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  • Posted by bsmith51 9 years, 2 months ago
    Growing up with brothers and sisters has a lot to do with learning to interact with the opposite sex as equals during the courting process, too. The only child is often a bit more entitled/demanding and less sensitive, IMHO.
    Courage is important. The snoozer looses.

    On the other hand, there's an old story of a wealthy young man who was considering marrying one of 3 women, but he was worried his wife might squander his hard earned wealth. So he gave each $1000 to see what they would do with the money.
    The first bought herself a lot of jewelry and clothes and got nothing for him.
    The second bought an equal amount of similar stuff for her and him.
    The third invested the money and made a significant profit, then treated both to something nice with that profit..
    Which one did he marry?
    The one with the biggest boobs.
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  • Posted by Herb7734 9 years, 2 months ago
    It is easy to joke about romantic love. These are cynical times and the belief in romantic love is rare to discover. Rand says a Hero seeks out another Hero. Not easy to find but it's a start. For this to be valid, the seeker first has to believe in him or herself as a hero. Interaction over time will confirm the seeker's judgment. Keeping in mind you are not likely to find John Galt, but much more likely to find Hank Reardon. One can be a hero and still have flaws. I don't know if there is such a person as an unflawed non-hero - possibly a saint in the biblical sense. Man O Man would that ever be a bore!

    I'm dusting off the rust, since I've been with my hero-wife 60 years. We've been high, low, at each other's throats but living without one another is absolutely unimaginable.
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    • Posted by $ 9 years, 2 months ago
      I think that it is crucial for the seeker and the prospective partner both to think of themselves as heroes; if only one or the other thinks that, the relationship will quickly fall apart. (That was the case for my ex-boyfriend and myself.)
      Congratulations on staying with your wife for 60 years! I'm very glad to hear it.
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      • Posted by Herb7734 9 years, 2 months ago
        One of the problems, as I see it, is that we have been trained from early childhood to be self-effacing. It has been drummed into us that it is bad to think of yourself as superior in any way. It amounts to racism, etc.etc.etc. As a result, there are many heroes who cannot bring themselves to say what they know they are. You'll hear "I'm no genius, but..." from geniuses. "I'm no hero, but....." from heroes. That is why I was emphatic in saying that first of all, the seeker must be able to proclaim him or herself. Otherwise the seeker is merely looking for a subservient relationship. A sort of Sancho Panza to Don Quixote.
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        • Posted by blackswan 9 years, 2 months ago
          Could it be that the "genius" doesn't think of himself as a genius (possibly because his definition of genius is very strict), because he falls short of his definition? Or could it be that he doesn't even think of himself in such terms? He just thinks of himself as an average, hard working Joe? To think of oneself as a "genius," one has to compare oneself to others; perhaps he doesn't do that.
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          • Posted by $ 9 years, 2 months ago
            Like Roark, I think that geniuses must be aware of their intelligence. As Peikoff said in a lecture, Roark takes into consideration others, but not like Keating does. The crucial difference is that Roark doesn't use the society's standards in judging his achievements. He holds himself to his own standards, and does not consider any others.
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            • Posted by Herb7734 9 years, 2 months ago
              Keep in mind that one is not born a Roark but evolves into it. Since we don't know Roark's pre-history, it's not possible to tell how he became what he was. In my case, I read The Fountainhead at age 14, but it wasn't until I was in my 30s and after Atlas that I was ready to truly espouse Objectivism. Up until then, I sort of accumulated it bit by bit until I realized that I was running with it full time. It is one thing to espouse a philosophy, but quite another to live by it.
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          • Posted by Herb7734 9 years, 2 months ago
            Hello Blackswan:
            Compare to others?
            "If you compare yourself to others you may become vain or bitter, for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself." -- Max Ehrmann. If you are honest with yourself and are tuned in to the real world, you won't need a comparison. You'll know. But if you're not a genius you can always be a hero.
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  • Posted by $ jlc 9 years, 2 months ago
    My thinking is along the likes of MichaelAa and blarman. People tend to fall in love with people in their proximity; people in their proximity often have similar backgrounds and beliefs. Even it the people in your proximity do not reflect your philosophy, you will be drawn to 'someone'...because that is hard-wired into us.

    I have read (and can recommend) the book Blink (I think I got a lead to this book here in the Gulch). It talks about fast decision making and how accurate such decisions are. Going with your 'first 10 sec impression' is actually a functional plan.

    Jan
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    • Posted by Mamaemma 9 years, 2 months ago
      Jan, I agree with the 'first 10 sec impression' idea. It took me a long time and some pain to trust my first impressions and not rationalize them away.
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      • Posted by $ jlc 9 years, 2 months ago
        You might be interested in Blink, by Malcolm Gladwell, then. A fascinating story of a Greek statue (khoro?) begins the book and interweaves all through the other chapters.

