Maine Court Rules in Favor of Transgender Student

Posted by Maphesdus 10 years, 10 months ago to Legislation
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So according to this decision, it's now effectively illegal for public schools to discriminate on the basis of gender identity in the state of Maine.

Alternate article on Bangor Daily News:
http://bangordailynews.com/2012/11/20/ne...
SOURCE URL: http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/court-transgender-students-rights-violated-22299324


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  • Posted by SolitudeIsBliss 10 years, 10 months ago
    Though I believe in Live and Let Live, the rights of gender original people's rights are being violated by the minuscule percentage of gender confused people.
    And also, a lot of this is just uber-liberal insanity.
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    • Posted by $ 10 years, 10 months ago
      Really? In what way? How does it violate the rights of cisgender people at all?
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      • Posted by rlewellen 10 years, 10 months ago
        Ah but just because someone is transexual does not mean they are homosexual after changing their sex. I don't want someone sexually attracted to me to use the stall next to me. Do I have rights to privacy while I use the bathroom?
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        • Posted by $ 10 years, 10 months ago
          So should gays and lesbians be forced to use different restrooms than straight people?
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          • Posted by rlewellen 10 years, 10 months ago
            Leave politics out of school. When they are 18 all of them can make their own decisions about what they are comfortable with. Let the original sex be the determining factor. Then we won't end up with groups of boys donning dresses to use the girls bathrooms. They will be fine. See my earlier comment.
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            • Posted by $ 10 years, 10 months ago
              Well you said you don't want to use the same restroom as someone who could potentially be sexually attracted to you. Taking that stance to its logical conclusion, such a position would require that gays and lesbians be forced to use the restrooms of the opposite sex, or a separate restroom entirely. You say that politics should be kept out of school, but your own suggestion would impose a political requirement of segregation were it to actually be implemented.

              And why should the original sex be the determining factor? Don't the transgender students have any rights?
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              • Posted by rlewellen 10 years, 10 months ago
                I don't have anyone telling me when I can and can't use the bathroom. If they are divided by physical sex the bathrooms will be almost evenly split between boys and girls. If anyone tries anything in the bathroom they will all be better able to fend off such advances, than a girl can against a boy. Remember just because someone doesn't like to be a boy doesn't mean they stop wanting girls or vice versa. You must realize there will never be a Utopian society where everyone's feelings are protected. My daughter has a learning disability. I couldn't pretend like she didn't need help or hide the fact that the other kids would shy away. That experience helps to teach coping skills as well.
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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 10 years, 10 months ago
    I understand transgender is real, but I don't understand the details. Contrary to what SolutudeIsBliss said, *sex* is biological, not gender. Gender is behavior patterns that are highly related to sex. Sex is based on the chromosomes. So my naive view says we ought to be able to disregard gender altogether and take everyone as an individual. As long as bathrooms stay segregated by sex, you go to the one associated with your sex. Gender is just how you behave. I think my view is naive simply b/c I haven't known any transgender people well.
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    • Posted by $ 10 years, 10 months ago
      Biological Sex:
      The biological factors which determine your genetic and physical make up; controlled primarily by sex chromosomes, but other factors (such as hormone levels in the womb during fetal development) can influence this as well. The two most common chromosomal pairs are XX and XY, though there are many other possible combinations as well, such as XXY, XYY, or even just X. It's also possible for a fertilized egg to contain just a Y chromosome, but such cases always result in the termination of the fetus due to insufficient genetic material. In total there are about 52 different possible combinations of sex chromosomes, though most of the divergent combinations are extremely rare. It's also possible that a person may have a condition known as genetic mosaicism, in which a single individual has both XX and XY cells arraigned in a sort of checkerboard pattern throughout their entire body. It's rare, but it is possible.

      Gender Identity:
      The gender which you internally perceive yourself to be; controlled by a part of the brain called the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BNST). Males typically have a large BNST, while females have a small one. Most of the time this is perfectly aligned with a person's biological sex, though sometimes it can be inverted or even ambiguous. When this occurs in an individual, that person is said to be transsexual.

      Gender Expression:
      Your mannerisms, the way you present yourself, the way you speak, and the clothes you wear. This is the most flexible aspect of gender.

