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The Conflict Within - The Left's Version of Creationism

Posted by Zenphamy 9 years, 4 months ago to Philosophy
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I've mentioned in other comments, a recent book I've been reading and studying by a favorite Astro-physicist, Hilton Ratcliffe, titled "Stephen Hawking Smoked My Socks." The primary emphasis of this book, that follows much of Ratcliffe's previous work has to do with the effect of belief systems on scientific inquiry and mathematical formulation of and nonsensical corrections/additions to theories to incorporate such beliefs into current scientific research and even experimental findings. In these writings, Ratcliffe is really talking about socially derived belief's-faith's impact on science today, as well as the fact that all humans grow up with sets of belief systems that those in science, in particular though not exclusively, must first recognize such belief systems' impacts and their influences on their and their predecessors' work, but then take the extremely difficult path of ensuring that such does not interfere with their actual and factual experimental and measured findings and work.

Now, I've recently encountered another source in the referenced blog (Gene Expression), that goes even further than Ratcliffe in describing this phenomena of human existence in scientific work by delving into the scientific squabble that's been going on since the 70's with those, sometimes termed neo-darwinists', that searched for and believe they've found support in their studies and work to support what they've termed sociobiology. A term developed to explain many studied characteristics of today's individual humans actions and responses whose predilections in society are derived from evolutionary genetic traits at neural and molecular levels combined with environmentally influenced expressions. The referenced article, though not easily read, describes those opposing sociobiology as driven by their own early Marxist and Stalinist indoctrination that wish to believe that humans are so malleable as to be controlled through progressive/socialist government and institutional policies and imposed moralities.

The article goes on to compare the opposing leftist, progressive influence to the rightist, conservative arguments on creationism:
"Rose, like his fellow travellers Gould and Lewontin, doesn't want his worldview, which has been extensively shaped by Marxist philosophy, to come crumbling down. The solutions proffered are state centered, gene-phobic, and premised on the extreme malleability of human nature. Further, like Diamond, he knows what sells and what his fans want to read and hear. He panders to the ideology, whether he truly believes in the Ghost in the Machine or not, and despite the warnings offered by Ehrenreich, McIntosh and Konner, the faithful of the Left lap up the ideologically reassuring pablum and turn a blind eye to the reality unfolding before them. The core of this faith is that human nature is malleable beyond limits that now exist, and like I've written before, along with my co-bloggers, it is that faith in the face of reason that binds one faction of the Left to their faith-based counterparts on the Right and like on the Right, the Left has its charlatans and hypocrites delivering these sermons." (emphasis added)

For Objectivist, these ideas and concepts will make a lot of sense. For those dedicated to the validity of their beliefs-faith, as the author says, in the face of reason, they will find much to argue with (if they even bother to read and follow some of the referenced material before commenting).


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I've been disappointed lately in the level of much posting and commentary on the site of recent days, and much of my posting lately is an attempt to restore to the site, a quality of Objective thought, posting, and commentary; as well as further the value of reason over faith/belief.
SOURCE URL: http://www.gnxp.com/MT2/archives/003696.html


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  • Posted by Herb7734 9 years, 4 months ago
    "...an attempt to restore to the site, a quality of Objective thought.."
    Insidious, isn't it, how faith creeps in like an ameba swallowing up all reason in its path? It seems as if certain people just have to attribute the, as yet, unexplained, to some ancient thought process formulated by scientific primitives.

    Faith based thinking can be comforting like snuggling up in a down filled comforter. But the only way to accomplish anything is to get out from under the covers and start using your brain and body.
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    • Posted by $ jlc 9 years, 4 months ago
      Beautiful metaphor. It uses a positive symbol for 'faith' (who has not snuggled down into a warm comforter on a cold day?) but stresses the need to put that symbol aside (and who has not needed to get up anyway, in spite of the warm bed, when it was time to arise?).

      Hats off for poetic phrasing.

      Jan
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    • Posted by $ winterwind 9 years, 4 months ago
      Herb, your original metaphor It is bit more interesting for those who, like me, are allergic to down. For me, it goes "...snuggling up in a down filled comforter, drifting towards sleep, and suddenly feeling your eyes start to swell shut, your nose turning into a waterfall, and sometimes your throat beginning to swell". The only way to even LIVE is to throw the comforter as far away from you as you can, go and wash your face, and find another option to keep warm or get up.
      It takes your beautifully-put metaphor a step farther - down [or faith-based thinking] will at best make you wildly uncomfortable, and at worst, will kill you.
      edited to ensure it was clear to just what comment I was replying.
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      • Posted by Herb7734 9 years, 4 months ago
        As it happens, I am also allergic to down filled anything. I never would let that get in the way of a good metaphor..
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        • Posted by $ winterwind 9 years, 4 months ago
          It was not my intention to get in the way of the metaphor; it was my intention to strengthen it: sometimes things which feel good are dangerous.
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          • Posted by Herb7734 9 years, 4 months ago
            OK -- another mis-reading. I didn't mean that you were getting in the way of a good metaphor, I meant that I would prefer a good metaphor over it's consequences. I think that's what I meant. Hell, now I'm not sure what I meant. See what happens when you get old?
            .
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          • Posted by plusaf 9 years, 4 months ago
            About 40-some years ago, at a bed-and-breakfast in western Austria, just over the Swiss border, my wife and I shared a bed with a down comforter which must have been more than a foot thick.
            She was comfortable; I 'sleep warm' and often still do, so after a while, one foot stuck out, then a leg, then an arm, and eventually almost none of the comforter was atop me... in the unheated room.
            Some "standard solutions" aren't.
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    • Posted by 9 years, 4 months ago
      Not just the 'as yet, unexplained', but also the current explained based on current knowledge and testability. As an example M and String Theory have produced absolutely nothing that has any possibility of testing after decades of theorizing and elegant mathematics invention.
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      • Posted by Herb7734 9 years, 4 months ago
        Reminds me of the architect who designed a beautiful single span bridge over a canyon near San Diego. The engineers told him that it appeared to be unstable because of the 35mph gusts of wind that happen in that area. The designer had to agree, although he said, "But it sure is beautiful." So are many elegant and beautiful theories that mathematics can solve in every way except in reality.
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        • Posted by 9 years, 4 months ago
          Good example, or the Tacoma Narrows bridge in WA. Still shown to every young engineering undergraduate, I hope.
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          • Posted by Herb7734 9 years, 4 months ago
            I remember seeing that as a kid. Somewhere in the back of my twisted mind I thought that would make the basis for a thrill ride.
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            • Posted by johnpe1 9 years, 4 months ago
              twisted? . creative!!! -- j
              .
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              • Posted by Herb7734 9 years, 4 months ago
                In my dotage, I often describe myself as a twisted crank. It can let whomever I'm dealing with, know who they're dealing with. In signing business correspondence, I put the letters W. F. A. after my name. I have to date, never been questioned about it. If I ever am, I will let them know that it stands for World's Foremost Authority. What's life about if you can't have a little fun?
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                • Posted by johnpe1 9 years, 4 months ago
                  reminds me of an acronym which I put on the flightline radio monitor
                  beside my desk at Blythefille AFB in '71 -- WFO. . at the top end of
                  the volume scale!!! -- j
                  .
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                  • Posted by Herb7734 9 years, 4 months ago
                    I have almost always been my own boss, but if I ever applied for a job, I might be tempted to use the following: I graduated from Sam Huston Institute of Technology, good old S.H.I.T. From there I worked with the Fresh Air Research Team. After being inducted in the army I was attached to a British Thermal Unit (a BTU). I decided to stay overseas in Japan and get an advanced degree at the famous Japanese university, Wassamatta U.
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          • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 4 months ago
            The Tacoma Narrows Bridge is shown in my class.
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            • Posted by 9 years, 4 months ago
              It needs to be. My first encounter was four years after grad. and a month after picking up my MS. A combination of a super-fast electro-hydraulic servo valve, with a digital position sensor, and an 11/2" x 25' steel cable, on a free fall countering (WWII aircraft carrier elevator) hydraulic lifting cylinder, and I/O'd through a prototype micro-processor with selectable timing, position, velocity, and acceleration control. All to save several 35 yr old vertical annealing/heat treat furnaces for a/c aluminum. Almost brought the building down. Took me about 15 sec to realize and after 4 hrs getting it corrected, went home still red-faced and a few days away from restoring my self confidence. When you first see it in a several ton device, it's humbling.
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              • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 4 months ago
                I have learned that one of the easier ways to get students to appreciate resonance is to watch its effects on scanning tunneling microscopy and atomic force microscopy images. For STM and AFM images, the best images are at the highest possible P and I (proportional and integral) control gain settings without getting into resonance. It is a dangerous game, as the sample and the AFM cantilever are likely to break if you push the control too far.

