Depending on what you read -- there is also a lot of misinformation from some who misrepresent it, don't understand it and/or are here for contrary purposes.
First of all, the non-fiction anthologies by Ayn Rand, and her collaborators are the best start.
The Virtue of Selfishness should be very first, if you have not read it yet. After that, you can set your own course as long as you hit all the points. Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology Capitalism: the Unknown Ideal Philosophy: Who Needs It? The Romantic Manifesto The Voice of Reason: Essays in Objectivist Thought (Leonard Peikoff, Editor) The Return of the Primitive (formerly The New Left: The Anti-Industrial Revolution)
After those - or along with them, if you wish - the Ayn Rand Institute and The Atlas Society both have educational materials.
I have recommended to the Gulch The Culture of Reason Center (http://thecultureofreasoncenter.com/). Among their offerings are the original lectures "Basic Principles of Objectivism" by Nathaniel Branded and others. Created by the Nathaniel Branden Institute before The Split, they are the best summary of fundamental principles, especially, if you prefer listening to reading. The Culture of Reason Center also has a series of self-tests on the fundamental non-fiction works of Ayn Rand. It is a good way to benchmark your progress. In addition to evaluating your own knowledge, they actually can serve a discussion group. In the Gulch here: http://www.galtsgulchonline.com/posts...
You can also find discussions here, of course, as well as at RebirthofReason.com, ObjectivistLiving.com, and ObjectivismOnline.com. I caution you, however, that not everyone who enjoyed the Atlas Shrugged movies has an authoritative opinion on what Objectivism is. To start, stick with the canon.
Additional important books in the non-fiction category, emphasizing the comprehensive, systematic philosophical nature of Ayn Rand's ideas are:
Ayn Rand, For the New Intellectual, 1960 Allan Gotthelf, On Ayn Rand, Wadsworth, 2000 (out of print due to publisher financial problems, search for a used copy) Leonard Peikoff, Objectivism: The Philosophy of Ayn Rand, 1991
Allan Gotthelf and Leonard Peikoff were associates of Ayn Rand and are experts on the philosophy. Leonard Peikoff founded the Ayn Rand Institute and is now retired. The late Allan Gotthelf organized and for many years ran the Ayn Society special philosophic interest group within the American Philosophical Society.
Ayn Rand's For the New Intellectual contains a major title essay and otherwise consists of excerpts from the more philosophical parts of the novels. From the preface:
[This book] "contains the main philosophical passages from my novels and presents the outline of a new philosophical system. The full system is implicit in these excerpts (particularly in Galt's speech), but its fundamentals are indicated only in the widest terms and require a detailed, systematic presentation in a philosophical treatise. I am working on such a treatise at present; it will deal predominantly with the issue which is barely touched upon in Galt's speech: epistemology, and will present a new theory of the nature, source and validation of concepts. This work will require several years; until then, I offer the present book as a lead or a summary for those who wish to acquire an integrated view of existence. They may regard it as a basic outline; it will give them the guidance they need, but only if they think through and understand the exact meaning and the full implications of these excerpts"...
"For those who may be interested in the chronological development of my thinking, I have included excerpts from all four of my novels. They may observe the progression from a political theme in "We the Living to a metaphysical theme in Atlas Shrugged.
"These excerpts are necessarily condensed summaries, because the full statement of the subjects involved is presented, in each novel, by means of the events of the story. The events are the concretes and the particulars, of which the speeches are the abstract summations. When I say that these excerpts are merely an outline, I do not mean to imply that my full system is still to be defined or discovered; I had to define it before I could start writing Atlas Shrugged. Galt's speech is its briefest summary."
"Until I complete the presentation of my philosophy in a fully detailed form, this present book may serve as an outline or a program or a manifesto."
"For reasons which are made clear in the following pages, the name I have chosen for my philosophy is Objectivism."
