Add Comment

FORMATTING HELP

All Comments Hide marked as read Mark all as read

  • Posted by $ Thoritsu 9 years, 4 months ago
    This objectivist would intervene. I've done it before, and would do it again.

    My logic:
    I am a semi skilled martial artist, pretty tough and pretty strong, therefore the risk to me is modest
    Yes, there is risk to me, BUT
    my action would provide confidence and incentive to others (present or learning of it) to also stand up for themselves/others
    This supports my objective for the world of people to be self policing in such situations
    The benefit far outweighs the risk.
    Logically consistent.

    The world, especially the US, needs to have many indigenous white blood cells among the population, not just knowledge of a 30 minute response to 911. This reduces fear and provides freedom!
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
  • Posted by $ jlc 9 years, 4 months ago
    There are many kinds of strength.

    I am 5'7"...and I look like the archetypal, invisible, 'little brown woman'. You would not look twice at me if you passed me in the street - I could be anybody.

    I have also done martial arts for >50 years. I would have been in that fight in an instant. I would have done my best to tear the knifeman's arm off, stick his own knife in his own eye, break his head, or perform some other type of socially-needed remediation for his personality.

    I have pointed up a lot of responses on this thread. Bravo to the folks who would have acted! For those of you who said that you would have regarded it as philosophically correct not to have acted in defense of the victim, please be aware that if that is the type of society you laud and would construct from your philosophy: I will not be any part of it. That is not a world in which I would live.

    My (late) mother, at 80 years of age and in ill health, would have tottered up to that fight and beat the attacker to death with a loaf of French bread. My father would have crawled off his death bed to tackle the knifeman around the ankles.

    There are many kinds of strength.

    Jan
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
  • Posted by jconne 9 years, 4 months ago
    Others addressed this well, so I'll just raise a couple of points.

    1. Re United 93, the passengers had time to establish enough rapport to collaborate on a response. These people did not.

    I would have looked around for eye contact with other ablebodied men to make a silent pact to attack. I have some police background, but I'm over 70 with significant strength limitations like torn rotator cuffs. The last time I intervened in a public physical situation I completely tore my left subscap. That required two surgeries to rebuild my left rotator cuff. I realize I can no longer act like a young, strong cop. And that leads to...

    2. What if the average person were armed and trained?. That would change the context in this example and on Flight UA 93.
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
    • Posted by $ Thoritsu 9 years, 4 months ago
      That is a great approach, older men and women can still affect others. Strength of character is still strength.
      Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
      • Posted by RonC 9 years, 4 months ago
        It is impossible to say what one would do. We train for various things, and training speeds up the though process when something happens, but until it's in front of you; who knows? I would like to think I would do something. It's easy enough to over power and disarm a guy with a box cutter. Like he needs to be distracted, so finger nails to the eyes or fist to the windpipe gives him something to think about besides Ali Akbar. It is in that moment when he is vulnerable. But you have to be close to work that, and you probably won't get the chance belted into a seat. So, who knows what we (I) would do. I do know this about myself, I don't usually sit around and say "What are we going to do?" In life, business, and sport I have found it better to take action, adjust, then act appropriately again.
        Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
        • Comment hidden by post owner or admin, or due to low comment or member score. View Comment
        • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 9 years, 4 months ago
          Older or not. Under the seat is a life jacket voila'a shield. On your feet are shoes voila twice a club like weapon. With luck the lady in the next aisles had spike high heels. A sap with a point. If you are talking about all they had were box cutters. an effing box cutter for .....sake. Two were flying how many were left in the cabin? I'm being flown to my death and I let some a---ole scare me with a box cutter? Flipping unbelievable. And NO ONE did anything except on one flight? Ever notice how narrow the aisles are? It's one on one at worst. Then if you survive you wait until one of the pussy passengers turns out to be an ACLU lawyer and see how fast it takes him to file against you. If course if your dead he can't file and you can't defend yourself. Better yet take out the lawyers at the same time.
          Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
  • Posted by Herb7734 9 years, 4 months ago
    Im a rickety old guy, but I wouldn't be able to restrain myself. I might try shaming the crowd into action first by shouting something like "Are we going to let this punk get away with this? There are more of us than him!" Sometimes, the smallest incentive will get people to move. However, if this is an example of the new America, of "Millenials," I feel sorry for this country. It's lost its heart and maybe deserves its current fate.
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
  • Posted by Technocracy 9 years, 4 months ago
    I would intervene. As was said in the article, after the murder the thug robbed the other passengers. Something that surprises me not at all.

    I refuse to be a passive victim. I am not altruistic, and consider it one of the greatest evils. I value my own life far more than some random thug. The odds of my being on the train empty handed are non-existent, and there is always something at hand. Improvised weapons may not be pretty, but they can be effective, and I don't fancy going against a knife with empty hands. If nothing else, a belt can be a bit of an equalizer.
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
  • Posted by woodlema 9 years, 4 months ago
    I put it that the "heroic nature described as "selfless" was indeed NOT selfless in any way shape or form.