                Overcontrolling is what causes resonance. This is a lesson statists would do well to learn, too. ;)
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                • Posted by 9 years, 4 months ago
                  If you say so. I've never personally worked with either.
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                  • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 4 months ago
                    Most people have never worked with an STM or an AFM, and never will. I have a John Galt in training that is working toward making extremely inexpensive atomic force microscopes (AFMs). If, and hopefully when, he succeeds, twenty years from now kids will be looking at structure with 1 nm resolution in high school physics classes. STM images are the best scientific validation of deBroglie's interpretation of quantum mechanics that I have seen.
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                    • Posted by conscious1978 9 years, 4 months ago
                      Jim, fortunately I haven't had the need for that level of resolution in my paleontological avocation; but I do have an appreciation for technology that improves our ability to identify the real things around us. :)

                      You've mentioned this "John Galt in training" several times before. Is the moniker a function of his philosophy? Brilliance, alone, wouldn't be the defining quality of that character.
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                      • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 4 months ago
                        While he is brilliant at most things that you expect an engineer might be brilliant at, both hands-on and computational, he is a budding entrepeneur as well. Philosophically, he wants to avoid the State Science Institute pathway, which is the path that almost all research students take. The only people he is willing to work with are those who can exchange value for value, which is something we commonly discuss.

                        With regard to the philosophical training, I am not leading him through AR's philosophy step-by-step, if that is what you are asking. When I first posted Galt's oath on the outside door of my lab, the next day he saw it, said the oath, and then said he agreed with it to me. At that time, I recommended that he read Atlas Shrugged. I have discussed his entrepeneurial goals and given him my advice regarding intellectual property.

                        No, I have not gone into metaphysics and epistemology with him. That is not my area of expertise. If and when he asks, I will do so. I have discussed enough with him to know that philosophically he would fit in around here, but I have not gone into the kind of philosophical detail that perhaps I should have. He certainly knows where I stand, and he generally agrees.
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                • Posted by johnpe1 9 years, 4 months ago
                  Dr. Jim, we built a new engineering building on the tennessee campus,
                  and put the central air conditioning machinery on the roof. . turned on,
                  the air conditioning compressors set up a vibration which shook
                  the entire building, threatening to tear it apart. . the compressors
                  had to be changed out, for scroll compressors if memory serves,
                  to remedy the problem. . HP modal analysis can preclude this. -- j
                  .
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                  • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 4 months ago
                    Embarrassingly, my university had the same problem with its biology building. It's not like the students don't learn modal analysis. I have seen it taught myself. Why the building designers didn't get that right is something is beyond me.
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                • Posted by plusaf 9 years, 4 months ago
                  Overcontrolling? Not 'too many poles in the right-half plane"?
                  Resonance is a mechanical function or electronic function. Controlling it means adjusting components to prevent positive feedback or uncontrolled growth of the oscillations.
                  Undercontrolling, much as 'overcontrolling' can have the same results.

                  Ah, forget it... you're right... of course.
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                  • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 4 months ago
                    With an atomic force microscope, within a minute or so, you can see the effects of changing the P and I gains. In that case, the input to the resonance is electronic, but since one is using piezoelectric materials, it is really electromechanical.
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            • Posted by plusaf 9 years, 4 months ago
              J, I watched that film around 1963 as a freshman at Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute. Why were we shown that movie?

              One reason was that the bridge was designed by an RPI grad.

              And from its design, a LOT of 'new knowledge' about resonance and torsional stiffness sprang up from that immense failure.

              Please keep in mind that most of civilization is an uncontrolled experiment, and one of the only reasons there are still humans walking the face of the earth is that humans are damned good at "figuring out what went wrong" AND learning from it and Making Corrections damned quickly.

              And in my book, that's applicable to EVERY Catastrophic Prediction people are worried about today! Everything is a Definite End-Of-World Scenario and will extrapolate to infinity.