She never wrote the "presentation in a fully detailed form" for her philosophy in the form she described, but there are equivalents available. She published one part of the planned "detailed, systematic presentation in a philosophical treatise" she described above emphasizing "dealing with ... epistemology [to] present a new theory of the nature, source and validation of concepts" in her Introduction to Objectivism Epistemology, listed by Mike above. IOE is very important, but is not the place to start reading about Ayn Rand. It is almost exclusively on the nature of concepts (including the nature of the axiomatic concepts); the 2nd edition includes two appendices, one with Leonard Peikoff's essay on propositions, "The Analytic Synthetic Dichotomy", and the other with about a third of the workshops on epistemology she conducted to answer serious, detailed questions from a small group.
Leonard Peikoff's recorded 12-lecture course The Philosophy of Objectivism from the 1970s http://campus.aynrand.org/classroom/74/ systematically covers the whole scope of her philosophy in a far more philosophical manner in more detail than had previously been presented, and Ayn Rand was sometimes present to answer questions.
His own detailed treatise Objectivism: The Philosophy of Ayn Rand is based on that lecture series and expanded in more detail. It took the place of the major, comprehensive work that Ayn Rand had once intended to write herself. It begins with the metaphysical basis of the philosophy and the reasons for it, and the epistemology (but only summarizes the nature of concepts covered in detail in Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology), and continues to build systematically through the ethics, political philosophy, and philosophy of art: Look at the table of contents at https://estore.aynrand.org/p/522/obje...
For those interested in Ayn Rand's philosophy, this tells you the most serious, systematic accounts to read and listen to -- along with many other essays not as technical, but very important in the topics they emphasize, such as "Philosophy: Who Needs It?", "Causality Versus Duty", "Metaphysical Versus the Man Made", "Philosophy and Sense of Life", and many more, included in the non-fiction books listed by Mike (and which also include Ayn Rand's own essential essays on the basic principles of ethics, politics and art).
Also crucial is Leonard Peikoff's lecture series on the History of Philosophy, which explains the historical development of the major philosophical positions, how they were connected and influenced one another, how they differ from Objectivism, and the Objectivist answer to philosophic problems in the historical context. http://www.galtsgulchonline.com/posts...
Allan Gotthelf's On Ayn Rand is much briefer as part of a professional series summarizing philosophers within 100 pages each. It covers the main features of Ayn Rand's philosophy, but organized differently, beginning with the famous Ayn Rand "sense of life". It is also very well written, but if you are not familiar with philosophy you may find some parts of it too condensed to appreciate the significance of all the points made.
Re-reading Galt's speech in Atlas Shrugged after going through this material will show you how much of the significance you missed on a first reading of Galt's speech without it, and more fully what Ayn Rand meant when she wrote, "The full system is implicit in these excerpts (particularly in Galt's speech), but its fundamentals are indicated only in the widest terms".
Recognizing Ayn Rand's works as a serious, comprehensive intellectual development, you can see why Mike said that liking Atlas Shrugged does not imply a knowledge of Ayn Rand's ideas. It's a full, systematic (and radically different) philosophy with a content of its own, it doesn't mean whatever other ideas or feelings people bring with them when they like the novel or become attracted to aspects of the non-fiction they happen to read. It doesn't mean the preconceptions of either its fans or its detractors (some of whom have an axe to grind). You can discuss it here or anywhere else, but there is no substitute for learning what it is first hand.
What I have noticed is how quickly pomposity shuts down a post and stops the conversation. I regret the loss. It also squeezes out that wonderful sense of life that makes the Gulch unique.
I was writing my reply when Rocky's one-liner slipped in ahead of me. I Saved, went out, came back to edit, and saw hers... then yours... And I stand by what I wrote.
I had no doubt you would. I also saw your comment the other day regarding Objectivism and religion. Note how you shut down discussion with your attempts at intimidation. FUN
Mike: You better be careful or you'll start resembling Leonard Peikoff. Now there, was a real pompous ass for you. However, he smoked like a stopped up chimney, and I'll bet you don't.
Thank you to Mike and ewv. I knew of some of the sites but not all.
ARI has changed over time. There was a time (over a decade ago) when The Atlas Society was the better site because ARI was too closed in thinking and too protective of Ayn Rand's work. Understand that Leonard Peikoff was entrusted with a difficult task so his position was understandable, yet it made new material hard to accept, including people who were not totally loyal. The Split was also a problem
Now that ARI is run by Yaron Brook and Dr Peikoff is freer to run an excellent podcast - it is an enjoyable, informative, and insightful source and more friendly than lectures can sometimes be.
