Groping Toward Bitcoin Consciousness

Posted by WDonway 10 years, 9 months ago to Technology
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If you aren't interested in Bitcoins, what in hell ARE you interested in?
SOURCE URL: http://www.financialsense.com/contributors/walter-donway/groping-toward-bitcoin-consciousness


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  • Posted by Lucky 10 years, 9 months ago
    WDonway- Good thinking.
    Seems to me that Bitcoin shares the strengths and weaknesses of other currencies.
    The value of gold is not constant, we can imagine technology that will substantially reduce the cost of extraction. Few want a lump of gold as dbh says, so why not something no wants at all - except for value to trade later for something we do want. In that sense it is the same as paper money or entries in the files of a bank. Similar to government 'fiat' money, Bitcoin relies on the founder not flooding the market or the algorithms not getting cracked (corresponding to quantitative easing and forgery). A unique advantage, of that class of currency, is its independence of government, but, governments will try to control or at least monitor who owns and trades it. That outcome is still open. The identity of the founder being secret makes it romantic, maybe it really is some Japanese computer and economics whizz. Maybe it is some backroom alliance of the US Reserve Bank and NSA ,.. ..
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  • Posted by 10 years, 9 months ago
    I think it is a mistake to argue that things that are luxuries, used primarily to give aesthetic pleasure, such as gold, have no "real" value. That that we enjoy for their own sake do have value--in a context. On a deserted island, luxuries may be irrelevant; even more so on a lifeboat. But that is not the test of their value. Of value to whom and for what?
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    • Posted by dbhalling 10 years, 9 months ago
      Agreed about luxuries, but as a store of value or for exchange gold is useless on a deserted island and probably has little (currency) value if two of three of you are stuck on a deserted island. The point being that gold as a currency is a generalized IOU.
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  • Posted by dbhalling 10 years, 9 months ago
    Hi Walter,

    I think bitcoin is one of the most interesting experiments in economics is years. At its heart money is a generalized IOU (as a opposed to an IOU that is only enforceable against a specific person). Even if I receive physical gold it likely has little value to me, unless I am a jeweler except that it represents that I gave up something of value - say a book. I don't want gold, I want something else say food or rent or the ability to purchase them in the future. Even gold is acting a a general IOU (Think bearer bond) as opposed to an IOU that is specific to one person. Gold is and always has been an awkward medium to lug around and divide, which is why the exchange bank was created. An exchange bank does back its negotiable instruments (checks, bank notes) with gold or silver, but if it works well the bank is mainly just acting as a ledger - or a computer entry in today's world. The gold and silver never actually go any where. Bitcoin has that as a significant advantage over gold and silver. It is easy to transfer and divide. I agree with the article that it is not widely accepted, but that is changing.

    The article suggests that bitcoins biggest problem is that the government may attack it. Actually, I think that is its greatest strength. The harder governments attack bitcoin the higher I see the demand for it. The thing that would kill bitcoin is strong money policies and free market policies, but I don't see those happening soon.


    The article makes one mistake "At the root, the base of Bitcoins is the contractual limitation of the supply." Actually supply of bitcoins is not contractually limited, it is a mathematical property of bitcoins.
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    • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 9 months ago
      Unless, and perhaps until, somebody cracks the algorithm and fills their own account with millions of them.
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      • Posted by 10 years, 9 months ago
        Thanks, Dale! You see, everyone knows more about this than I do! It seems to be that gold, by its nature, the nature of reality, is limited in supply, whereas bitcoins are not. Is that right? But bitcoin supply is limited by the nature of its mathematical properties? I can't quite agree that gold is only an IOU--an intrinsically valueless promise to pay. There never has been a point in history when people didn't want it. If you have a girlfriend, you need gold... Bitcoins seem to have no intrinsic value... If you bury gold, now, I imagine that in 100 years whoever digs it up will be able to spend it. No such guarantee with bigcoins, is there? Just wondering, really. Being attacked by government may help bitcoins, I'm not sure what would happen if government criminalized them. Sure didn't hurt cocaine...
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        • Posted by dbhalling 10 years, 9 months ago
          If I am on a deserted island with a million dollars of gold, it has no value. Most people only hold it as a generalized IOU, which is what bank notes are.

          I do not disagree that there are potential problems with bitcoin. The most severe being that they decline in acceptance, which certainly has happened to other currencies. But I think it is nonsense, to suggest that bitcoin is all smoke and mirrors. It has almost all the attributes of money and certainly better attributes than Venezuelan Bolivar and many other government issued currencies.
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        • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 9 months ago
          The only things that are "intrinsically valuable" are air and water. You cannot live without either, and thus you will give anything to obtain them if they are deprived of you. Luckily for us, both are abundant and ubiquitous.
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      • Posted by dbhalling 10 years, 9 months ago
        I have looked at encryption issues like this and I cannot say for sure, but I don't think that is likely. (Never say never)
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        • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 9 months ago
          I'm guessing that the NSA can crack it and manipulate the quantity at any time they choose, should this gain any traction and prove a threat.
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          • Posted by dbhalling 10 years, 9 months ago
            I think you are severely overestimating the power of the NSA. It is not just a matter of creating a bitcoin, it is also the system that is used to track where the coin is held. The NSA has to fool that system, but it is a p2p so there is no centralized location to change this data.
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            • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 9 months ago
              I'm not familiar with the technical aspects of how bitcoins are created/managed. However, if it is done electronically and uses algorithms, I have no doubt that the NSA is capable of compromising them. We're talking about folks that are the brightest and have the best computers in the world.
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  • Posted by 10 years, 9 months ago
    Well...I dunno. Many, many things, if you are on deserted island, have no value to you because you lack the tools/technology to use it. Many things that had no value to our prehistoric ancestors are almost universally valued, today. If on the island you have no use for gasoline, DVDs, copper ingots, a printing press, it is because you have no technology/tools to to use them. That does not mean that they "have no value" in a normal context. If you do have the tools and technology, you can use the gold for lots of things. I don't think you successfully can characterize gold as useful only as a medium of exchange. It IS a luxury, which gives it high unit value, but it has value. Even if it had no "practical" use (but it does), its use in creating objects of luxury of all sorts gives it value. Indeed, such things were created and valued long before our forbears had much of anything else... Or so it seems to me. Bitcoins are different; they are not real money. Only their acceptance as a medium of exchange gives them a use, a value. And that is not true of gold.
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    • Posted by dbhalling 10 years, 9 months ago
      See my point about luxuries above. BTW gasoline almost certainly has value on a deserted island.

      Anyway, my point is most currency is just a way of keeping an account of how much value you traded (produced) to someone. You now want to get an equal value from someone else. From the advent of the exchange bank, currency has been more about ledger entries than trading items. Bitcoin fulfills that purpose very well, probably much better than government legal tender computer entries.

      If by "real" money you mean a hard commodity money it is true. But it is as real an any government backed money. And it is not that different that money (paper) backed by gold or silver that is in an exchange bank.
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