              Except when it doesn't.
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      • Posted by plusaf 9 years, 4 months ago
        Well, it took some decades for some of Einstein's 'theories' to be proven experimentally, too... some times the technology of measurement takes a while to catch up with the insights of math.
        :)
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        • Posted by 9 years, 4 months ago
          Personally, I think the math to Einstein was just a tool of communication used to explain his 'insight'. But Einstein was able to make predictions that were testable only awaiting an eclipse suitable for the photography necessary to confirm the bending of light. So far M and string follow outside that and I don't think they'll ever make it in the door. They differ from Einstein in that they're both derived from the math, not the insight.
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  • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 4 months ago
    A suprisingly large amount of what gets published in scientific journals is not reproducible for a number of reasons.

    1. A result counter to the funding agency's or funding company's biases would lower the scientist's chances of getting future funding.
    2. Scientists have preconceived notions going in, called hypotheses. One sign of a scientist's worth is the willingness to admit that the results were inconsistent with his/her hypotheses.
    3. Some of these preconceived notions come from faith-based biases.
    4. As stated in what you cited, some scientists don't want their worldviews crushed by reality.
    5. The pressure on those funded to publish is high. This likely causes some ethical compromises.
    6. Research students want to finish, particularly if they get job offers. Details that the students knew, but their supervisors did not, then sometimes get left out of the resulting publication. Moreover, many researchers omit certain details so that their competition can't immediately catch up.
    I am sure there are more reasons.
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    • Posted by 9 years, 4 months ago
      j; You're very correct in you're listing. But I do see one glimmer in what I'll term the hard sciences, there seems to be less. It's the softer sciences working from theoretical work, models, mathematical models like M and String theory, and socio/psychological theories where the worst abuses seem to prevail.

      So much seems to suffer like the example in the referenced article. The ethics seems to have slipped their moorings.
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      • Posted by khalling 9 years, 4 months ago
        Isn 't that why we call it "soft"? People should be more skeptical of models and theories. I mean, it 's not like we can all go out and test their work, but I am often more skeptical of scientific findings in areas where the "science " is wrapped up in the political or the conclusions lead to speculation that man needs to be controlled in some way
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        • Posted by 9 years, 4 months ago
          There is really no such thing as consensus in science. There are only things known to date plus theories that aren't yet tested or demonstrated in reality and procedures or 'understandings' that seem to work, yet don't fully explain facts yet, i.e. gravity.
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      • Posted by dbhalling 9 years, 4 months ago
        Zen, I have been working on a plausible argument that "social sciences" or soft sciences were born from the Scottish Enlightenment and the hard sciences were born the Enlightenment. The Scottish Enlightenment is actually an anti-enlightenment movement, most clearly seen in David Hume's work, which denied causality and brought up the famous "is-ought" problem in ethics. Social sciences can't be sciences, because their very foundations deny causality.

        BTW David Hume and Adam Smith were great friends. The philosophical underpinnings of Freud and psychology are from Franz Brentano who I believe should be characterized intellectually as part of the Scottish enlightenment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_B...
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        • Posted by 9 years, 4 months ago
          I really haven't done much study of Hume or the Scottish Enlightenment other than a little bit of Smith.

          I'd like to see your argument when you get far enough along with it. I agree with your thinking, particularly the differences in 'soft' vs 'hard' sciences. My thinking on the subject is that somewhere, Marx or his influences are going to fit somewhere in the mix. I just haven't had that much time to look for the influences on Marx yet.
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  • Posted by $ Thoritsu 9 years, 4 months ago
    I very much accept this hypothesis, and there is evidence it goes much further than religion and leftist beliefs. People do this in all walks of life. Just consumer opinion is an excellent example. Consumer opinion of American cars lagged quality measures by 5-6 years. Brand loyalty, and a variety of other "beliefs" are queered by a mental process most of us employ to various degrees.

    One of my buddies pointed me to a recent book where this concept of drawing a conclusion and then collecting supporting facts is tested and demonstrated. I forget the book name, but intend to go read it.

    Scientific American Mind has done a number of articles on Belief in God and various philanthropic tenancies. They would support your position here, although I do not think anyone there specifically related the two thought processes.
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    • Posted by 9 years, 4 months ago
      Absolutely, it's in no way just confined to religion and leftist. We all develop beliefs, it's part of the genetic makeup of the ways our minds work. The trick, I think that a lot of Rand's work was to get people to recognize that those beliefs are there and to provide a foundation from which we can logically and morally test those beliefs against our lives in reality.

      I like Scientific American Mind as well.
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  • Posted by 9 years, 4 months ago
    I apologize to those that made excellent replies to Temlakos Creationism comments, but it was hi-jacking the post and I decided to hide him. Again, I read all of your replies before I hid his and most of them were excellent. Maybe someone should start a post for him to comment on.
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  • Posted by Watcher55 9 years, 4 months ago
    Interesting, and "leftist bias" in the philosophical interpretation or acceptance of science is certainly visible to those not suffering from it, as is "subjectivist bias" in theoretical physics. We all have 20:20 vision when it comes to other people's blindness :-)

    However on the particular topic of sociobiology it is something of a stretch to label that as "science" with its opponents as philosophically motivated. Some opponents might go too far in the "infinitely malleable by social forces" direction, but the field itself is filled with "just so" stories and likes to go too far in the "your behaviours and even your political preferences are genetic".

    The missing component in both is, of course, the role of reason in what we do. I would say the truth is that we are influenced by our genes, but what we do about it is mainly up to us. Thus the fact I am attracted to women is part of my nature, but which particular women I find most attractive and what I do about it is where my chosen values come into play.
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    • Posted by 9 years, 4 months ago
      Yes, but it's been determined that which 'type' of woman, (physical characteristics and even demonstrated female proclivities) strongly influence that attraction on an unconscious level. But you're also correct, I think, that chosen values and reason can over-ride a certain part of that.

      I'm of the strong conviction that those chosen values should be self determined rather than 'politically correct' values, which many of both sexes are overly influenced by today.

      The science of sociobiology is softer than the hard science of chemistry (as an example) and relies on the combination of several previously separate areas of study including anthropology,comparative DNA, molecular biology and chemistry, and quite a few others. It's also been hindered by the PC fascists and the so called social sciences since the 70's. I think you've expressed the current understandings that genetic proclivities are modified by environment, but are a part of us.
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  • Posted by dbhalling 9 years, 4 months ago
    K & I just listened to a good book tape, The Violinist's Thumb, which is related. The author talks about the Marxist interpretation of biology, which killed biology in the USSR, and Marxist ideas in genetics.

