Should Children of Illegal Aliens Born in the US be Automatic Citizens?

Posted by richrobinson 9 years, 2 months ago to Politics
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"All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside."

This blogger makes a pretty simple and straight forward argument that the 14th Amendment does not apply to illegal immigrants. Trump has been laughed at for making this argument but at least people are talking about it.
SOURCE URL: http://objectivistindividualist.blogspot.com/


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  • Posted by $ AJAshinoff 9 years, 2 months ago
    No. The 14th Amendment was written to ensure that freed slaves received, and were not denied, their full rights as US citizens. It has never had any relevance to anchor babies.
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    • Posted by 9 years, 2 months ago
      The narrative today is to pretend that the issue is settled and it does apply to anchor babies. I hope the discussion continues and that more Constitutional scholars come forward to challenge that idea.
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      • Posted by $ AJAshinoff 9 years, 2 months ago
        All that is needed is to repeal the 14th Amendment, perhaps all of the restoration Amendments (13 and 15 too). None of them apply any longer. Besides its demeaning to have a persons rights determined by a piece of paper - another groups judgment.
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        • Posted by craigerb 9 years, 2 months ago
          AJ, you had it right the first time. There is no "need to repeal the 14th Amendment", only to interpret as you have.
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          • Posted by $ AJAshinoff 9 years, 2 months ago
            The trouble is "as its written" has been twisted into what we have today. Their lack of necessity anymore based on the reason for their existence could easily remove the problem entirely - no interpretation required ever again.
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        • Posted by TheRealBill 9 years, 2 months ago
          That isn't even needed, even at the time of the 14th inclusion it was well known and firmly, and clearly, stated it did not automatically give citizenship to temporary aliens. While the concept of unlawful presence did not exist at the time the concept of non-immigrants' children birthed on American soil was known and talked about.

          What we fail to understand today is that the point of the limits such as for ambassadors or staff, was to not impose citizenship on the birth of children to those who were not actually immigrating. It wasn't about who could or could not qualify but about not forcing U.S. citizenship on the kids of consulates and their staff.

          Now, could you parlay they into something around unlawful presence? I think you could, but the record shows it isn't necessary. What most don't realize is despite the clear intent to avoid granting birthright citizenship to children of foreign diplomats and their staff, which is not in question by anyone, the process for ensuring this doesn't happen is as open as the sky. as a result we currently have these children becoming U.S. citizens.

          What we should do is to put in place the mechanisms to ensure it doesn't happen. For example, birth certificates should require the presence and validation of at least one parent's SSN before they can be issued, and that for new SSN applications of newborn or underage children the SSN of at least one parent must be present and validated before issuance.

          The perceptive amongst us will notice this neatly solves both problems, and clearly follows the laws as written today (and well, frankly for decades).
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          • Posted by $ AJAshinoff 9 years, 2 months ago
            I agree.

            The trouble is "as its written" has been twisted into what we have today. Their lack of necessity anymore based on the reason for their existence could easily remove the problem entirely - no interpretation required ever again.
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  • Posted by Temlakos 9 years, 2 months ago
    No. The key phrase is "subject to the jurisdiction." Even the Court that went wayward in Wong Kim Ark's case recognized that his parents were lawful domiciled residents of San Francisco. They also named two specific classes they would exclude: foreign diplomatic and consular staff and their families, and soldiers of invading armies.
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    • Posted by JuliBMe 9 years, 2 months ago
      I believe you are correct. And, since this is an invasion of sorts, then we would be incredibly stupid to think that these babies, born to people who broke the law to get here, are citizens. Their "jurisdiction" has nothing to do with location but their national loyalties. As such, "anchor babies" have parents with no loyalty to the United States except what is purchased by the welfare extended to them by their slave-masters in an elitist government.
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  • Posted by Herb7734 9 years, 2 months ago
    To me, this is the simple act of rewarding people for committing a crime. The intent of the Founders was never to be thought of in the current manner of "anchor babies," that are being used in many cases, to suck at the teat of American largesse.
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  • Posted by funu50401 9 years, 2 months ago
    "[S]ubject to the jurisdiction thereof" is no joke.
    And is why there is no such thing as birth-right citizenship for children born of illegal aliens, i.e., persons not lawfully in the United States..
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  • Posted by SaltyDog 9 years, 2 months ago
    That's a good, albeit complex question. The short answer is no, but the route to get there is somewhat involved.

