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Once one side ops for force you have two choices. Attempt to have rational negotiations with someone who has shown their rational is all about power, or retaliate with equal or grater force to eliminate the threat.
This question is indicative of the day we live in. It is in essence asking, what shades of freedom are willing to loose in order to keep from having to stoop to violence.
When Marquis de Lafayette said "When the government violates the people's rights, insurrection is, for the people and for each portion of the people, the most sacred of the rights and the most indispensible of duties." it was a profound statement.
This sacred right and indispensable duty is disposed of when a question such as this is asked. If force is used against a people they have a right and duty to remove that force.
you should have stopped at "we can't".
Peaceful conflict resolution is going to require fundamental changes in world philosophy and morality derived from philosophy.
Most societies and cultures and their underlying philosophies in our world claim to promote the individual. At the same time holding sacrifice for others as the highest virtue. A fundamental contradiction that cannot be resolved since they are in opposition and only one of the two can have primacy.
If history shows us anything, it shows us that sacrifice to others, in the person of the state rather than individuals, has controlled. The only real difference between most societies has been in how the state was controlled. We have or have had, Monarchy, Democracy, Republic, Totalitarianism, Communism, Socialism, Democratic Republics, etc. You get the picture, almost anything we can think of has been tried at some point.
A primary failing of every society, including ours sadly enough, is in protection of individual rights. Of particular significance fundamentally are property rights. Why focus on property rights? Because of all other rights this is the one that can be measured and quantified fairly easily.
Consider this:
If states or individuals do not respect your property rights, why would they respect any other of your rights as an individual??
They won't, as history has also shown, over and over and over. Every war you research has had economic causes at base. Always over property and rights to it in some form. To end conflict, the drivers for conflict have to be stopped.
Let me give two examples:
The crusades to the middle east, all of them. If you go through the historical record there is a single drumbeat underlying all of them. Land and income for younger sons of nobility. Under common law throughout Europe at the time, and upheld by the Church, was that property inheritance passed down to the eldest son exclusively. Beyond that initial grant the inheritor could distribute to siblings. Most distributions from the new noble were to buy their brother(s) as spot in the church to take them out of line of succession. That way they no longer had motive to remove their elder sibling.
Or on a smaller scale, and current. Look at the rioting and looting in Baltimore. Did looting stores have anything to do with the incident that sparked the riot? Nope, but the Mayor ordered the police to back off and allow the looting. I don't know about you, but I would sell any property I had and leave. When the local government gives random thugs more right to your property than you have, you have no protections at all.
Objectivism addresses this at a fundamental level by resolving the contradiction of individual Vs sacrifice. Sacrifice of yourself is not a virtue, it is the opposite of virtue. Evil makes a good word for it if we can agree to use the word independent of Theism.
So at a fundamental level individual rights have to be the base upon which society rests.
After all the reverse of giving is taking, and if you don't give enough the state comes in to take. States protect rights on a limited basis, even in America.
And use all small letters.
Then we can say lesser of one evil.
What you are talking about is nothing short of tyranny. It's certainly what the leftists want, but its establishment would take away rights - not protect them.
The concern would be weather society at that point adopt a Kantian type of philosophy vs. a Randian philosophy. So long as it is a Randian philosophy based on rational thinking, self interest, acknowledging reality, individualism ,etc... Then let's go!
I wish we could get an Objectivist secularism movement going in the schools as opposed to what we have now. What we have now is secularism moving towards mystics of muscle as opposed to mystics of the mind - when with all the strides made in the sciences - we should be moving in a directly of rational reason.
The Progressive movement has been at work to stop this for a long time though... :(
In any case, politicians do resemble the electorate - it is the people who are voting them in. The problem is to teach reality, analytical thinking, etc... This needs to happen in the schools so we have a generation or two of real thinkers/learners vs the results we are currently getting from the Kantian secularists that currently have control over the education system.
question -- world peace. . my answer is simple.
strength. . the world is peaceful around my house
because we are strong and show it. . we need not
be the world's policePerson if we lead by strength
and tolerance of everyone's uniqueness. . R E S P E C T
for others, with INtolerance for violence. . we should
stop people like Putin and Khameini (Iran) by refusing
to allow them into ANY monetary interactions while
they are acting up. . freeze them out. . grow our
economy with laissez-faire capitalism and use the
resultant strength to influence others against violence
and international encroachment. . IMHO. -- j
.