    His conclusion is that genes are more probabilities or tendencies that determinative.
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    • Posted by 9 years, 4 months ago
      If you enjoyed Violinist's Thumb, you might enjoy a fairly new movie titled "Child 44", a serial murder mystery, but set in 1953 USSR where the political mandate, 'There is no murder in Paradise' wouldn't let a dead body be attributed to murder, though it did accept 'crime by mental defectives' that had been tied to German indoctrination or intentional 'plants' during WWII. It's not only a great story, but really demonstrative of so many of the insanities of the socialist state.
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    • Posted by $ Thoritsu 9 years, 4 months ago
      Interesting. I'll have to look that up.

      The USSR was another lie, with data controlled to point to the answer.

      It is very interesting walking this fine line between being completely objective with all the data, and when it is time to draw a conclusion without waiting interminably. It is certainly more prudent to get more data, but one can wait so long the relevant opportunity passes. The ability to conclude close to this line is one measure of intelligence. Of course luck is just as likely to bless or curse someone playing near the line without the requisite knowledge or sharpness.
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  • Posted by khalling 9 years, 4 months ago
    What is "ghost in the machine"?
    2. Although science est. Surely can make its way into the political realm; it seems disingenuous to start from the political to develop it. I agree with j that state funding plays a huge role.
    3. It is common for NIH and the NSF to request
    white papers in areas that have been specifically targeted by the administration as important
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    • Posted by 9 years, 4 months ago
      "Ryle's philosophical arguments in his essay "Descartes' Myth" lay out his notion of the mistaken foundations of mind-body dualism conceptions, comprising a suggestion that to speak of mind and body as a substance, as a dualist does, is to commit a category mistake. Ryle writes:[1]

      Such in outline is the official theory. I shall often speak of it, with deliberate abusiveness, as "the dogma of the Ghost in the Machine." I hope to prove that it is entirely false, and false not in detail but in principle. It is not merely an assemblage of particular mistakes. It is one big mistake and a mistake of a special kind. It is, namely, a category mistake.

      Ryle then attempts to show that the "official doctrine" of mind/body dualism is false by asserting that it confuses two logical-types, or categories, as being compatible. He states "it represents the facts of mental life as if they belonged to one logical type/category, when they actually belong to another. The dogma is therefore a philosopher's myth."

      Arthur Koestler brought Ryle's concept to wider attention in his 1967 book The Ghost in the Machine, which takes Ryle's phrase as its title.[7] The book's main focus is mankind's movement towards self-destruction, particularly in the nuclear arms arena. It is particularly critical of B. F. Skinner's behaviourist theory. One of the book's central concepts is that as the human brain has grown, it has built upon earlier, more primitive brain structures, and that this is the "ghost in the machine" of the title. Koestler's theory is that at times these structures can overpower higher logical functions, and are responsible for hate, anger and other such destructive impulses." Wikipedia
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  • Posted by 9 years, 4 months ago
    Scott, well said. I've made some more recent comments and hides to him. For some reason, and it might be my confusion, some comments that I'd thought hidden re-appeared on the post. Txs for your response.
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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 9 years, 4 months ago
    Reading this reminded me of reading Wilson and Lewontin in college 20 years ago.

    I think at the time I bought the idea that sociobiology was naïve to think we could study these questions without cultural bias, but now this position seems like giving up. Clearly it's hard to find the truth in a world full of “those on the right/left” and all the other biases we have, but truth still exists.

    The article talks about how “those on the left” like Jered Diamond's focus on the effects of geography on human civilization in Guns, Germs, and Steel and presumably would not like his support for studying genetic variation in ethnic groups. Who cares what they'd like?
    “You want answers!?”
    “I want the truth!”
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  • Posted by Temlakos 9 years, 4 months ago in reply to this comment.
    The point is: 5300 years ago, or as much as 100 years earlier or later, a violent event occurred that formed the strata, killed all the animals buried in them, and also formed the meteoroids, comets, asteroids, and trans-Neptunian objects. And the small and other irregular moons of Mars and all the gas giants. And that time frame comports easily with a certain body of writing that happens to contain a detailed history, including genealogical records, king lists, and event intervals.
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    • Posted by Esceptico 9 years, 4 months ago
      If this is truly your belief, I do not understand why you have any desire to be in the Gulch. You would be better off at CSC.
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      • -2
        Posted by Temlakos 9 years, 4 months ago
        CSC is a one-man operation. Having said that, I happen to have had the honor of collaborating with Walter T. Brown on approximating the date for the violent event he describes at such length.

        And I repeat: evolution is a fraud. No person who professes a respect for objective reality can hold with it for very long.

        You do not see--none of you see--the dissent from the orthodox view of that theory.

        You never heard--I wonder how many in the Gulch have heard--that Charles Darwin himself expressed this salient doubt: why, if his theory was at all correct, did every single fossil found, represent a fully formed species, and not a transitional form as he predicted? Where were--and for that matter, where are--the multitude of transitional forms? Where are the links in what ought to be analogous to a chain-mail shirt? Have you ever heard of the expression "Missing Link"?

        This could have been what Ayn Rand herself meant by "After all, the theory of evolution is only an hypothesis."

        You shudder at the thought of the alternative hypothesis--that this world did have a Chief Architect after all, though Rand denied Him all her life. But what you follow instead is a null hypothesis (that has a special meaning in statistics), the odds against which are so long that any intellectually honest statistician would have rejected it long before this.

        I challenge you, one and all, to debate the alternative hypothesis, and approach it with the same discipline Rand demanded for the examination of any other part of reality.

        And don't begin with what you call "the primary literature." I submit to you that is a piece of dogma equally as offensive to objective reality as is the Qu'ran.
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        • Posted by Esceptico 9 years, 4 months ago
          First of all, I don't think the Gulch is place for debate, but, rather a place for discussion. I have no idea why you are here because you seem to have an undercurrent of anger when somebody disagrees with you. I have a question below, but first I am going to explain why I am asking it.

          I came to the conclusion people are religious for psychological rather than philosophical reasons. The reason deals in great part with Festinger’s findings. He found most beliefs are not amenable to change. The most difficult beliefs for people to examine are those beliefs which have been (1) held for a long time, (2) adopted before age of reason, and (3) most often repeated.