Yaron Brook is an excellent speaker and under his hand ARI has increased materials remarkably. There are classes, lectures, a radio program, and other activities. Most of it is free to the user with no loyalty oaths or such. So the older attitudes toward ARI no longer apply.
Nathaniel and Barbara Branden are both dead and so the Split is becoming history.
Each of you might consider what you enjoy and the form it takes. I read Ayn Rand's novels before most of the non fiction was written and enjoyed the stories and characters as fiction. Some people don't like fiction and perhaps should read the non fiction instead and come back to skim the novels later. I feel they miss a lot but that is a personal choice - they may feel I am not as intellectual since I like stories.
For those who like fiction read Anthem first and if you like it you may become hooked on her ideas. Those who want non fiction start with any of the suggestions given or The Virtue of Selfishness if ethics is your main interest.
The movie was necessarily a shortened version as is any epic novel that is done as a movie. More was left out than included. If you like the movie or if you feel it was lacking depth, either way, read Atlas Shrugged to learn about the characters and story as well as Ayn Rand's philosophy.
I don't mean this to sound trite, but use as a source your eyes, ears and power of reason. Don't be afraid to see what you see, hear what you hear, and think what you think.
Salty Dog, your have the simplicity and also the depth of Yoda. Agree with you, I do. Don't be afraid to read Rand in her own words, reread, until it becomes a part of you and you feel what she meant. I first studied her in philosophy class, transitioned to one of her fiction writings, one after another, and then to "Capitalism: the Unknown Ideal", and continued on, until my readings had filled a complete shelf, there to reference when needed. Although I did not understand everything she did, I did understand what she thought. I have copies of her interviews on tape, and even a few analysis by others she worked with, although, I do not like the once-removed way of relating. I truly believe there is something there form everyone if they just listen with their eyes. The catch is, start with what excites you and journey on.
Once you have had a chance to read some of the Rand polemics, I would suggest "The Ayn Rand Lexicon Objectivism from A to Z" edited by Harry Binswanger New American Library. In it, he lists excerpts of just about every subject that she and close associates ever wrote about and references where the excerpts come from. It's a sort of Cliff's Notes on Objectivism.
"For the New Intellectual" would likely be best for a beginner. It has the main essence. But for learning MORE, well, more than what? Depends on how much the person already knows.
if you have a serious person who wants to learn fast, I would point them to 3 parts of AS::: the value of money, the meaning of sex, and Galt's speech. . in that order. if the first 2 get 'em hooked, they might do the speech. -- j
p.s. but you said "more about" ... okay, the Lexicon and Capitalism, The Unknown Ideal might be twins. .
The Virtue of Selfishness should be very first, if you have not read it yet.
After that, you can set your own course as long as you hit all the points.
Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology
Capitalism: the Unknown Ideal
Philosophy: Who Needs It?
The Romantic Manifesto
The Voice of Reason: Essays in Objectivist Thought (Leonard Peikoff, Editor)
The Return of the Primitive (formerly The New Left: The Anti-Industrial Revolution)
After those - or along with them, if you wish - the Ayn Rand Institute and The Atlas Society both have educational materials.
I have recommended to the Gulch The Culture of Reason Center (http://thecultureofreasoncenter.com/). Among their offerings are the original lectures "Basic Principles of Objectivism" by Nathaniel Branded and others. Created by the Nathaniel Branden Institute before The Split, they are the best summary of fundamental principles, especially, if you prefer listening to reading. The Culture of Reason Center also has a series of self-tests on the fundamental non-fiction works of Ayn Rand. It is a good way to benchmark your progress. In addition to evaluating your own knowledge, they actually can serve a discussion group. In the Gulch here:
http://www.galtsgulchonline.com/posts...
In all there are over 50 books by and about Ayn Rand. See here:
http://necessaryfacts.blogspot.com/20...
You can also find discussions here, of course, as well as at RebirthofReason.com, ObjectivistLiving.com, and ObjectivismOnline.com. I caution you, however, that not everyone who enjoyed the Atlas Shrugged movies has an authoritative opinion on what Objectivism is. To start, stick with the canon.