        Jan
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  • Posted by Technocracy 9 years, 2 months ago
    If anyone here could definitively answer that, they could put every dating service in the world out of business. Making themselves extremely wealthy at the same time.

    With any relationship involving two people you can't quantify the why's exactly from outside, only they can. And even their answers are subjectively theirs, their partner's are likely to be very different even though they share the relationship in common.
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    • Posted by $ 9 years, 2 months ago
      Thanks, Technoacracy. This is a good answer, and understandable. I don't believe it's random chance (nothing ever is), but if there is a similar value hierarchy like IR1776wg said and as is consistent with Objectivism, wouldn't each partner's explanation necessarily be similar, though not the same?
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      • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 9 years, 2 months ago
        On the other and it is almost impossible to live anywhere and not find someone you can fall in love with. Compatibility and respect for the other follow the initial requirements. Whatever they are. I chose hot pink for today.
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  • Posted by blackswan 9 years, 2 months ago
    From a man's perspective, there are three criteria. First is looks; it's the first thing you see about the person, and if she looks good, then you'll consider the rest. Second is intelligence. It can get really boring if she has no clue about what you're saying. Third is personality. Are her values, beliefs and behaviors compatible with yours? If so, then she's a keeper.
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    • Posted by plusaf 9 years, 2 months ago
      Worked for me... on my second try, and her third... and now after 'only' 25 years worth of anniversaries, we're still going strong.

      Yeah, she had a pretty face and nice tits. Still does, imnsho, but a common religious heritage (although I've gone atheist since marriage) and an affinity for pizza, chocolate, root beer... and appreciation of Atlas Shrugged (really!) helped build a foundation, too. I'm post-bariatric surgery now, down about 170 pounds, so pizza and soft drinks are pretty much off the menu for now (except chocolate...), some changes are to be expected, eh?

      But getting married a bit later in life, and with some advice from a Wonderful Rabbi... finding someone willing to support You in the areas that are Important to You AND Being willing to support Them in the areas important to them...

      Priceless.
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  • Posted by JCLanier 9 years, 2 months ago
    SarahM: This is a powerful subject... more often than not motivated by the subliminal. I had a professor/writer that stated, "You can love more than one person at any given time but you cannot be 'in-love' with more than one person at the same time." That the act of being in-love is exclusive to the beloved and an utterly personal journey where one is catapulted into a world of heightened sensation, where colors are more brilliant and the senses are exaggerated in smell, in touch, all of them, with the object of your desire at the center- all consuming. Our positive images are exalted and we feel energized beyond our known capacity, passionate and optimistic, limitless even. Yet too, our negative images of ourselves are brought to the forefront and we war with them, at once terrified to lose that which we know we cannot live without...
    Possessiveness raises it head and jealousy burns holes through our matrix and we know we will start to unravel...
    There is an absolute need to enter the mind of the beloved, (what do you believe, what do you want from life, what do you need, etc.), and the all encompassing urgency to possess the body of the beloved because only this, this need to crawl inside that which we have identified as the counterpart of ourselves, then and only then do we know that we are not alone. This ancient elemental force that pulls us into this union of mind and body where we are at once magnified and multiplied by the bonding of the 'two', life affirming, where we are made whole but not wholly by the other.
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  • Posted by jimjamesjames 9 years, 2 months ago
    AR: “ One falls in love with the embodiment of the values that formed a person’s character, which are reflected in his widest goals or smallest gestures, which create the style of his soul—the individual style of a unique, unrepeatable, irreplaceable consciousness. It is one’s own sense of life that acts as the selector, and responds to what it recognizes as one’s own basic values in the person of another.”
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    • Posted by NealS 9 years, 2 months ago
      Is that why creeps marry creeps, and movie stars marry movie stars, etc.? Perhaps it also has something to do with the old adage that you can never change a person. My wife and I both have changed for the worse, she became more like me, and I became more like her. Actually looking at it again it was probably more for the better of both of us.
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      • Posted by JCLanier 9 years, 2 months ago
        NealS: So... you acquired what she had that attracted you and she acquired what you had that attracted her- that over time you assimilated certain characteristics from each other. Maybe, seeing the reflection of ourselves in another, the mimicking of that person, to a degree, allows us to bond with the other... "For better or for worse".
        Anyway, I couldn't help laughing at your "for worse" comment! Humor, alleviates so many of the tribulations of the day-to-day, long term relationships. Those who have this gift are fortunate indeed.
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        • Posted by NealS 9 years, 2 months ago
          The "for worse" part of the comment in reality was her becoming more like me. I have the negative attributes, fear of getting too close to others, or letting others too close to me. Perhaps I learned this from being in combat in Vietnam, another benefit from the government. She was a much nicer person before, then started to change and become more like me over time. We're now kind of meeting closer to the middle. We still get along great, or is it just that we tolerate each other more? We're old enough, happy enough, and now secure enough that we will support each other to the end now. Life is good.
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      • Posted by jimjamesjames 9 years, 2 months ago
        I think the "opposites attract" applies only to magnets. Similarities (and I agree sexual attraction is the primary one) are what pulls people together. But as one brilliant observation states: "A man marries a woman hoping she won't change; A woman marries a man hoping he will change. Both are wrong."
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  • Posted by bsmith51 9 years, 2 months ago
    So much to consider: One study confirmed that the skimpier the clothes a young woman wore at a dance club, the more likely she was to be ovulating.
    There are lots of books and studies of your topic.