          The overwhelming majority of the people who are religious, were raised to be religious. Their first indoctrinations into the teachings of religion came from their parents, family, relatives, later on from churches and school. Their exposure to religion far preceded any appreciation of the philosophical arguments that have been adduced to support religious belief. The emotional commitment is years earlier in the person’s development than the arguments he may subsequently memorize to support his belief.

          The question is: Where you brought up in a religous household?
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          • -1
            Posted by Temlakos 9 years, 4 months ago
            Yes, I was. I stay with it because, contrary to what you continue to assert, the evidence favors it.

            I do not feel anger. I do feel disappointment. Disappointment that people who pride themselves in looking at objective reality, simply cannot imagine that something has happened in a past that is far less distant than they supposed, that they cannot explain. And when someone presents them with evidence of that fact, they accuse that person of, for lack of a better way to describe it, lying.

            The first tale I ever heard about the event the Greeks called "cataclysm" ("Mother of All Storms") and various translations of a certain Writing call "The Flood," centered only on the story of the one man who, 120 years in advance of the event, received advance warning and built a ship to prepare for it. And in those early accounts, that ship wasn't much to look at: basically an oversized claw-footed bathtub with the claw feet removed and a pilothouse incongruously perched on top. If that's your memory of the Flood story, I don't blame you for staying skeptical about it now.

            But I do blame you for refusing to examine the evidence, and dismissing it out-of-hand just because it does not conform to something else you have memorized.

            In fact I do not claim that the Flood was a miraculous event. It was an accident waiting to happen. The miracles were (a) the 120 years' advance warning a certain shipwright had of the event, (b) said shipwright receiving some form of inspiration for a ship that could withstand the event, and (c) certain winds, kicked up no doubt when the first mountains rose up from the compression of the continental plates and displaced the air above them, happening to catch the ship just right to push it into an eddy cut off from the main flow (for that is how the phrase rendered "highlands of Ararat" really should translate), so that it would stay out of the most violent seas that would otherwise have crushed it.

            Beyond that: I recommend a man named Lee Strobel. Who, unlike myself, did not grow up in a religious household. He set out to disprove the existence of any Chief Architect of the world, only to find the evidence the world had such an Architect nothing short of overwhelming. He even wrote a book about it: "The Case for Faith." Look it up.

            And last, and possibly most important: I refuse to answer to any person other than an administrator as to the appropriateness of my words or my choice of venue. If you think you can take the by-laws of this forum into your own hands, and expect me to respect that taking-of-the-by-laws-into-your-own-hands, please disabuse yourself of that notion.

            And that goes for anyone here other than an accredited and properly empowered, and identified, administrator.
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            • Posted by Esceptico 9 years, 4 months ago
              No anger. Your last line comes across to me as somewhat like throwing down the gauntlet or slapping gloves across the face of some opponent. Whatever.

              Although you do not directly answer my question, it appears to me the answer is yes, you did grow up in a religious household.

              I think you have sunk into an intellectual squalor I have previously not seen at the Gulch. You attack me on several grounds. You state I am trying to be an administrator of the blog. You say such things as you believe in the universal flood. All I can say is, live your life as you would live it.

              By the way, I have several of the books of Lee Strobel in my library and have read them. Unfortunately, I find him to a typical Christian apologist—not a critical thinker. Frankly, I classify him (at best) as in error and (at worst) a nut case.

              I am sure you claim religion is a matter of faith, which of course it is. I don’t have any faith. I don’t respect faith. I don’t believe in faith. I would be very foolish if, after a person has announced he holds his belief by faith, if were to then try to argue with such a person because the only means I have are reason, empirical demonstration, rules of evidence, and so forth.

              None of these are relevant to the grounds of faith-based belief. So I don’t argue. But, people of faith are very defensive because they want intellectual respect for positions that were not arrived at intellectually. They want the respect to which they know they are not entitled. They want me to treat their faith or their mystical belief with the same respect I treat another person’s rational or scientific conviction. When they do not get respect, they get antagonistic or offended.

              I think it is clear that in a case such as this discussion, your defensiveness is an issue of an intellectual bad conscience more than anything else. More technically, you deal with cognitive dissonance as Festinger would expect you to.

              With that, I end this discussion. I have some utterly inconsequential matters which require my inattention.
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            • Posted by 9 years, 4 months ago
              I've been hitting the hide button on you for a while now, but occasionally, you keep popping back up and since this is my post, I guess I'll have to reply to your abusive nonsense.

              I for one, am not going to give your nonsense that which you desire the most, the respect you believe will give some added credence to your belief. You only get respect by earning it, and you certainly haven't earned mine.

              You use the same techniques that your vaunted mentor uses--challenge anyone to a debate, on his terms only using his material only, and then never accept or show up, refusing to publish any of his 'work' for peer review, etc, etc.

              But more, in response to the last part of your comment, your juvenile, abusive attempts to hi-jack another member's posting to proselytize this type of nonsense only goes to prove exactly what the authors of the referenced material are trying to point out through your demonstration. But to the point of this reply, the site gives the poster the right to 'Hide' you from his posting for inappropriate commenting and hi-jacking. I only regret that in hiding you, I also hide some excellent replies to your nonsense comments.
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        • Posted by CircuitGuy 9 years, 4 months ago
          " the theory of evolution is only an hypothesis."
          It's a hypothesis that's been tested and become a theory, a theory that is part of the underpinning of modern biological science.
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  • -1
    Posted by Temlakos 9 years, 4 months ago in reply to this comment.
    The point is: the evolutionary model depends on the earth being 4.5 billion years old. But that same evidence came from a very violent event that happened only fifty-three hundred years ago, give or take a hundred. You simply cannot support the theory of evolution. Adaptation to environment can take place rapidly--more rapidly than the classical theory gives it credit for. But not so rapidly that in about 7000 years, /one/ ancestral life form could have given rise to /every/ development line for /every/ form of life.
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    • Posted by Esceptico 9 years, 4 months ago
      As dbhalling says, "This is not true and shows a complete lack of understanding of the epistemological basis of science." It also illustrates which of two metaphysical primacies you have selected.