Additional important books in the non-fiction category, emphasizing the comprehensive, systematic philosophical nature of Ayn Rand's ideas are:
Ayn Rand, For the New Intellectual, 1960
Allan Gotthelf, On Ayn Rand, Wadsworth, 2000 (out of print due to publisher financial problems, search for a used copy)
Leonard Peikoff, Objectivism: The Philosophy of Ayn Rand, 1991
Allan Gotthelf and Leonard Peikoff were associates of Ayn Rand and are experts on the philosophy. Leonard Peikoff founded the Ayn Rand Institute and is now retired. The late Allan Gotthelf organized and for many years ran the Ayn Society special philosophic interest group within the American Philosophical Society.
Ayn Rand's For the New Intellectual contains a major title essay and otherwise consists of excerpts from the more philosophical parts of the novels. From the preface:
[This book] "contains the main philosophical passages from my novels and presents the outline of a new philosophical system. The full system is implicit in these excerpts (particularly in Galt's speech), but its fundamentals are indicated only in the widest terms and require a detailed, systematic presentation in a philosophical treatise. I am working on such a treatise at present; it will deal predominantly with the issue which is barely touched upon in Galt's speech: epistemology, and will present a new theory of the nature, source and validation of concepts. This work will require several years; until then, I offer the present book as a lead or a summary for those who wish to acquire an integrated view of existence. They may regard it as a basic outline; it will give them the guidance they need, but only if they think through and understand the exact meaning and the full implications of these excerpts"...
"For those who may be interested in the chronological development of my thinking, I have included excerpts from all four of my novels. They may observe the progression from a political theme in "We the Living to a metaphysical theme in Atlas Shrugged.
"These excerpts are necessarily condensed summaries, because the full statement of the subjects involved is presented, in each novel, by means of the events of the story. The events are the concretes and the particulars, of which the speeches are the abstract summations. When I say that these excerpts are merely an outline, I do not mean to imply that my full system is still to be defined or discovered; I had to define it before I could start writing Atlas Shrugged. Galt's speech is its briefest summary."
"Until I complete the presentation of my philosophy in a fully detailed form, this present book may serve as an outline or a program or a manifesto."
"For reasons which are made clear in the following pages, the name I have chosen for my philosophy is Objectivism."
She never wrote the "presentation in a fully detailed form" for her philosophy in the form she described, but there are equivalents available. She published one part of the planned "detailed, systematic presentation in a philosophical treatise" she described above emphasizing "dealing with ... epistemology [to] present a new theory of the nature, source and validation of concepts" in her Introduction to Objectivism Epistemology, listed by Mike above. IOE is very important, but is not the place to start reading about Ayn Rand. It is almost exclusively on the nature of concepts (including the nature of the axiomatic concepts); the 2nd edition includes two appendices, one with Leonard Peikoff's essay on propositions, "The Analytic Synthetic Dichotomy", and the other with about a third of the workshops on epistemology she conducted to answer serious, detailed questions from a small group.
Leonard Peikoff's recorded 12-lecture course The Philosophy of Objectivism from the 1970s http://campus.aynrand.org/classroom/74/ systematically covers the whole scope of her philosophy in a far more philosophical manner in more detail than had previously been presented, and Ayn Rand was sometimes present to answer questions.
His own detailed treatise Objectivism: The Philosophy of Ayn Rand is based on that lecture series and expanded in more detail. It took the place of the major, comprehensive work that Ayn Rand had once intended to write herself. It begins with the metaphysical basis of the philosophy and the reasons for it, and the epistemology (but only summarizes the nature of concepts covered in detail in Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology), and continues to build systematically through the ethics, political philosophy, and philosophy of art: Look at the table of contents at https://estore.aynrand.org/p/522/obje...
His recorded Introduction to Objectivism is a brief, 1 1/4 hour summary lecture and question period. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlJD0...
For those interested in Ayn Rand's philosophy, this tells you the most serious, systematic accounts to read and listen to -- along with many other essays not as technical, but very important in the topics they emphasize, such as "Philosophy: Who Needs It?", "Causality Versus Duty", "Metaphysical Versus the Man Made", "Philosophy and Sense of Life", and many more, included in the non-fiction books listed by Mike (and which also include Ayn Rand's own essential essays on the basic principles of ethics, politics and art).