    As I've aged and seen relationships formed and broken around me (relatives, friends, etc.), my question is why people are and remain attracted to those who do not treat them well or even abuse them.
    Particularly, people get unhappy, divorce, and find someone else on whom to dump their baggage, and another unhappy relationship ensues..
    So the question to ask is not, "what's wrong with you," but, "what's wrong with me that I keep finding and establishing intimate relationships with people like you."
    If you truly love your self, then you should find a mate with that same characteristic. Be choosy; expect the best.
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    • Posted by johnpe1 9 years, 2 months ago
      I astonished the second woman of three to whom I proposed marriage,
      in my life, when I was able to tell her -- a studiously self-controlled
      person with whom I worked, in a seriously polite environment --
      when she was about to have her period. . I knew, because
      her breasts were ever-so slightly larger, just before. -- j
      .
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  • Posted by $ DriveTrain 9 years, 2 months ago
    Well there's the million dollar question, neh? It's like the question "Why does this art appeal to you?" on steroids.

    Initially it's physical attraction - like when you see this person from across the room and your sneakers melt onto the floor. Something I think people miss is that in addition to all of the physical beauty elements - individuality, facial symmetry, that all-important 0.7 hip/waist ratio (if you're talking about a man observing a woman,) muscles or boobage, etc. - every person expresses a part of their personality in a physical way, some more so than others: the way a person carries him/herself, the way they move, can convey an amazing amount of information about a person's personality, even in the first split second of seeing someone new.

    In the second half of that split second, the mind (or mine, at any rate,) does a lightning-fast go / no-go correlation with one's own values. It's still just an initial, visual appraisal, but people generally short-change the value of, and the mind's ability to make, that split-second appraisal. I remember David Kelley talking about people having a "love at first sight" experience with Rand's philosophy, remarking that (I paraphrase,) "Generally you have to learn a little more about... the beloved, before knowing whether it's the real thing."

    I've had both the experience of meeting someone whose physical appearance, mannerisms and body language were incredibly accurate indicators of that lady's personality, validated thoroughly after-the-fact, and the experience of meeting someone who projects a personality that turns out to be nothing like the actual fact as evaluated later. The former is far more the case than the latter, but the latter is also possible. So "love at first sight" is generally accurate, but still a crapshoot.

    Something I came to realize just a couple of years ago - from a television show, of all things - is that more than anything else I am in love with: goodness. That begs the question of defining the "good," but there is a projection of benevolence - or lack of it - that every person does, whether they try to or not, and which can be neither faked nor concealed. It's something that shows up, invariably, in the eyes.
    .
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    • Posted by $ 9 years, 2 months ago
      I agree that there's a lot to learn about a person from their first impression, but so far I've only met and fallen for men and women who are very different from my initial evaluation. Perhaps I need to work on that!
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    • Posted by plusaf 9 years, 2 months ago
      Thanks; I'd forgotten that aspect... it's been a theory of mine for decades that the whole "instant liking or dislike" thing really reflects how the human mind works. I picture it as, the senses take in the overall picture and VERY quickly correlate it with pretty much EVERYONE you've experienced before in your life, ending up with that go-no-go final 'binning.'

      Just my guess...

      I've also noticed what seems to be similarities between overall facial features of husbands and wives.... shape, skin color, hair color, etc. Like choosing someone because you like what you see when YOU look in the mirror, so maybe it's a comfort-zone kind of thing? Whatever.

      Early on, I noticed my wife and I had very similar skin coloring as well as very similar respiration rates! Gotta be a Ph.D. in that for someone, eh?