    "This is essentially the opposite of the spirit of United Flight 93—the heroic selflessness that prompted a group of courageous passengers on 9/11 to attack their hijackers, .."

    Under similar circumstances, my own self interest would dictate that attack is the best form of action to survive. while I may not succeed, and others might live, the point is for my OWN sake, I would attack knowing the certainty of not attacking is death.
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
  • Posted by j_IR1776wg 9 years, 4 months ago
    This in a city that makes it almost impossible to carry a concealed weapon.

    The author never faced the wrong end of a knife in a situation like this.
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
  • Posted by $ allosaur 9 years, 4 months ago
    Helping someone in such distress is a secondary reason why I pack a pocket pistol is so I do not have to stand by and watch something like that.
    Getting old with health issues, I'm not not fighting or grappling with any assailant even for my primary reason of self-preservation.
    I'll just shoot the SOB.
    Old Bama boy is also staying out of sorry places like Washington D.C. and birth state Massachusetts
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
  • Posted by $ rockymountainpirate 9 years, 4 months ago
    I disagree with the author in the due unto others bit, and they weren't being selfish in the sense that Rand means it. Not being there, and only reading the article, I would have stepped in also. It was apparently a small knife, probably about the same size that I always carry, and there were enough people to overpower him. How many women had purses that could be swung hard, even if all it did was distract him from the attack and make him run? What if a few of the men yelled and took aggressive steps toward him? He likely would have stopped before he completed the kill. The fact that they all just stood there allowed evil to prevail.
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
    • Posted by Herb7734 9 years, 4 months ago
      I've carried a knife with a 4 inch blade ever since I was a Boy Scout. It comforts me when I can't carry. Besides, a knife comes in handy for many tasks.
      Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
      • Posted by $ rockymountainpirate 9 years, 4 months ago
        I agree. Mine isn't that big, but it fits easily in my pocket so I can carry without anyone knowing I have it. I feel naked without it. I also carry a few small ones in my purse. If necessary I can put my big survival knife on my belt.
        Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
  • Posted by LibertyBelle 9 years, 4 months ago
    In the case of the 911 crash, people were defend-
    ing their country, and unwilling to live as slaves.
    But I still find the behavior in the other incident
    somewhat bizarre, as there were plenty of people
    who could have ganged up together on the thug and wrested the knife from him, without very
    much risk to themselves.
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
  • Posted by tdechaine 9 years, 4 months ago
    The author is either naïve or stupid. This incident is certainly not the same as on the 911 flight. In the latter case, everyone knew they were going to die without action. On the subway, everyone knew that they might die if they intervened. In both cases, people acted to save themselves because the risk was determined to be too great if they did the opposite.
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
  • Posted by Temlakos 9 years, 4 months ago
    You'd have to hold me back. He who attacks one of my fellow citizens without provocation, attacks me in the same action. I wouldn't vouch for that knife-wielder surviving the encounter.
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
  • Posted by BrettRocketSci 9 years, 4 months ago
    I'm happy with the other responses so far. I believe it is in our rational self-interest to defend the right to life for all individuals, even when it isn't our own. And it's up to our own initiative, leadership, and creativity to do it in a way that doesn't threaten our own lives or values. This is a sad case when one person with initiative, courage, and leadership would have used strength in numbers to save a life from an immoral attack.
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
  • Posted by Zenphamy 9 years, 4 months ago
    An interesting question for an Objectivist. I think from both a gut reaction and an Objectivist position, I'd have to try to stop the attack and I'd be yelling at others to help as well. Thuggery should never be rewarded with cowardice.