      Let me be clear, everyone holds one side or the other of the issue of metaphysical primacy. There are no other options. One must choose either the primacy of existence, which means existence ranks first (is primary) before anything else; or the primacy of consciousness, which means consciousness is primary and outranks existence. There is no middle ground.

      To claim the earth is only a few thousand years old means you believe that, not only with a lack of evidence, but in the face of all credible evidence I have ever seen.

      I Think you are giving credibility to writers who thought the earth was flat and were baffled by where it went at night. People who had no idea about astronomy or geology or any of the myriad of sciences which independently converge to support evolution.
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      • -3
        Posted by Temlakos 9 years, 4 months ago
        The key is "the credible evidence you have seen."

        First, only you can decide what you want to believe, and what you refuse to believe.

        Second, I invite you to look at some evidence you haven't seen.
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        • Posted by Esceptico 9 years, 4 months ago
          Show me the evidence. There is little, if anything, on CSC that would qualify as evidence. Use the Federal Rules of Evidence if you want a standard. They are not perfect, but will give some guidance as to what qualifies as credible evidence.

          I also think this (rather primary) discussion does not contribute to restoring the site to quality Objective thought.
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          • -1
            Posted by Temlakos 9 years, 4 months ago
            Then you have not looked at the evidence. Of course, it takes a lot longer than just an hour (or less) to read through a site like that.

            Take just one page in that book:

            http://creationscience.com/onlinebook...

            The page shows a synoptic table showing Brown's theory--specifically as regards the origins of comets--and every other theory out there. The left-most column lists all the evidence that demands an explanation.

            Do you deny any of the items listed in that row-header column?

            Can you suggests a formation mechanism for comets that comports with any theory out there, other than the Hydroplate Theory? Or any other theory to explain ice on the Moon and especially the planet Mercury?

            For that matter, can you explain why, though the earth has a number of companion asteroids, Venus has none, nor Mercury? Why do neither of those planets have satellites, but every planet beyond the Earth has satellites? I'm talking specifically about the irregular satellites, that are in fact captured asteroids.

            Can you explain that frozen carbon-monoxide lake in the western lobe of the Tombaugh Region (the Heart Shape) on Pluto? I can. It came from the burning, in a confined space, of uprooted trees, shrubs, and other vegetable matter carried into space with the rest of the material that formed the body we call Pluto today.

            Did you know that a narrow window, 200 years wide, exists in the past, during which all of the comets would most likely have been at perihelion, if you backtracked them? That window centers on 3290 BC. That suggests the comets, or the material that formed them, launched then.

            Why do the twelve largest TNO's, including Pluto, have identical arguments of perihelion? Why do all the TNO's fall into two clusters of argument-of-perihelion, 180 degrees apart?

            Then there is the formation mechanism for the solar system itself. Can you describe one? Can you describe how any object, let alone such a vast collection of them, can form from colliding dust clouds? Dust clouds don't collide! They would pass through one another. All the dust has to travel together before it can accrete.

            That should do for a starter.
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            • Posted by Esceptico 9 years, 4 months ago
              The kindest way I can put this, I truly do not want to be offensive, is each of these arguments commits the fallacy of the argument from ignorance. And, yes, there are scientific answers to most, if not all, of the questions. But whether or not science now has an answer is not the issue. Are you saying you posit a god as the answer to all these questions?
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              • -1
                Posted by Temlakos 9 years, 4 months ago
                When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth. So said Sir Arthur Conan Doyle.

                You're wrong about the answers that "science" has. You know nothing of the ruthless suppression of all debate, nor of the secret doubts so many scientists hold, and dare not express in fear of their jobs.

                Hans Christian Andersen once spun a morality tale of swindlers who accepted a royal commission and produced nothing in return. They said the wares they sold were invisible to any who were stupid or unfit for their posts. The promulgators of the theory of evolution, are analogous to Andersen's swindlers. And the technique is the same.

                I challenge you to disprove the account of a violent event. As Brown himself does. Let the vaunted scientific community meet him in honest debate. At least one person even suggested such a debate, then reneged on his own offer.
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    • Posted by 9 years, 4 months ago
      Nonsense. This certainly doesn't contribute to "an attempt to restore to the site, a quality of Objective thought, posting, and commentary; as well as further the value of reason over faith/belief." Though it certainly illustrates in 'vivid color', the general issue of my particular concerns, as well as much in the referenced article.

      -1
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      • Posted by conscious1978 9 years, 4 months ago
        Again, the point system fails to allow the positive point value your reply, or Esceptico's, deserves.

        However, "nonsense" doesn't begin to describe the mental vomit (the pieces of unprocessed thought) that constitutes the primitive drivel asserted by 'Temlakos' as 'valid'. How anyone that advocates 'young earth creationism' finds any commonality with Objectivism is beyond reason.

        http://www.conservativenewsandviews.c...
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  • -2
    Posted by woodlema 9 years, 4 months ago
    As a few in the Gulch are so quick to point out, "evidence is not proof."

    That statement in itself confirms what Radcliff said that both left and right both creationist and atheist, are two sides of the same coin.

    it is that faith in the face of reason that binds one faction of the Left to their faith-based counterparts on the Right and like on the Right, the Left has its charlatans and hypocrites delivering these sermons."
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    • Posted by 9 years, 4 months ago
      Ratcliffe was only pointing out two examples of beliefs that can never be tested, but to try to tie that to "evidence is not proof" misses the point completely and is simply mis-categorical logic. Further there is a good deal of actual difference between creationist and atheist. Atheist form their belief from a total lack of evidence, while creationist form their belief in the face of evidence to the counter.
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  • -2
    Posted by Temlakos 9 years, 4 months ago
    I'm probably going to shock a few people here.

    I happen to accept creation. And I have two classes of reason to support it.

    1. As jbrenner has already pointed out, much of the "science" behind biological evolution, "chemical evolution" (abiogenesis), and even nuclear physics, turns out to be non-reproducible. In fact it's just a repetition of the same old line. Nobody bothers to look at the evidence in any other way--and in fact the evidence they claim is often wildly inconsistent.

    2. I have hard evidence that this planet suffered an event violent enough to produce all the physical evidence the biological evolutionists routinely invoke--in a span of time little longer than a year. An event violent enough to kill every human being then alive--except for eight adults who had the presence of mind to sense (or heed a warning of) what was to come, and to build a vessel capable of withstanding the event and bringing them and several sets of live land-animal and avian specimens through it alive. An event that left its scars not only on the earth but throughout the entire solar system.

