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Civility Pays!

Posted by khalling 9 years, 3 months ago to Philosophy
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This is how it feels sometimes when I am in a polite debate about rights. One time, I was talking to supposed "like" minds while they debated about whether ex-convicts could qualify for a National ID card, completely missing the point that requirement of a National ID was an infringement of my rights (I say my rights, because if people are too far gone that they cannot see the loss of rights in having to show "papers" to cross a state border, did they deserve the right to be free from it?) It's one thing to tell someone (or advocate) to do something (buy insurance) at the point of a gun (govt enforcement, robbery). Is it not the same when the govt does NOT enforce property rights (trespass, infringement, theft) and where is the cut-off (what's proper to enforce, what is force against the individual)? I am just interested in your off the cuff thoughts about it.
SOURCE URL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D23jmVJ9yh4


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  • Posted by Zenphamy 9 years, 3 months ago
    No matter the level of civility or expressed reasons for what they're doing. I simply don't want anybody other than I choose to know who I am, where I've been, or where I'm going. My first SS card had written diagonally across the face in red ink--Not To Be Used For ID. I liked that.

    It all ranks right up there with: "If you haven't done anything wrong, why do you care what they know. Are you trying to hide something?"

    What's proper to enforce? Criminal and Civil Tort!! I'm thinking about a post on 'What is Force."
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    • Posted by 9 years, 3 months ago
      more importantly, why exactly do we have to be civil to be persuasive? On the PC stuff I would say the PCers are anything but civil with people. and those trying to remove our liberties or steal our property? they are sweet as coconut oil or stealthy trying to say they want the opposite of what they are supporting. I do not have to be civil to that!
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    • Posted by $ winterwind 9 years, 3 months ago
      once upon a time, it was illegal to use the SS number for identification. imagine that!
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      • Posted by $ Abaco 9 years, 3 months ago
        My pilots license number is my social security number, from 1987. I look at it and shake my head thinking about how times have already changed - how using the number in that manner looks crazy now.
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        • Posted by VetteGuy 9 years, 3 months ago
          Yeah, I remember when the SS number was everywhere. It was my employee number, my ID badge number at the plant I worked at, it was on my driver's license, and on every paycheck - and not just the last 4 digits. If I wanted, I could have easily known the SS number of everyone in my part of the company. It kinda makes me wonder if anyone was taking notes, and what happened to all those old records.
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    • Posted by blackswan 9 years, 3 months ago
      If you identify as a criminal, but you're innocent, and you can prove it by showing an ID, which would you prefer, a lot of drama being arrested, and later (possibly much later) proving your innocence, or showing an ID and being on your way? Personally, I don't have time to waste on anything other than what I'm interested in doing, and "proving" that I'm "free" isn't one of them.
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      • Posted by 9 years, 3 months ago
        ah, this is what we call the utilitarian argument. Lose your freedoms for pragmatic reasons. As Zen pointed out-your SS number was never to be an ID (that's recent). NOt that long ago-you did not need a passport. NOw in 2016 you have to have a star on your license. It's partly how they got even with the us because we screamed bloody murder about the new passport rules (which the agency walked back)-that's right-they quietly and civilly asked if you wanted a passport renewed or new one-what were your bank accounts, addresses for last 15 years, etc. People complained so much they revoked it. Complain LOUDLY and get MAD
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  • Posted by $ blarman 9 years, 3 months ago
    What frequently gets overlooked in any kind of conversation is that no one has the right not to be offended. Civility is the ability for both parties to refrain from using ad hominem but also to recognize that regardless of whether or not one agrees with the other person, everyone has a right to form their own opinion and draw their own conclusions.
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  • Posted by johnpe1 9 years, 3 months ago
    K, I have a good friend -- my favorite millionaire, the ham mentor,
    who owns a piece of property which he's trying to sell. . it is worth
    a bunch -- more than a million. . and he had a buyer, he thought......
    that buyer spent more than a year "bargaining" the price down,
    and then stated that he couldn't get the bank to finance the full
    price, just a price 200K less. . my friend declined the reduced price.
    the guy "walked away" from the deal.