    But I've been there, done that, and got the coffee cup. Most Objectivist have not been tested in such a manner. For that matter, not that many men in general have experienced this type of event. But I've also seen a lot of women step into such events as well without fear, and often times to shame the men there that haven't interfered. Though a brouhaha between two men on the other hand is not to be interfered with.
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
  • Posted by Mamaemma 9 years, 4 months ago
    An objectivist would have acted to stop the murder because to do so would be to serve his values. A truly selfish person could not have stood by and watched that happen.
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
    • Posted by philosophercat 9 years, 4 months ago
      An objectivist acts rationally understanding the context and values at stake. You must know that you can control the situation if you act. That means knowing how to overpower a probably drug infested person disarm them and then render them helpless until others get their courage and the police arrive. That's a big bit of knowledge about one's self that is necessary for action. Objectivism says be rational and act in context. You would quickly see who you could count on because of how they fled to the ends of the car. A physically confident person moves differently than a fear driven person. You sense their awareness and smoothness of motion, Think Ragnar or D;Anconia at the steel mill. If they are experienced all it takes is hand gestures to set up a coordinated response. Obviously no one was packing, too bad and no Marines on board. .
      Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
      • Posted by Herb7734 9 years, 4 months ago
        This makes my blood boil. Ask yourself, why does a person volunteer for the military, and why do we applaud him for doing it? There are times when defending others is tantamount to defending yourself. Yes, there is a risk, but look at the punk making a pass at all the others on the train car who fall into line like sheep. I am not a sheep nor am I a tree. I am a man and I will act like one.
        Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
        • Posted by philosophercat 9 years, 4 months ago
          No one volunteers for the military to be killed. They join to fight for freedom with buddies you can trust in situations you control. If you could control the situation then you are probably ex military or police or at least NFL I've been there and the test is the ability to command the situation and that means getting allies. Can you fight through a knife wound or would you just cry? If you could not do that then take your boiling blood and cool it down to a rational level. Its the ability to think rationally that gets good outcomes.
          Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
          • Posted by Herb7734 9 years, 4 months ago
            That's true. But certain professions have a greater risk of death than others. Those who volunteer have to be aware of this and factor it into their decision. While I may get angry at the situation, that doesn't mean I also get irrational. Of course I would need to evaluate the situation. But as described, an 18 year old punk with a knife? What a bunch of train riding weenies.
            Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
    • Posted by tdechaine 9 years, 4 months ago
      You are absolutely wrong. A selfish person (properly defined) would protect his own life first. One should weigh the danger/risk to self + the value of the other person (thus worth greater risk for those most cared for) before acting in such a case.
      Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
      • Posted by Zero 9 years, 4 months ago
        I'm with you 100%, TD.
        This is a lethal situation with a determined attacker.
        Unless you're packing or trained you have no business wading into that.

        Now, if it's your wife or child that's another matter. Of course you'll risk your life for them - lay it down if need be - but not for a stranger.
        (Pretty sure this is the 'official' OBJ opinion, too. The Virtue of Selfishness addresses this.)

        Of course, if you know what you're doing, that's a different story. Then it's up to your own judgment about how manageable the situation is. Bruce Lee isn't facing the same situation as Joe Guy from accounting.

        And yes, taking nothing away from the folks on the plane, but they knew they were dead unless they fought. Not the same situation at all.

        One last thing - if you're not afraid of a 4 inch knife - you need to learn more about knives. Try asking the dead man on the floor.
        Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
  • Posted by Flootus5 9 years, 4 months ago
    I imagine these DC metro type trains no longer have the cord that you can pull to stop the train?

    This is primarily another story of the right to self defense having been taken away. Concealed carry, even a BIGGER knife - "Now, That's a Knife!" I think if I were a DC resident (forbid!), I would routinely carry a taser, a blackjack, ANYTHING to take control of a situation. That is what an objectivist would do.
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
  • Posted by Eudaimonist 9 years, 4 months ago
    While I certainly do not view ethics as a matter of survival-at-any-price, I would probably avoid getting myself stabbed by a man probably stronger and more battle-tested than myself, and I wouldn't feel guilt either. We don't have a duty to help strangers when our own lives would be put in danger -- that truly would be an ethic of self-sacrifice. What we have is a prudent judgment that we must make under the circumstances. Perhaps brave knights are to be praised for their courage, but there is no need for guilt over what is essentially not a duty.

    I'll agree that if I could intervene without risking my life and health, then certainly I should. If I were to hear a rape taking place outside my apartment, I should at least call the police.

    I recommend reading Ayn Rand's essay "The Ethics of Emergencies", plus David Kelley's book Unrugged Individualism, to get some depth on this issue.
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
    • Posted by 9 years, 4 months ago
      I look at these people and think about the calls (here and in other places) to fight for our freedoms and rights. Fight totalitarianism and all the other isms. It's our duty. How can one think that is possible if in the face of this we have no duty to respond?
      Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
  • Posted by $ Abaco 9 years, 4 months ago
    I used to ride the commuter train to work. I decided that, because I would react in a way that would put myself at risk, I should stop riding the train. I've been driving in for about 8 years now.
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
  • Posted by $ sjatkins 9 years, 4 months ago
    It is not rational to put one's own life at risk to help a complete stranger generally speaking. There are circumstances where it would be though - principally where some deeper value is at stake than the proximate risk to one's life. In the situation described I don't see that this is the case. Now if it was a violent attack by government goons or if one's own life was in danger anyway then it might be rational to intervene directly.
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
  • Posted by term2 9 years, 4 months ago
    How about three or four fellow passengers come at this idiot from 4 sides and confuse him. Just watch animal planet video to see how effective this is !
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
  • Posted by term2 9 years, 4 months ago
    I would have assessed just what I could to to stop the killing without being seriously hurt, and enlisted the help of anyone else to accomplish this. Objects like handbags, coats, and such can be used as foils
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
  • Posted by gcarl615 9 years, 4 months ago
    Well I am stupid and I am also 6'4 and 220 lbs. For some idiotic reason when confronted with a situation like this I have a bad habit of jumping in and trying to stop the violence. I know I shouldn't but I always have.
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  

FORMATTING HELP

  • Comment hidden. Undo