      Sexual Orientation:
      Who you are sexually attracted to; controlled by a part of the brain called the sexually dimorphic nucleus (SDN). Again, it's large in males, and small in females, except for gays and lesbians, who have an SDN the size of the opposite sex.
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      • Posted by $ Susanne 10 years, 10 months ago
        Wow - that's a pretty good explanation on something that is, honestly, clear as mud for most of us. Guess I'm young enough to not get (make that pretty much despise) the hate people spew about people who are like that (It reminds me of boys playing "Put the gay kid in a coma") but old enough to not really understand the nuances of it unless explained like that... so thanks for the explanation. ;-)
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        • Posted by rlewellen 10 years, 10 months ago
          Putting personal feelings of the transgender ahead of other's rights to privacy is not objective.
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          • Posted by $ 10 years, 10 months ago
            If you can objectively demonstrate a way in which it actually violates other people's privacy, you would have a legitimate point. Otherwise...
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            • Posted by rlewellen 10 years, 10 months ago
              Boys should share the bathroom with boys, girls should share the bathroom with girls in high school. If they went all the way through grammar school listed as a boy they are a boy through high school.
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      • -2
        Posted by Hiraghm 10 years, 10 months ago
        "When this occurs in an individual, that person is said to be mentally ill".

        FIFY
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        • Posted by $ 10 years, 10 months ago
          Technically, the latest edition of the DSM lists the condition as "Gender Dysphoria."
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          • Posted by rlewellen 10 years, 10 months ago
            What is DSM?
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            • Posted by $ 10 years, 10 months ago
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              • Posted by rlewellen 10 years, 10 months ago
                Psychiatry statistics, not exactly science. It really makes no difference what caused it. They feel as they do.That is what we are talking about. I suggest that it is indeed a psychological response. Identical twins are not both gay or transsexual. They are as they are. I like mashed potatoes fancy dresses being a girl and I love men. They don't for whatever reason. If it is ever truly determined to be physical then someone can create a pill for anyone that wants to use it. I saw a show with two transexuals that were taking hormones to convert. One became pregnant. They were in love with each other as their original sex but planned to have the final procedure. I guess they were willing to accept the result of that other sex they would be sleeping with after their surgeries. So I guess they are flexible too. .
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                • Posted by $ 10 years, 10 months ago
                  Based on my own experience and people I've talked to, I would have to say that in many cases most people who struggle with it really do have some kind of physical or genetic condition which causes it, but in a few other cases it may sometimes be purely psychological. Of course the problem this presents is how do we distinguish between the two? There is a small fraction of the community which does end up regretting the procedures after the fact, but most find that their own sense of happiness and self-worth is increased. As an advocate for individual freedom and personal responsibility, my own stance is to just let people do whatever they want with their own bodies and live with whatever results that brings, positive or negative.
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                  • Posted by rlewellen 10 years, 10 months ago
                    There is no perfect answer. They are people and I want them treated just as kindly as the next person. The rare chromosomal conditions rarely result in a transgender or homosexual person. I would bet the frequency with in the population with a genetic disorder is not significantly increased over the general population. I agree to disagree. I enjoyed talking with you. I will read all the links you provided.
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    • Posted by SolitudeIsBliss 10 years, 10 months ago
      I refer to Gender as the "sex" of the person, male or female. Sexual Orientation is the result of biological/environmental factors such as hormones and external influences. Hope that clarifies my earlier post.
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    • -5
      Posted by Hiraghm 10 years, 10 months ago
      "transgender" is only real in the sense that nutjobs would rather mutilate their bodies, and batshit crazy doctors would empower them to do so, rather than get their minds treated.
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  • Posted by $ Abaco 10 years, 10 months ago
    This reminds me of a conversation I've had recently with both of my kids. One is a few years older than the other. But, the question comes up, "Daddy, I'm a girl. Will I grow up to be a man?" I then go on to explain that girls grow up to be women and boys grow up to be men. Am I wrong saying this to my kids? In my mind, I'm not. But, is this a crime against humanity to say this kind of thing to my kids? Am I just a neanderthal?
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    • Posted by $ 10 years, 10 months ago
      It depends. Does your daughter who asked the question exhibit any tomboyish tendencies or displeasure at being a girl? Has she ever expressed any desire to be a boy?

      When children ask questions about gender, and whether or not it's possible to change genders, it could possibly mean that child is experiencing gender dysphoria and wants to know if there's a way out. Or it could just mean they're curious about the world and want to know how things work. It's difficult to say for sure without observing the child's behavior over a prolonged period of time.

