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How Do You Know You're Right?

Posted by khalling 9 years, 2 months ago to Humor
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little Objectivist humor there heh. :)


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  • Posted by Zero 9 years, 2 months ago
    No - it's communal! (Didn't you see the tweet?)
    If everyone agrees what's left to question?!
    Get on board or get out.

    No. Really.
    ----
    (Love the pic - KH!)
    (Flamethrowers. We need more flamethrowers.)
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  • Posted by Herb7734 9 years, 2 months ago
    "Truth is that which corresponds to reality."
    But the leftish philosophy holds that reality is subjective and is different for different people. If that is true (huh?) then there is nothing that is true, or for that matter false, so any answer is as good as any other answer and 2 + 2 = 3.14 or 4.13 or 1.34. Or 2+2 = 5 -- close enough.
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  • Posted by JCLanier 9 years, 2 months ago
    Really now...
    "Those who think they are always right are
    very irritating to those of us who are." ;)

    Seriously, I apply the math (logic, values, philosophical principles and experience, if applicable) then I draw a line, add it up and the sum total is as close as I can arrive to truth at that moment in time. For me it is a process to arrive to a "truth" but you know it when you get there- laser burning sharp. That's what I loved about Rand, you could not escape her logic, you knew she was right.
    This is a world of lazy thinkers. The "truth" requires "thinking" i.e., acquiring knowledge, processing, countering, calculating... all persistent hard work from which many abdicate.
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  • Posted by tdechaine 9 years, 2 months ago
    I assume Khalling wanted a serious answer.

    Start with a rational code of values supported by objective fundamental philosophical principles.
    Apply reason and logic, follow all the evidence, and your conclusion about anything will be right in the context of knowledge available.

    Where there is contradiction among individuals, only one side can be right - objectively right.
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    • Posted by $ WilliamShipley 9 years, 2 months ago
      That assumes that in the process of applying reason and logic you do not make an error. The fact that there is an actual reality does not guarantee that we properly interpret it.

      So one should always be cautious about knowing they are right.
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      • Posted by $ Olduglycarl 9 years, 2 months ago
        I think one comes from a better place when one is more concerned about getting it right instead of being right. I once wrote about this problem in context:
        Philosophy, like our connotation of truth, is not the end of a discussion. Philosophy is a way to organize what we may know at any given point in time. Once new knowledge comes to light, this organization of thoughts should adapt to that new knowledge.
        Truth is an end to a portion of a conversation; it only applies to the laws of nature and the physical laws of the universe. Still, at some level, as far as mankind is concerned, it applies to our present understanding of these laws.
        Facts, as my mentor so often says, are “often just someone’s opinion.” We should only use what is empirically observable, demonstratable and repeatable, as fact.

        Am I Right on these things? hahahahahahahahahahaa
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        • Posted by term2 9 years, 2 months ago
          If "right" is correctly observing reality, I suppose I am "right" about half the time. Most of the time I don't have all the facts but have to make estimates based on what I have first hand knowledge of
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      • Posted by tdechaine 9 years, 2 months ago
        Give an example:
        If reality is objective, how will applying reason and logic lead to error?
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        • Posted by $ WilliamShipley 9 years, 2 months ago
          Reality can be objective but complex. The knowledge of reality can be limited, perception can be flawed there are lots of possibilities for error in applying logic to reality that can lead us to making incorrect conclusions.

          Consider global warming. Many people argue about temperature trends, however the data generating those trends is manipulated by logic to standardize it. This manipulation may or may not be correct. The data used to come to conclusions may or may not match reality. No one person can perceive all the different measurements that go into declaring what the temperature actually is doing.

          There is a real answer, being sure we know what it is is trickier. We should not assume that because reality exists we know it perfectly.
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          • Posted by tdechaine 9 years, 2 months ago
            First, knowledge is contextual; one can be fully logical and right within that context.
            2nd, how is perception flawed?
            GW is not an example. Any data that is manipulated to prove a point is not done so with logic. Using all the evidence available, a logical conclusion has to match reality. I think you simply don't accept that reality is objective.
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            • Posted by $ WilliamShipley 9 years, 2 months ago
              Oh I absolutely accept that reality is objective. But our vision is limited to a specific spectrum, not identical for each person, we see things at a specific scale, but with different clarity. We need instrumentation to look at much of reality. Hearing, touch, all of our senses are limited to what they can perceive and these limitations vary from person to person.

              Two people can look at a pair of colors and one will perceive them as identical and the other will detect a difference. In this example the second person is correct because they have more accurate sensory information -- the first person can logically declare "I can perceive that they are the same and since there is a true reality, they are the same." and just be wrong.

              Science often requires logical chains to adjust and standardize data. These chains require assumptions, any of which could be in error. This means the conclusion, although logical could also be wrong. If you are performing logic on false information it doesn't come out well.
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              • Posted by 9 years, 2 months ago
                there is no such thing as perfect knowledge (if you are not a mysticist). You still make decisions, tests, further science. people believing in a flat world can still build a building :)
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                • Posted by $ WilliamShipley 9 years, 2 months ago
                  Negative knowledge is a sub-class of perfect knowledge that we can have. We can, for example, know that all swans are not white once we see a black one although we might have previously decided thy were based on our perceptions.

                  And absolutely, we can and do make decisions on the basis of imperfect knowledge. The question you triggered this discussion with "How do you know you are right?" is thus answered: "In most cases you can't be, you just have a working hypothesis."