We need to return to the era when individuals were better armed than the government. That's the only way anyone will ever escape tyranny. (And today that means moving outside any of the areas the big nations own or are fighting for, at least until we're big enough to defy them.)
Conflict among individuals is human nature and unavoidable. And no society bigger than a small tribe (say, 150 people) can expect to do without an active police force for any length of time.
Rand observed that there is no conflict of interest between rational men. And that man has the power of reason. And, further, that consciousness has volition. Reason and volition are what can overcome "human nature", which is the built-in animal-level (pre-human) system of functioning. That applies to all humans, including those whom we have entrenched as millennia-long enemies. All humans have the same self-interest: to live, survive, prosper. The question becomes: how can we achieve that without mutual destruction; how can we reach that point of interaction where there is no conflict of interest, where thinking can transform or redirect feelings into rational action?
And even between two "perfect" objectivists or libertarians, there are conflicts of interest, because being a "perfect" [either] doesn't mean you see everything exactly the same way as another "perfect" [either].
"Conflict of interest" as described by Ayn Rand does not mean that people don't have different goals or ideas on how to attain them. It has nothing to do with an intrinsicist notion of "perfect".
The principle is explained her essay The "Conflicts" of Men's Interests
in the Virtue of Selfishness. A-philosophical libertarian subjectivists can't help.
The necessity of government at all in a rational society is a different question than the conflicts you are talking about: "no bombs, no drones, no massacres, no torture -- despite cultural differences among nations and individuals". That depends on having a culture of reason and individualism regardless of differences in details between societies and governments. Without that there can be no peace because the statists, collectivists and anarchists of various kinds will not allow it. Being reasonable and peaceful does not restrain those who are not. See Ayn Rand's essay The Roots of War in her book Capitalism the Unknown Ideal.
Having a rational culture at all is dependent on a generally understood philosophy of reason properly formulated. Without that people don't know enough to make the proper choices, let alone how to judge individual choices and actions. The Enlightenment with its emphasis on reason and individualism was a strong and necessary start but not enough. See Leonard Peikoff's books The Ominous Parallels and Objectivism: The Philosophy of Ayn Rand, i.e., Ayn Rand's philosophy in general. There are many basic philosophical questions that must be formulated and answered. There is much more to it than simply saying don't violate people's rights.
Even if there were only 2 people left on Earth, one of them would, eventually, assume the role of the superior. Oh, sure, we would make a valiant attempt at maintaining "equality", but human nature would take over, in time. When desperate enough, your mind will tend to convince you that any action is justified.
have no respect for individual rights,and attack us,
or attack our important allies, such as Great Brit-
ain or Israel. We just have to be prepared to de-
feat them in war.--Now, in the case of not being at war with such a nation (as yet), perhaps we
could propagandize Objectivism, in the form of
letter bombs dropped there, written in their own
language. But don't expect any quick success.
The United States is unique as a superpower in its ability to even consider non-violent means of resolving conflict, primarily because it has the ability to exercise extreme violence if all else fails. States like Liechtenstein have no recourse but to concede against force, being too small to oppose even slightly larger states. For a range of nation states, against a similar-sized opponent, non-violent solutions are possible, but violent means of defense remain as a requirement if other solutions are to remain credible.
Peaceful conflict resolution is only possible if both parties are willing to consider non-violent solutions.
Separate out those irrational individuals whose epistemology is that of a win/lose nature where the individual causes loss and conflict between others to gain.
Mind your own business and make education and entlightenment tantamount and ubiquitous.
Cull out the lazy and those prone to following the herd.