    You can see the full catalog of that evidence here:

    http://creationscience.com/onlinebook/

    I ask you all, in the spirit of objective inquiry, to follow that evidence and tell me where it leads.
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    • Posted by $ jlc 9 years, 4 months ago
      I read a bit (in the spirit of inquiry), and was not impressed. Erroneous statements are made and then conclusions are announced, based on those statements.

      It has convinced you; it totally failed to even interest me.

      Jan
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    • Posted by Flootus5 9 years, 4 months ago
      As a University trained geologist with two degrees I find this creation science website quite interesting.

      When I began my education in geology, the theory of plate tectonics was in full swing and was rapidly integrating the various sub-disciplines into a coherent picture of the history of the earth. It was bringing geophysics, geochemistry, stratigraphy, paleontology, geochronology and a host of study areas together. Since then I have stayed professionally active in the science and have watched for 40 years now how more...and more....and more....data keep coming together to support this understanding.

      It is amazing how detailed, complexly intertwined now, and how thoroughly these disciplines support the understanding that the earth is very old. Is it complete? Hardly. The level of knowledge will always increase and refine these understandings. But the fundamentals are there and it has been wonderful to have lived in this time.

      So, I find it interesting that some will still take all this amassed and integrated data and still try to massage it and square peg it into the circular hole of a cherished myth that the earth is not as old as all this data supports and therefore evolution of life forms over millions of years could not have occurred.

      Having said that, the age of the earth is a topic and evolution versus creation is a topic. This is where the politics of divisiveness comes in and plays a role. The argument is artificial and contrived to divide people. In my mind and conclusion, the understanding of the age of the earth and the long history of life on the planet - including humans - supports the understanding of evolution. However, this is the method of creation and is no less miraculous in its grandeur.
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      • Posted by CircuitGuy 9 years, 4 months ago
        " The argument is artificial and contrived to divide people. In my mind and conclusion, the understanding of the age of the earth and the long history of life on the planet - including humans - supports the understanding of evolution. However, this is the method of creation and is no less miraculous in its grandeur"
        Yes! I am not an expert in these areas, but I appreciate learning about the scientific models/theories. Thank you.
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    • Posted by Watcher55 9 years, 4 months ago
      My only advice to someone tempted by creationist BS is to (1) read the critiques of it by scientific experts in the field, and (2) if you have the time, inclination and sufficient background knowledge, read through the creationist literature looking up the primary references.

      The latter is a real eye-opener. In the paleolithic era when I was young, I found creationist arguments quite compelling. Then (doing a biology degree and all) I started chasing down the references they quoted. It is not an exaggeration to say that every single one was either a gross misrepresentation, a childish misunderstanding, a logical fallacy, or some obscure one-off report that nobody really understood and had nothing to do with creationism except at a stretch one could interpret it that way.

      The fact that evolution has occurred and is responsible for all the variety of life on earth is attested by irrefutable evidence from paleontology, biochemistry and genetics. Sure, if you read creationist literature you'll think that isn't the case. But to paraphrase Disraeli, there are lies, damned lies, and creationist literature.
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      • -3
        Posted by Temlakos 9 years, 4 months ago
        Watcher55, I assure you: you have it backwards.
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        • Posted by Watcher55 9 years, 4 months ago
          Given how much research I have done on this topic, I can assure you that I have it exactly the right way. If you are a trained geneticist or paleontologist, or have at least read the primary literature rather than the tissue of lies creationist authors spew forth, then you might have something to say worth hearing.
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    • Posted by dbhalling 9 years, 4 months ago
      This shows a complete lack of understanding of the epistemological basis of science.
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      • -3
        Posted by Temlakos 9 years, 4 months ago
        To the contrary, I offer it as evidence that the promoters of the narrative of biological evolution, and not those of creation, have been violating the rules of the epistemology of science.
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        • Posted by 9 years, 4 months ago
          You miss the point of the post entirely, unless you are arguing by example, that Marx and Stalin and those that believed in them were just as valid in their beliefs over reason as are you.
          -1
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          • -3
            Posted by Temlakos 9 years, 4 months ago
            Marx and Stalin offered belief in evolution, and the astoundingly arrogant believe that each could re-make humankind. What do you think "New Communist Man" was supposed to be about? It was about evolution.

            Evolution and individual rights are incompatible. Evolution says we are no better than animals, or "collections of chemicals." Rand knew that, but didn't follow the logic as she should have.
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    • Posted by Esceptico 9 years, 4 months ago
      The trail, in the spirit of objective inquiry, leads me to evolution.
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      • -3
        Posted by Temlakos 9 years, 4 months ago
        I don't see how it would. The evidence at the link I gave, invalidates the premise that the earth is incredibly old. So not enough time can have passed. Live did not have one ancestor. It had several.
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        • Posted by Esceptico 9 years, 4 months ago
          I disagree with your conclusion. CSC looks like the same old First Cause argument to me. In short, I think evidence is seriously lacking for what is portrayed on the six minute video and the other offerings at CSC. There is simply too much evidence, converging from too many disciplines of science, to give any credibility to creationism. The site is, to me, 100% Christian apologetics, not science.

          Whether the evolution or creationism is correct, is a epistemological question. One should always ask: What do I know? (metaphysics) and How do I know it? (epistemology). Brown wants to believe what he says is true and nothing will change his mind. This is because of the common culprit cognitive dissonance, something all of us must constantly guard against.

          A seeker of truth must always allow the possibility he may be wrong. I do. I will change my belief if presented with solid evidence to the contrary. But, it is not easy.
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          • -3
            Posted by Temlakos 9 years, 4 months ago
            But you have the same problem you say I have. The evolutionists want to believe what they say is true. (Because, Lord knows, if what they are saying is not true, and the world turns out to have had a Chief Architect after all, they'd have a lot to answer for.)
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            • Posted by Esceptico 9 years, 4 months ago
              Your conclusion is too easily attacked and overcome. The evolutionists I know, including myself, do not "want" to believe any particular conclusion. We believe only when the evidence drives us to the conclusion. Provide solid evidence to the contrary, and I would change my belief.
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              • -2
                Posted by Temlakos 9 years, 4 months ago
                All right.

                Piltdown and Peking "Men." Both frauds. Piltdown Man turned out to be an orangutan. He fooled an awful lot of people before the perpetrators of the fraud admitted it.