    First of all, the solution is NOT to change the existing Constitutional mandate. The answer lies in our immigration policy itself. If the granting of citizenship is rooted in a crime, in this case the crime would be illegally entering the US (or becoming and 'unregistered Democrat if you prefer), it seems to me that citizenship should be revoked. Here's the problem: in many cases, citizenship has been granted (you know...the whole 'anchor baby' thing). What of the family members that have been sponsored to emigrate to America based upon the citizenship of the infant? How do we deal with that?

    This is a whole Pandora's Box that didn't need to be a problem in the first place, and by doing nothing the problem is getting exponentially larger.
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    • Posted by $ WilliamShipley 9 years, 2 months ago
      If someone has been sponsored to immigrate based on a misunderstanding of the constitutional citizenship mandate they have still legally immigrated. They are legal immigrants, and can be "anchor parents" to make the child legal.

      There are lots of things we can do to fix mistakes of the past, we need to fix the current process first.
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  • Posted by johnpe1 9 years, 2 months ago
    if jurisdiction occurs as a result of invasion, sure. . otherwise, no.
    the "11 or 12 million" illegal residents in the u.s. are invaders,
    not immigrants, and the "anchor baby" argument is a bad one. -- j
    .
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  • Posted by $ nickursis 9 years, 2 months ago
    I would say that that logic demands that a mother in jail and gives birth means that her child is also a criminal. I am not aware of that legal precedent occurring, so it should not apply to illegal immigrants as well. Simply by completing the act of illegally entering the country should establish them in a legal "non-entity" waiting disposition, and so, not incurring legal benefits. If that were the policy set in law, it would simplify this whole equation.
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  • Posted by LibertyBelle 9 years, 2 months ago
    "All persons born or naturalized in the United States
    and subject to the jurisdiction thereof," is pretty
    clear and straightforward. The toddler, born in the
    USA, of an illegal immigrant couple, still cannot
    legally toddle on to the next-door neighbor's lawn, pull down his diaper, and pee on that lawn
    without his parents' being liable for it. He is "sub-
    ject to the jurisdiction thereof". As I understand
    the law, such a toddler born to a visiting diplo-
    mat would not thereby get his parents prosecut-
    ed, because of diplomatic immunity; if too much
    rambunctious stuff goes on, the remedy is to
    get the diplomat recalled.
    Does this provide a sort of incentive for
    people to "jump the fence" and get their offspring
    born in the United States to benefit by this tech-
    nicality? Well, yes. Is it unfortunate? Yes. Does
    it justify tearing up the Constitution and throw-
    ing out the 14th Amendment? No, it does not.
    Better guarding of the border; less tenderness
    in allowing the American-born children's illegal
    parents to stay in the U.S; barring immigrants
    (at least those who are too new) from getting
    payments from the welfare state; these are
    proper remedies. (Also, dismantling the wel-
    fare state itself). But the Constitution means
    what it says, and says what it means.
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  • Posted by RonC 9 years, 2 months ago
    "...and the state wherein they reside." Oh how those small clauses are overlooked when convenient.
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    • Posted by not-you 9 years, 2 months ago
      Indeed, Ron. And it would appear that many completely overlook the other 4 Sections of Amendment 14-- in particular Section 5. Many Constitutional scholars tend to agree with the commentary at this link. I encourage you to read it.
      http://www.nationalreview.com/birthri...
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      • Posted by not-you 9 years, 2 months ago
        Seems logical to me that Congress has the authority (via Section 5) to define what, " subject to the jurisdiction thereof" means in both the substantive and procedural domains. And, there have been no Constitutional challenges to the Act of Congress in 1924 granting citizenship to Native Americans--an act which upon superficial reading would appear to be in conflict with Section 2. I suspect this is not going to remain a, "settled" issue.
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        • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 9 years, 2 months ago
          I've read the entire new Constitution and find no reference to your statement. You must be quoting the old one which was replaced by the Patriot Act. A valid history lesson but little to do with reality - unless you are an ostrich.

          Under the old Constitution the rule was anyone born within the country was eligible for citizenship. Under the new one it depends on the time of day on which date with no need for any explanation.
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  • Posted by term2 9 years, 2 months ago
    Personally I think that citizenship in a given country should be earned, not given by birth. Maybe then the citizens of each country would be better citizens, in that they chose their citizenship. The application process would lead to a more homogeneous population in each area. What is citizenship and its meaning if not for that
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  • Posted by craigerb 9 years, 2 months ago
    Children born in the U. S. should have the citizenship of their parents. If they are here illegally, they should have to go to their country of citizenship before applying for immigration.
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  • Posted by upslidedown 9 years, 2 months ago
    Where do rights come from anyways? I always here folks clamoring for their rights. Where do Objectivists think rights come from?
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    • Posted by conscious1978 9 years, 2 months ago
      They are derived from the nature of man.

      http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/ind...
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      • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 2 months ago
        Is citizenship really a right at birth? I am asking this question as a serious attempt to learn.