                  I have noticed in discussions here that many people assume that the existence of a true, knowable, reality implies that they know what it is. Any issue sufficiently complex enough to be interesting to discuss has sufficient opportunities for error in analysis to avoid certainty.
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              • Posted by tdechaine 9 years, 2 months ago
                We are talking about objective issues, not colors et al. Once all information is shared, right can be determined. Questionable assumptions do not play a role here. E.g. in the GW debate, just look at the raw data and known causes and effects; no assumptions as those inputted in faulty models count.
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                • Posted by $ WilliamShipley 9 years, 2 months ago
                  Colors are objective issues. They really exist as objective attributes of objects to the extent that they reflect specific frequencies of light. We measure them with imperfect sensory organs.

                  Once 'all' information is shared, you might well be able to determine right. The problem is that in all but trivial cases you can't be sure you have 'all' information. For example in any discussion of the economy we rely on economic statistics which have vast opportunities for error in their collection.

                  There is a flaw in the classic Sherlock Holmes rule that "when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth" that is that in the real world you can never be sure you've examined all the possibilities. There are always possibilities that you haven't identified.

                  It's very difficult to come up with a simple example that we will disagree on the conclusion and agree that we can legitimately disagree. I can probably come up with things that we will disagree on, but then we won't agree that they are examples!
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                  • Posted by 9 years, 2 months ago
                    jeezus. I am cranky today will. so we will call it a day.
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                    • Posted by tdechaine 9 years, 2 months ago
                      You're missing a key point. When you debate someone and determining who is right and who is wrong, all participants collectively should have all the information necessary. One should be able to show where the other is wrong.
                      We can't look for information that is not available to us - knowledge is contextual.
                      I don't recall any time in my life where it was not possible to draw such a conclusion unless dealing with irrational people.
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                      • Posted by $ WilliamShipley 9 years, 2 months ago
                        The question, of course is whether the conclusion you were able to draw matched the actual reality.

                        Having all the information necessary in dealing with real world issues is far more complex than one would hope. The reality is that you usually have to come to conclusions with far less than the whole truth and thus your conclusions are potentially in error.

                        Knowledge may be contextual but reality is what it is. You may be able to build a house utilizing the idea that the world is flat because in that context it makes no difference. But the reality is that the world is not flat and that the decisions you make based on the assumption that it is will, in different contexts, no longer work.

                        There is an actual reality that if we actually know what it is our decisions will be valid in all contexts.
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                        • Posted by tdechaine 9 years, 2 months ago
                          Why do you assume that what you conclude with rational/logical thinking is likely to be in error?
                          Where does the "whole truth" come from if not already there?
                          Knowledge is gathered with a full grasp of reality; why do you think they are in conflict?
                          Why would a rational person do anything based on a false premise (e.g. the world is flat)?
                          Why do you think we can't perceive reality objectively?
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                          • Posted by $ WilliamShipley 9 years, 2 months ago
                            Your argument starts with the premise that we begin with full information. I think that in those situations sufficiently complex enough to be interesting, knowing full information is virtually impossible. What we actually do is work from a position of sufficient information, but sufficiency is a judgement call and may be in error. So we don't have a full grasp of reality, but only a partial one.

                            And, logic and reasoning while theoretically capable of being perfectly performed are also capable of error, especially if there are many complex factors to be considered. The fact that it can theoretically be done doesn't mean that it has done in any case.

                            The "world is flat" argument has been used in a number of discussions of a example of the efficacy of working with imperfect information.

                            Why do I think we can't perceive reality objectively? We have sense organs, they have limitations. For example we believe objects are solid although physics tells us they are almost completely empty. In fact there is some question if anything in there is solid but that goes beyond my level of physics.

                            So the idea that we are dealing with solid objects is one of those examples of imperfect information that we deal with routinely.

                            To be clear, the fact that the world is real and that we are capable of perceiving it to some degree and using reason to analyze it means that there is always a right answer to be found. I just don't think that we are usually in possession of it, only successively better approximations.
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    • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 9 years, 2 months ago
      to cross check apply moral values and see if the answer holds up in practical use. It's either useful or it's useless. That provides a way of checking for false premises or focusing in on them. Is this of any value to me or this is the best thing since popcorn Rand wrote there are three opinions mine, yours and a compromise. In practice Two of them are wrong.
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  • Posted by Esceptico 9 years, 2 months ago
    All conclusions must be open to new credible evidence and use the scientific method for all beliefs. The scientific method, in its idealized form, is a cycle of observation, synthesis, hypothesis, and prediction that leads to more observations. This holds true for all conclusions except axioms, which as Rand stated, are so basic that any attempt to refute them requires their use.
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    • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 9 years, 2 months ago
      but at each step of the way if isn't found practical or useful there is no way to tell if the path being followed has some purpose or is just fiddling around marking time. Pragmatcally speaking. the other way of putting that is beating one's head against the wall and failing to admit failure. Socialist Economics for example or voting for Democrats and Republicans.
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      • Posted by Esceptico 9 years, 2 months ago
        That is why one must always keep an open mind.
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        • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 9 years, 2 months ago
          and mind the spelling ' pragmatically. Having deep sixed the left on economics then how might legitimate economics be improved or guarded against criminal behavior.? The start point would be Socialism which by definition is heavily government controlled has never succeeded even while being raided by criminal elements while Capitalism has never been unfettered. To what degree should we control capitalism or at least provide some sort of a protection against criminal activities.
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          • Posted by Esceptico 9 years, 2 months ago
            The question is: How do you know you are right? This is a general question of epistemology, not any specific issue. What does all of what you are saying have to do with the question?
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  • Posted by johnpe1 9 years, 2 months ago
    our philosophy has served the ages without having a clear explanation;;;
    the fact that we now have one makes it more likely to serve more,
    in the future, since naming something makes it easier to find it!!! -- j
    .
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  • Posted by teri-amborn 9 years, 2 months ago
    Very often I find that what is "right" is often temporarily hidden by those who seek to change reality.

    I know that I am right because eventually reality is on my side.
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