Also crucial is Leonard Peikoff's lecture series on the History of Philosophy, which explains the historical development of the major philosophical positions, how they were connected and influenced one another, how they differ from Objectivism, and the Objectivist answer to philosophic problems in the historical context. http://www.galtsgulchonline.com/posts...
Allan Gotthelf's On Ayn Rand is much briefer as part of a professional series summarizing philosophers within 100 pages each. It covers the main features of Ayn Rand's philosophy, but organized differently, beginning with the famous Ayn Rand "sense of life". It is also very well written, but if you are not familiar with philosophy you may find some parts of it too condensed to appreciate the significance of all the points made.
Re-reading Galt's speech in Atlas Shrugged after going through this material will show you how much of the significance you missed on a first reading of Galt's speech without it, and more fully what Ayn Rand meant when she wrote, "The full system is implicit in these excerpts (particularly in Galt's speech), but its fundamentals are indicated only in the widest terms".
Recognizing Ayn Rand's works as a serious, comprehensive intellectual development, you can see why Mike said that liking Atlas Shrugged does not imply a knowledge of Ayn Rand's ideas. It's a full, systematic (and radically different) philosophy with a content of its own, it doesn't mean whatever other ideas or feelings people bring with them when they like the novel or become attracted to aspects of the non-fiction they happen to read. It doesn't mean the preconceptions of either its fans or its detractors (some of whom have an axe to grind). You can discuss it here or anywhere else, but there is no substitute for learning what it is first hand.
Pomposity is
An Atrocity
But a pomp ass
Is a circum stance.
Whew! I thought for a bit you were going for circumcise.
Been there, done that.
You better be careful or you'll start resembling Leonard Peikoff. Now there, was a real pompous ass for you. However, he smoked like a stopped up chimney, and I'll bet you don't.
ARI has changed over time. There was a time (over a decade ago) when The Atlas Society was the better site because ARI was too closed in thinking and too protective of Ayn Rand's work. Understand that Leonard Peikoff was entrusted with a difficult task so his position was understandable, yet it made new material hard to accept, including people who were not totally loyal. The Split was also a problem
Now that ARI is run by Yaron Brook and Dr Peikoff is freer to run an excellent podcast - it is an enjoyable, informative, and insightful source and more friendly than lectures can sometimes be.
Yaron Brook is an excellent speaker and under his hand ARI has increased materials remarkably. There are classes, lectures, a radio program, and other activities. Most of it is free to the user with no loyalty oaths or such. So the older attitudes toward ARI no longer apply.
Nathaniel and Barbara Branden are both dead and so the Split is becoming history.
Each of you might consider what you enjoy and the form it takes. I read Ayn Rand's novels before most of the non fiction was written and enjoyed the stories and characters as fiction. Some people don't like fiction and perhaps should read the non fiction instead and come back to skim the novels later. I feel they miss a lot but that is a personal choice - they may feel I am not as intellectual since I like stories.
For those who like fiction read Anthem first and if you like it you may become hooked on her ideas. Those who want non fiction start with any of the suggestions given or The Virtue of Selfishness if ethics is your main interest.
The movie was necessarily a shortened version as is any epic novel that is done as a movie. More was left out than included. If you like the movie or if you feel it was lacking depth, either way, read Atlas Shrugged to learn about the characters and story as well as Ayn Rand's philosophy.
for a beginner. It has the main essence. But for
learning MORE, well, more than what? Depends
on how much the person already knows.
I would point them to 3 parts of AS::: the value of money,
the meaning of sex, and Galt's speech. . in that order.
if the first 2 get 'em hooked, they might do the speech. -- j
p.s. but you said "more about" ... okay, the Lexicon and
Capitalism, The Unknown Ideal might be twins.
.
We have an introduction to Objectivism in essentials: http://atlassociety.org/objectivism/a...
We have an introduction to Objectivist ideas through video commentaries on key scenes in the Atlas Shrugged movies: http://atlassociety.org/objectivism/a...
And I am here in the Gulch, willing to answer any questions.