        As you correctly state, rights are derived from the nature of man. However, a) the right to citizenship varies upon where someone is born, b) appears to depend on the government in that country, and c) can be taken away in the case of felonies ("right" to vote, "right" to keep and bear arms, etc.). I am not saying that taking away these rights are a proper role for government. What I am asking is "Can those truly be considered rights in the Objectivist sense?" Perhaps they should be in an Objectivist universe, but unfortunately we do not live in such a universe ... yet.

        Moreover, term2 wrote that citizenship should be earned. From an Objectivist standpoint, should citizenship be granted to a newborn incapable of a) making its own moral decisions, or b) generating enough self-sustaining actions on its own to sustain its own life?
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        • Posted by conscious1978 9 years, 2 months ago
          I was addressing the nature of "rights" and the beauty of the fact they are not granted by anyone.

          http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/per...

          Citizenship is a permission.
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          • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 2 months ago
            That was what I thought, and was the point of my argument. I was checking my own premises. Thanks for the clarification. Citizenship is a permission.
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            • Posted by johnpe1 9 years, 2 months ago
              then, does it follow that voting "rights" are also permissions?
              and then, what is required to gain that permission? . mere citizenship?
              or should there be more? . as for my view, I believe that voters
              should have taken an oath of loyalty to the u.s.constitution. -- j
              .
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              • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 2 months ago
                Yes, it then does follow that voting "rights" are also permissions. They are not natural rights. Government can grant them or take them away. They do depend on where you are born, etc.
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                • Posted by johnpe1 9 years, 2 months ago
                  oops. . if government can grant the permission to vote, then
                  the government can control voting and perpetuate its corruption
                  and .......
                  this brings about the question of the write-in referendum.
                  where do the voters get a say in voting? . and oops again --
                  democracies fail when the voters give themselves a
                  free ride. . somewhere in here there must be a statesman, a
                  leader, an Ayn Rand. . Representative Democracy with
                  wise leaders. . OOOoooooohhhhh, I wish!!! -- j
                  .
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  • Posted by broskjold22 9 years, 2 months ago
    Perhaps a stricter definition of who is a citizen must be determined. One criterion would be: if one parent is a citizen, then the child is a citizen, for example. Or if the mother is a citizen, then the child is a citizen. This would prevent men from selling their "services" to foreigners looking to gain citizenship for their children for whatever reason.
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    • Posted by TheRealBill 9 years, 2 months ago
      Those conditions are already defined. Further, that hypothetical "service" is currently legal and covered:
      """
      Child born out of wedlock to a U.S. Citizen father: A child born outside of the United States to an U.S. Citizen father where there is no marriage to the non-American mother is entitled to U.S. Citizenship providing the American citizen father had been physically present in the United States for the period of time as specified in previous paragraphs for children born in wedlock to one U.S. Citizen and one non-U.S. Citizen parent, either before or after November 14, 1986; and

      - the alien mother completes an "Affidavit to establish paternity of child" at this office before a consular officer;
      - and the father signs a sworn statement agreeing to provide financial support for the child until s/he reaches the age of 18 years;
      - and the father provides a written statement acknowledging paternity.
      """ -- Taken from the Ireland U.S. Embassy site.

      BTW, the "period of time" requirement it references is:
      "A child born outside of the United States to one U.S. citizen parent and one non-U.S. citizen parent may be entitled to citizenship providing the U.S. citizen parent had been physically present in the United States or one of its outlying possessions for five years, at least two years of which were after s/he reached the age of fourteen. This period of physical presence must have taken place prior to the birth of the child."

      So right now, legally and unequivocally,you could indeed sell yourself in this fashion. You (or your client) would have to either:
      arrange for the temporary stay of the would-be mother in the U.S. for insemination
      or
      arrange for artificial insemination of the mother in her own country.

      (... and agree to be on the hook for child support.)

      And for soliders, they don't even have to do that as time spent abroad in the service of the federal government (or even the U.N.) counts as physical presence in the U.S.
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  • Posted by RevJay4 9 years, 2 months ago
    To answer the question asked, NO, definitely not. The 14th amendment does not apply to children born of ILLEGAL aliens born in the US. This amendment could be done away with as there are no longer any slaves alive from that period of time.
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