    then, 2 weeks later, my friend got a codes infringement notice
    from the county. . "International Code Xxxx" violation. . he is required
    to "clean up" the property before any sale might occur.

    the county was in charge of security, for this piece of land,
    when about 40K worth of auto engines and ham radio gear
    was stolen, before he decided to sell.

    the moral of the story? . property rights are only negative, there,
    when the prospective buyer bitches to the codes office in revenge. -- j

    p.s. we're already required to show papers, to vote or buy a car,
    or to get a passport. . . and it's only getting worse!
    .
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    • Posted by 9 years, 3 months ago
      I know. John, I'd like to know more of the story for book research PM or Fb me
      K
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      • Posted by johnpe1 9 years, 3 months ago
        and today, the O2 company which helps me with the emphysema
        called to say that they Had To Come By and swap out the home
        concentrator plus the little-bottle-filler (on top) because medicare
        would stop paying unless we registered new serial numbers
        TODAY. . so, that's what we did. . damned bureaucrats!!! -- j

        p.s. will research and send data to you.
        .
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        • Posted by Technocracy 9 years, 3 months ago
          That is a racket in a lot of ways anyway.

          The concentrators do not cost all that much to start with. The O2 company charges medicare a rental fee every month that pays for the equipment in well under 2 years. Yet the same equipment remains in service with you until its 02 output drops below a certain percentage. If the government agencies had enough brains to pour piss out of a boot without instructions on the heel, they would just buy the equipment outright and give it to you. Then contract someone to test output once a year, and service as required.

          The real reason they wanted to register a new serial number? Likely to show medicare "new equipment" on your account regardless of its age. If they don't do that eventually even a government 'crat will figure something is wrong.
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          • Posted by 9 years, 3 months ago
            lots of medical supply companies are. Why is that? the crony relationship with Medicare?
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            • Posted by Technocracy 9 years, 3 months ago
              Honestly, I don't know where the problems originate....

              Medicare certainly pushes corruption at the vendors with their nonsensical rules and regulations.

              Congress keeps lowering reimbursement rates for medicare causing prices charged to medicare to have no bearing on reality. same problem occurs in the non-medicare sector as well.Simple check? Ask your medical provider their cash price for not using insurance. You will be shocked.

              The system is so corrupted that vendors game it to make enough money to cover costs and turn a profit.

              Patients game it, to get the treatments they need.

              Insurance companies game it to maximize their profits and reduce their expenses.

              Medical facilities and doctors game it to stay in business and turn a profit.

              In a system so riddled with with corruption, is it any wonder prices continue to rocket up while services received continue to go down?
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              • Posted by johnpe1 9 years, 3 months ago
                and a close friend had an "open heart" operation in Sept. of 2014;;;
                he is still going in weekly for warfarin tests. . I think that he's just
                a pawn in the Dr's office's search for medicare bucks. -- j
                .
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                • Posted by Technocracy 9 years, 3 months ago
                  They could give him the testing supplies to do at home and call in the readings (did that for my mother-in-law). However if they did that, they lose all the office visit charges. So unless there is a compelling reason in their eyes, they make you come in rather than test at home.
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                  • Posted by johnpe1 9 years, 3 months ago
                    they call this a "therapeutic level of warfarin" which they contend is
                    needed for his continued recovery. . I'm on xarelto because of
                    blood clots in the past. . why isn't he? . it seems to be the chase
                    for medicare bucks which keeps him on warfarin, requiring tests........ -- j
                    .
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          • Posted by $ Terrylutz3682 9 years, 3 months ago
            I am on O2 24/7. It is a crime to see how Medicare is ripped off. My provider charges Medicare $186 a month for a concentrator that cost $700 new. Because of this I buy most of my equipment direct and do not turn it in to Medicare.
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  • Posted by ObjectiveAnalyst 9 years, 3 months ago
    Hello khalling,
    The IRS robs me of my money... sometimes the agents on the phone are nice... sometimes not so much. We already have a national ID. It is a social security card... Unfortunately that boat has already sailed. It is an infringement in several ways. The notion that anyone within the border of the U.S, should be accosted and asked "your papers please?" is offensive, unless it is a police officer that has caught you in the act of committing a crime. Then a state issued ID. seems like the only solution. If the Police are looking for someone else and they know the name and you fit the general description, but have Id that they accept and allow you to go on your way is that not acceptable? I don't mind having to present a drivers license to purchase adult beverages or get my money from a bank. Of course these final examples are voluntary. I could brew my own or keep my money under my mattress. What say you?
    With Civility, :)
    O.A.
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  • Posted by conscious1978 9 years, 3 months ago
    I have to show this to my liberal-minded friends...umm, and my conservative-minded friends...ok...to my friends.