                Nebraska "Man," who turns out to be a pig.

                Mount St. Helens. Rock "dating out" at anywhere from half a million to two million years, that formed ten years before sampling.

                The Crinum Coal Mine in Australia. Wood, "dating out" at 37,000 years old, buried in rock "dating out" at a million years old.

                Polystrate fossils.
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                • Posted by Esceptico 9 years, 4 months ago
                  I have no idea what point you are trying to make here.
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                  • -3
                    Posted by Temlakos 9 years, 4 months ago
                    The point is: the evidence on which so many people rely to craft the Evolutionary Narrative turns out to be fraudulent or at best to have no consistent, testable, verifiable defense. And what people don't tell you is, others have put their theoris to the test and found them false.
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                    • Posted by Esceptico 9 years, 4 months ago
                      Not true. Here is the problem as Leon Festinger discovered and worte about in his book "When Prophecy Fails." If you were presented with evidence that even you agreed was accurate, would you change your mind? The answer is most likely no.

                      The problem is cognitive dissonance. For most people there are some beliefs are not amendable to change. In fact, most beliefs are not changeable.

                      The most difficult beliefs for people to examine are those beliefs which have been
                      (1) held for a long time,
                      (2) adopted before age of reason, and
                      (3) most often repeated.

                      Which explains why it is impossible to have a conversation on the two subjects one should never discuss socially: Religious and political beliefs. Both of these belief sets are indoctrinated by parents, teachers, religious leaders, and other adults, almost from birth, many years before the age of reason, and they are the most often repeatedly “drummed” into them. People will kill based upon their beliefs, but they will not examine whether the belief is true or false.
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                      • -2
                        Posted by Temlakos 9 years, 4 months ago
                        Dr. Festinger could apply that thesis to the promoters of evolution.

                        Didn't Rand herself say, "After all, the theory of evolution is only an hypothesis"?

                        Dr. Walt Brown was just beginning his work when she died, more's the pity. Today his work stands as a stark challenge to anyone who says with a straight face that he follows the evidence where it leads, and it comes out "old earth," "no Flood," "uniformitarianism," "abiogenesis," and "common descent."
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                        • Posted by Esceptico 9 years, 4 months ago
                          The psychological effect discovered by Festinger has been replicated thousands upon thousands of time since. Yes, cognitive dissonance does apply to evolutionists. It applies to everyone.

                          I do not understand the rest of your comment.
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                          • -3
                            Posted by Temlakos 9 years, 4 months ago
                            You mean you do understand the rest of my comment, and might yourself suffer some cognitive dissonance.
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                            • Posted by Esceptico 9 years, 4 months ago
                              No. I mean I do not understand the rest of your comment. Please make yourself more clear as to what your point is.
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                              • -3
                                Posted by Temlakos 9 years, 4 months ago
                                The physical evidence says: this planet began with a subcrustal ocean, about fifty miles down. It broke containment where the Mid-Oceanic Ridges now stand. As much as 400 miles eroded off the edges of the Americas to the west, and Europe and Africa to the east. Some of the water washed all over the land areas and depositive three miles of stratified silt containing the carcasses of millions of animals large and small, and even a few human casualties (those that did not par-broil in the supercritically hot water). More of it escaped into space, where it persists as the subglacial oceans on Europa, Ganymede, and Enceladus, and the ices of the comets, the asteroids, and the trans-Neptunian objects. Including the planet (yes, I said "planet") Pluto.

                                One of the recent photographs of Pluto shows that it has a lake of carbon monoxide ice on it. Now how do you think that got there. You have to have wood and oxygen to get carbon monoxide. Wood burning in a confined space. Burning, maybe, from the heat of accretion, using oxygen from photo-dissociated water.

                                Any other questions?
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                    • Posted by 9 years, 4 months ago
                      I fail to find any reliance on the items you list in the theory or science of evolution, the age of the Earth, or anything else you're trying to proselytize about. -1
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            • Posted by 9 years, 4 months ago
              This is proselytizing and very close to post hi-jacking.

              -1
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              • -3
                Posted by Temlakos 9 years, 4 months ago
                I see you are a Producer. So am I.

                Are you an administrator?

                Do you not realize you are behaving exactly as do the Messrs. Thompson and Drs. Ferris of our modern age?
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                • Posted by sdesapio 9 years, 4 months ago
                  Hi Temlakos,

                  I'm a Gulch administrator.

                  While I can appreciate your passion, I'm afraid Zenphamy is right in that you are indeed proselytizing - which is clearly defined in the CoC as something we'd rather not have in the Gulch ( http://www.galtsgulchonline.com/faq#f... ).

                  It's time to step back, take a breath, dial it down a bit, and head towards common ground. Creationists are welcome in the Gulch. The advocating of creationism, not so much.

                  Thanks,
                  Scott
                  Bonafide Gulch Administrator ;)
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    • Posted by CircuitGuy 9 years, 4 months ago
      Thank you for making things interesting by posting things I strongly disagree with. From my understanding, the evidence shows humans appeared here by descent with modification by means of natural selection. Earth appeared billions of hears ago.
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  • -3
    Posted by $ Olduglycarl 9 years, 4 months ago
    We have come to understand, (those of us that wish to simply get it right) that if one has something in mind to expect when searching, looking or learning will get what they expected to see. It's tough to just look to see what is there without any preconceived perceptions. I took Mark Hamilton's and Frank Wallace's concept of 'Wide Scope Accountability' with profound honesty and gave it a proper definition and a process to follow. See: The Fight for Conscious Human Life.
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    • Posted by 9 years, 4 months ago
      This is mysticism, Not science or testable and Objective reality. Human consciousness is by definition human life.

      You can't have "preconceived perceptions" since perception comes from your senses. None of your senses have any demonstrated or proven precognition ability. Beliefs are the only thing that can enable one to form "preconceived perceptions", and that's anathema to Objectivism and denies the value of life as it is in reality.
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      • -2
        Posted by $ Olduglycarl 9 years, 4 months ago
        It's not mysticism, it's quantum physics. Look up quantum event. Beliefs may effect some, however if you suspect you have the answer or know the cause and look for that answer or cause you most likely will find what you expect. It is testable and repeatable. The quantum computer inventors had to shield their machine against the thoughts of the operator in order for the machine to work properly.
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