://www.galtsgulchonline.com/posts...
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              • Posted by $ allosaur 9 years, 1 month ago
                This is how to "objectively" mock religion on this board--
                Excuse me while I go beat on my tom-tom until I ooga-booga get Sasquatch to appear. Then I'll get back with ya on a ghost post.
                By the way, I found reactions to that link you posted somewhat revealing, since I've long admitted to not being the brightest bulb in the Gulch.
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            • Posted by $ allosaur 9 years, 1 month ago
              I'd like to modify the above first sentence to that statement pertaining to my faith.
              People here do influence my thinking in other topics. freedomforall comes to mind.
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    • Posted by RevJay4 9 years, 1 month ago
      dino, "once a catholic always a catholic" does not jive with the idea of "free will", in my mind. How does one make the decision, as an infant, to become a catholic without the faculty of actually knowing what is going on? Similar experience as yours, until I started questioning the nuns, etc. who told me to accept all they said on "faith". The older I got, the more I questioned and the more I was denounced for not just accepting. Free will and reason won. I won't argue with a catholic or any other devout believer, nor a child. Same thing.
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  • Posted by Temlakos 9 years, 1 month ago
    Pope Francis reminds me--does he remind anyone else here?--of Pope Paul VI. Does anyone remember Rand's specific criticism of the papal encyclical Populorum Progressio? Paul VI would almost accuse Francis of plagiarism.

    He has obviously thrown in with the mystics of science--those who lay claim to a secret knowledge, or a secret understanding, that no person, not trained in the sciences, could ever hope to achieve. Then again, remember where Francis came from: the Jesuit order. As mystical an order as the RCC has--dedicated to mysticism in science.
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    • Posted by ewv 9 years, 1 month ago
      It's not plagiarism, just a repetition of Church dogma of anti-reason, anti-life on earth present from the beginning. He gives his predecessors lot's of credit. He's even extolling St. Francis of Assisi. His latest Encyclical only repeated the same evil couched in the rhetoric of the modern Anti Industrial Revolution viros, who are attracted to his ideology.
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      • Posted by Temlakos 9 years, 1 month ago
        Not that many people here are going to care. But though Pope Francis probably got his spiel out of Populorum Progressio and a lot of other papal bulls, encyclicals, and excommunications, he did not get it out of the Bible. I could cite a lot of verses, beginning with not muzzling an ox when the ox is treading out grain, that flatly contradict Francis' sentiments.
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        • Posted by ewv 9 years, 1 month ago
          The mystic, duty oriented, ascetic sense of life is right out of the biblical sacred text. Bizarre poetry and myths about muzzling an ox is irrelevant. Sacred text is not the starting point of rational thought.
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  • Posted by $ Olduglycarl 9 years, 1 month ago
    First they go against the teachings and history of our biblical ancestors, and make it up on their own, only to eventually go against Everything we know to be good and successful. Our way has proven itself but they interfere and continue down the wrong path.
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  • Posted by $ Stormi 9 years, 1 month ago
    Like many, I was baptized Catholic, attended a Catholic school, and retain a moral code from those days. I no longer practice the religion. I also find myself at odds with the beliefs and actions of the current Pope, who I feel is either very ignorant of economics or a willing pawn for the socialist/communist UN. When he came out saying we had to do something about climate change, the UN mantra, I knew he was way off base. A real Pope would have left it in God's hands, not those of communists. Worse, he seems unaware he is being used to support environmental sanctions to gain control over the people he says he wants to help. How does it help to put all in poverty to equal the playing field? How can he think he is saving the Catholic religion by following those who would replace it with Gaia worship? I do not notice his giving away the vast fortunes of the Vatican in an effort to help the poor, so he is not completely a pawn. He clings to the idea as Will puts it, to go backward to a simple society, wherre people have diisease which is not treated, food shortages which will come from UN calls to eliminate red meat and put farmers out of business. Why does the Pope not question why the US uses science to heat the ionosphere and chenge climate for the worse? The Pope in short seems completely to lace reason.
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  • Posted by $ Abaco 9 years, 1 month ago
    "In his June encyclical and elsewhere, Francis lectures about our responsibilities, but neglects the duty to be as intelligent as one can be. This man who says "the church does not presume to settle scientific questions" proceeds as though everything about which he declaims is settled, from imperiled plankton to air conditioning being among humanity's "harmful habits." - Very good.
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