    This is a metaphor for what's wrong with "the cost to live in a free society." Thanks, KH.

    $
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  • Posted by Ibecame 9 years, 3 months ago
    Addiction: Continuing to repeat the same action when you know it produces a negative result.

    Close your eyes and try to see all of the governments in history. They all so far have repeated the same steps to failure, and so have the people in those governments. The desire to control others is a insanity. The crazy thing is that all of the leaders in our government have access thousands of years of history and the fact that all governments so far have ended in failure. The part that should scare them is that the majority of these leaders met the same fate from Cesar to the Russian Tsar's to Hitler and many more up to today.
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    • Posted by $ winterwind 9 years, 3 months ago
      I'm pretty sure I don't agree with your definition of addiction - the negative result only happens in the later part of the addiction.
      However, I'm not sure it matters that I agree to clearly see the truth of your second part. and I have some thoughts.
      They Believe: it can't happen to me, or to this country, or they don't know enough history to see the parallels between 2 differing systems, AND the biggie, they don't care, because they'll get theirs, and they'll make sure that, between the pension and the SS protection, they will - could not be -harmed, ever.
      This leads to the next question. Why do they believe all these things?
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      • Posted by Ibecame 9 years, 3 months ago
        I will tackle the last question first; They believe they are omnipotent and thus entitled. The other factor is that they live in the moment. The decide History doesn't matter, after all, those before them were stupid, that is why they failed. Companies and Governments fail for the same basic reason. They become overly heavy with more and more over emphasized ego.

        As far as the definition of "Addiction" that I used, I borrowed it from; Benjamin Franklin. It refers not to chemical dependence, but the decisions we all make repetadly at times that are not truly in our best interest.
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    • Posted by livefree-NH 9 years, 3 months ago
      I've concluded that for some people, "government" is in the same place as religion. Using the definition of faith in Hebrews (11:1), it is "being sure of what we hope for, being convinced of what we do not see."

      "We do not see" government making things better, but it is the promise that politicians make, year after year after year.
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  • Posted by $ jdg 9 years, 3 months ago
    The changes that really need to be made to fix our system are so huge and so unlikely, one simply has to push for gradualist changes as well. This may lead the unfamiliar to read contradictions into our position when really, we know perfectly well what's necessary, there are just so many bad guys that one is tempted to despair.

    I'm surprised more victims don't just "go postal."
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  • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 9 years, 3 months ago
    i vote no without purposes of evasion.

    Discussion

    One of the oft used tricks to get around common sense and facts is a side step question that really has nothing to do with anything. When did you quit beating your wife and kids? As for national ID I tested the concept some years a go when moving from a west coast to an east coast permanent address. At the bank I handed them my list of requirements and a social security number. Five minutes later the accounts were opened. What we think of as names are street names. Your national name is in nine digits xxx-xx-xxxx. They may leave off your street name Citizen X but they won't forget your fingerprint

    At the end I put my usual answer. I have yet to find any of the proponents of what you just said or similar ideas evidence any glimmer of understanding.

    I did respond once about tattooing the national name on every new born infant and in order to get voters registration cards, drivers license, fishing licenses and passports.

    Most common answer..."Hey that sounds like a good idea!!!"

    My usual retort when I'm in a polite mood?

    Seig me no heils comrade I don't serve the party

    Now six points


    Laugh of the Day

    Biden's friends are worried about his legacy if he runs for President.
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  • Posted by term2 9 years, 3 months ago
    Frankly I am tired of other people trying to unload their problems on me. It happens so much these days, its disgusting. If they are going to rob me, they should just display their weapons and I will decide whether to acquiesce to their demands or stand firm and resist.
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