      :)
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  • Posted by $ blarman 9 years, 2 months ago
    Astoundingly enough, it's the first 30 seconds that make all the difference in the world. It's that first look that starts everything else. What strikes the fancy is still under study, but it is this concept that made speed dating an uncommonly effective matchmaking facilitator.
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  • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 9 years, 2 months ago
    I make a point of doing exactly that at least once a day. Today it was five times all at once when i rode the bus. Then I found out the five chica guapas (whoppas) all worked as table dancers. Still I was polite since I'm a guest down here south of the border and left the bus with a lot of lipstick on my cheeks. Oh youth is soooooo wasted on the young.

    PS it was two morado (purple) two red and one hot pink.

    First comes physical, then comes the rest, then back to physical or a trip to the pharmacy.
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  • Posted by johnpe1 9 years, 2 months ago
    Sarah, I have fallen hard and fast only once in 66 years, with
    the woman who introduced me to Ayn Rand, who is still a friend.
    of mine -- and she was stunning in 3 ways::: mental power,
    physical presence, and style. . the way she spoke to me in
    conversation showed that she could think fast with precision.
    finding that in a very attractive woman who "carried herself"
    in a fashion which showed self-respect and self-confidence
    just "got me."

    the distinguishing factor with her was the coincidence
    of these three factors -- which I had considered impossible.

    we never got physical, and had only a couple of dates.
    it was just a friendship, for her -- a strong one, but that
    was all it was.

    the friendship, however, is permanent. . my obsession over
    her lasted 23 years. . I grew out of it.

    I proposed marriage to three women, in my life, and two said yes.

    these three also "hit me" with those coinciding factors,
    but more slowly. . the first was unseen at first, playing a piano
    behind a screen in the university student center. . the second
    was a co-worker. . and one was a medical secretary
    at my doctor's office. . strong mental impression, with physical
    attraction, and style. . style suitable for a mountain-man
    engineer like me, you know;;; not Style.

    generalizing::: the mental match complemented by physical
    attraction, supplemented by a style match does it for me.

    if she hits the bull's eye, so to speak, I will lose it, over her.

    it is all subjective, in my humble opinion. . and I am the older
    of two kids (have a wonderful younger sister), but generally
    a private kind of person. . I hope that this helps. -- john
    .
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  • Posted by salta 9 years, 2 months ago
    There is a language problem because we use the same word to mean "real" love we feel for another person (including our parents, kids, siblings, friends), and "falling in love" which is just sexual attraction. They are two very different things. A good relationship is when you feel both.

    Attraction can start in an instant, but almost always fades over time (maybe 7 yrs? to coin a stereotype).
    Real love usually grows over time, as we learn more about someone, and the values we see in them grow.

    Keeping the two concepts separate helps prevent the apparent conflict of "love" for relatives and friends, including friends on the same gender.
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  • Posted by davidmcnab 9 years, 2 months ago
    Romantic love is our subjective experience of the drive for immortality. When the "moon hits your eye", it's because your subconscious has assessed the prospective mate and perceives that offspring created with him/her will have a genetic advantage.

    In studies of limerence, too, it's found that mutual infatuation is relatively rare. It's usually one partner in that DUHHHH state and the other partner willing to be party to it, because they like the person enough to be willing to mate with them, but from much more of a "loyal friends with benefits" perspective.

    For your offspring, your scoring of the best mate means they have higher chance of survival, better access to resources, better access to the best mates when they grow up, and better resources for nurturing offspring produced with their chosen mates. In other words, for you, this confers a level of immortality at a genetic level.

    This is what underlies jealousy behaviour - trying to control one's mate and preventing others from getting access to him/her, even that most extreme criminal behaviour of killing a mate if it tries to escape. It's all a genetic strategy aimed at giving one's own line the best advantage. "If I can't have him, nobody else will!"

    Sadly, the subconscious is not very good at factoring in more recent factors relating to the species. For example, killing a mate rather than letting them escape will most likely extinguish one's own further reproductive opportunities - there aren't a lot of mating options in maximum security prison.

    The annoying thing is that something in our being tends to withhold our best creative energies until or unless we fall into that stupid gah-gah state. Then, we seem to have a muse inspiring us to create the most amazing things. All for the opportunity to pee into the gene pool and transcend the limited span of one's own mortal coil.
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  • Posted by dukem 9 years, 2 months ago
    Seems as if I've covered all the mentioned bases, but then I've had more time and gone through more cycles than many on this list.
    First big one was intellect and spirituality, second was physical, third was just because she was different than everything I was.
    I am now pondering - and haven't experienced - actual friendship, which in turn takes me back to the beginning of the cycle.
    I'm out of time and energy and money, but the fertile brain marches on.
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FORMATTING HELP

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