      But regardless, as long as you're teaching your kids to be kind and respectful towards everyone, including people who are born different, the details don't matter. Honestly, I don't think young children are going to remember the biology lessons their parents presented to them when they grow up, anyway.
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  • Posted by SolitudeIsBliss 10 years, 10 months ago
    I remember a story last year about a couple in Canada that were allowing their child to choose his/her gender orientation since birth. They gave it (sorry, easier than typing him/her) a gender neutral name, did not give it particular clothing or toys to play with. When they were interviewed by media they said it could choose what it wanted to be when it grew up.
    I'm SORRY but isn't that part of PARENTING ????
    I guess I'm just a creature of the 20th century. The 21st century makes no sense to me at all.
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    • Posted by $ 10 years, 10 months ago
      A child's biological gender and gender identity are controlled by genetic factors beyond the parents' control. The type of clothing and toys the child is given to play with is really quite irrelevant. I'm not familiar with the case you're citing, but I expect the child in question most likely gravitates towards the toys and clothing which are most in line with their own internal gender identity, which is also most likely in line with their biological gender. Attempting to raise a child in a gender neutral environment does not produce a transsexual. It's something that's controlled by genetics.

      Of course I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with providing a child with both boys' and girls toys', but the parents are being slightly naive. But as long as they're truly letting the child choose their own path, I don't think it matters.
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  • Posted by mminnick 10 years, 10 months ago
    This case and the case you reference appear to be two separate cases with similar circumstances but with different rulings. Did I get that right?
    If I'm right, the system seems just a little confused and perhaps even demented.
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    • Posted by $ 10 years, 10 months ago
      I just reread both articles to be sure, and it does appear that they are both about the same case. Combining the information from both articles, it appears that what happened was this:

      The former Orono School District, now known as Riverside RSU 26, forbid a male-to-female (MTF) transgender student, Nicole Maines, from using the girl's restroom after the grandfather of a male student complained. (Why does the grandfather even care? It doesn't appear to affect him or his grandson in any way.)

      Initially, the local court in the area ruled against the transgender student, siding with the decision of the school district, but then the case was appealed to a higher court, which reversed the ruling.

      Looking at the dates of each articles, I just noticed that The Bangor Daily News website posted their story on November 20th, 2012, while the ABC News story was posted yesterday. That would explain why the outcomes are different: the story on Bangor Daily is about the initial decision, while ABC New's story is about the reversal of that decision.
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      • Posted by mminnick 10 years, 10 months ago
        The only reason I asked if the cases were different was the dates in the tow articles were different on 2007 the other 2000.
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        • Posted by $ 10 years, 10 months ago
          From what I understand, the sequence of events went like this:

          The original incident occurred in 2007.
          The lawsuit was filed in 2009.
          The lower court judge reached a decision in 2012.
          The higher court reversed that decision in 2014.

          So apparently this case has been on-going for the last seven years.
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          • Posted by mminnick 10 years, 10 months ago
            Time enough for Nicole to be in high school now. Is it still an issue there?
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            • Posted by $ 10 years, 10 months ago
              According to the articles, shortly after the initial incident occurred, Nicole's parents moved her to a different school where her identity as a girl was respected, and she hasn't had any problems since. The lawsuit was more about seeking justice than anything else.

              Plus, now Maine has a clear law in place should any other transgender students encounter a similar issue in the future.
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  • Posted by $ Abaco 10 years, 10 months ago
    A militant branch of the homosexual community really wants to get to your kids. That's what this is. How does it feel?
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    • Posted by $ 10 years, 10 months ago
      Except not. People just want to be able to pee in peace. That's all.
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      • Posted by $ Abaco 10 years, 10 months ago
        How does one not pee in peace? Peeing in the bathroom the architects designed for you isn't enough? This is everything about kids and parental rights and nothing about peeing. How about here in California where, if I was back playing high school football I can tell you where I'd shower now - in the girls locker room. To deny me that actually does traumatize me in some way.
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        • Posted by khalling 10 years, 10 months ago
          Part of the " traumatizing is association and later about embarrassment /harrassment. I find it hard to believe that all the other kids are traumatized by this and easier to believe there 's a fair amount of misunderstanding. Hoe ever until the society can accept these realities, you cannot give one group rights over another. I do not really see that in this case. The ruling appears to be reasonable. In your bathroom stall presumably no one is watching you. End of story.
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        • Posted by $ 10 years, 10 months ago
          The California bill you're talking about doesn't allow anyone to use whatever restrooms they want. Students have to actually prove they're transgender first before they're allowed to use the appropriate gendered facilities.

          http://www.galtsgulchonline.com/posts/40...
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          • Posted by $ Abaco 10 years, 10 months ago
            LOL. How do they prove it?

            Why can't my daughter "pee in peace" without concern that a boy might invade her space while she's got her knickers down? See the problem here Maphesdus? Are you a parent, a biological parent? See what happens when government SANCTIONS sexual orientation? It gets messed up and opened to abuse.

            This is an odd form of collectivism and nothing more...Subject your kids to transgender people in the restroom for the good of the people. It's all part of a rope-a-dope, which is why it is being pushed by the government. I repeat - this is about kids, getting to your kids.
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