Reward achievement. Punish those who are destructive. Don't confuse the two.
The word cull might have been too strong for you.
You could kick them out and they would starve trying to fend for themselves.
That's about as close to force as I can get.
It is a good skill to bring to the Gulch.
The elites operating under color of nation states on the other hand are by their very nature violent and aggressive. The conflicts over political or territorial power between them also tend to effect countless numbers of people who have no part in their disputes. The only way to end that kind of violent conflict is to delegitimize the concept of nation states itself.
-
It ISN'T legitimate to create enemies and conflicts so that you can justify the establishment of a one-world government.
But instead what we see is Men forming GOVERNments of Force to negate their very own Right to Life. How "rational" is that?
http://no-ruler.net/11397/going-voluntar...
If all men were 100% logical and abstained from seeking power, you could see a world without significant cultural issues, governmental differences, or even differences of religions. Since that has never existed from the dawn of man and doesn't look to get any better as the human population increases, I can only logically deduce that unless there is some massive and incontrovertible external force to change our direction, the dream of peace is so far from reality as to render it under the heading "pure speculation".
But let's try out. Those of us who wasted our time and lives supposedly protecting those sentiments only to find we had wasted the effort on those not worth the effort will be more than glad to stand back and watch the outcome.
For one thing don't call us when they come for you. Nö More Cannon Fodder!
But not to leave you clueless and solutionless you could try doing your job as responsible citizens before you start yammering about rights. Just a thought before you vote for the next warlord.
So how do thee dub thyself?
Here's one thought. It's said you need someone who knows how to push the buttons? Whose buttons? Why? if it's that difficult just make a change. Why not? Money. They don't deserve propina. They aren't worth the mordida. If you had one fourth or one third sitting in the Capitol Building saying screw you I'm not voting until I've read this thing.
But? Too many afraid of the economic backlash of a government on the take.
As for Gucci Gulch? Don't give them an appointment.
The real problem is decent people don't become politicians. So all the dregs gravitate to their lowest common denominator.
1) all government limited ONLY to protecting legitimate rights.
2) all initiation of force in all forms strictly forbidden
3) perfect surveillance nipping any and all initiation of force, even by government, in the bud.
(3) is for better or worse almost inevitable as technology improves in any case. It isn't very survivable without the other two.
I'm firmly convinced that our species is hard wired towards getting things and not sharing unless we see an advantage in doing so. Inherent in even Objectivism is the right of self defense of self and private property.
We can stop glamorizing and sanitizing massive use of force where there is nothing real to gain. That would help quite a bit. But more importantly we need enough people that stand up for real inalienable based in reality rights and hold their own and all governments and groups accountable only when and as they violate them.
I have no quarrel with a complete idiot or even an extremely evil person as long as they have no ability to initiate force against me. I wouldn't have anything to do with them but I am not going to lose sleep that they exist.
That's the essence or the anti-gun argument. The guns are not to problem - it's the person using it. And if you take their gun, they can use a knife or a bomb - or a rock, or a club, or any practically unlimited number of other ways to initiate force.
Throughout history there has been one way to forestall the need for use of force. Exhibit the ability and the will to make initiation too expensive.
We former and present military are the ability. too bad there is no will. So? You get what you ask for. This time it was 12 years of non stop warfare. Now we pause for some legacy building for the current wartime President and await our orders for the next go round.No need to initiate anything. That's the job of the elected officials and the citizens whose responsibility it is to select them.
We don't enjoy the privilege of saying no except at the ballot box where we are vastly outnumbered.
No ability - no will - it's human nature in the genes in the DNA in the culture just are video and computer games featuring lots of blood.
What purpose do we serve? That's not our choice but it seems providing ideas for hollywood productions tops the legitimate list.
Hey AM? how about saturday morning cartoons as a force multiplier? Gotta start the training young!
I believe Ayn Rand was is favor of the government having a strong military for this exact purpose - to deter initiation from outside sources, but internally for minimal Federal Government - other than to enforce and uphold our rational natural rights.