Private Property Rights Are Good, But Only If You Beleive Like We Do...

Posted by MaxCasey 10 years, 11 months ago to News
49 comments | Share | Flag

"If any private business said “I won’t serve a customer because of his race or sexual orientation,” would that decision be allowed by government?" (Well we know from the Colorado Baker case that the answer is a big fat no) "Would Hollywood or the media elite take the business owner’s side? Of course not. So “private property rights” are extended only to people with the same views as Hollywood?" (when speaking of Duck Dynasty's Phil Robertson and the A&E decision to suspend him).

Why is it the Left/Liberals can't seem to get the contradiction even when pointed out? Is it pride? Anyone have any other glaring examples of contradictory policy coming from the mouths of Liberals?
SOURCE URL: http://personalliberty.com/2013/12/26/duck-commander-ignites-a-revolution/


Add Comment

FORMATTING HELP

All Comments Hide marked as read Mark all as read

  • Posted by $ Stormi 10 years, 11 months ago
    The left is full of contradictions. They say we must protect eagles, yet when the green energy agenda needs a boost, they say go, put in wind turbines, and forget they may wipe out those eagles.
    They liberals say we must leave the forest floor (ripe for fires) untouched, yet say nothing when HAARP continues to heat the ionosphere and change climate in unpredictable ways (and at what cost to taxpayers). The left tells us we must save energy and the environment with Mercury filled bulbs, but fail to mention they emit several other gases, are bad for humans and will cost a fortune to recycle as soon as everyone is stuck with using them. They did not even view the German study warning of the health dangers.
    Liberals pushed for easy mortgages, even when it led to financial disaster, yet at the same time support UN Agenda 21, which would do away with private property rights and the right to own a home, when fully implemented.
    Actors push for "green" homes for New Orleans residents, but then live in big mansions and use jet fuel for no other reason that to fly in special caviar for their enjoyment - not exactly green.
    The Prez and politicians are protected by armies of armed guards, yet would legislate away the right of citizens to own guns to protect themselves.
    The D.C. crowd carry on about first global warming, which fizzled and became "climate change", yet the Prez uses HAMP to change conditions (ask Christie about that one) and Pelosi had no problem filling the skies with pollution when she took two jets to Calif. when she was Speaker. Do as we say, not as we do.
    The D.C. bunch tell us to drive fuel efficient cars, while they take limos.
    Actually, the list is endless, and it shows that the left is both stupid and underestimates the intelligence of others.
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
  • Posted by GFasolt 10 years, 11 months ago
    First it must be recognized that rights are a matter of objective reality and can thus be understood and discussed rationally. Human rights are a fact of man's existence. Another man or government can attempt to deny a man's rights, but they do not cease to exist, they are only violated or suppressed.

    A business is owned by men and men have the right to to think and to act - to make choices. This includes the right to discriminate against others. To deny this suggests that it is acceptable to force one man to serve another. Not only does this deny his right to think and act, it enslaves him and sacrifices his life to another.

    Because legitimate government derives its power from men, government cannot do anything men cannot do, including initiating the use of force (or threat thereof) to prevent an individual from thinking and choosing as he sees fit. When government becomes illegitimate such as when it denies men their human rights, men have the moral right and obligation to change the government. Men also have an obligation to act morally regardless of the law, but must weigh the potential consequences of defiance in making such choices.
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
  • Posted by livefree-NH 10 years, 10 months ago
    Any time when they say something like "we deserve it", such as acceding to the demands of blacks wanting reparations, or even justifying the actions of the 9/11 hijackers.
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
    • Comment hidden by post owner or admin, or due to low comment or member score. View Comment
    • -1
      Posted by Boborobdos 10 years, 10 months ago
      Blacks have not gotten reparations and nobody has justified the actions of the Syrians who perpetrated 911.

      Where do you get such stuff from?
      Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
  • Posted by guidvce 10 years, 10 months ago
    In answer to your second to last question in your post, "Max", its cuz it goes contrary to what they want to accomplish, complete power and control over every facet of every life in this country. Its all about power and control. Has nothing to do with following the Constitution nor what the citizens want or need, which the citizens are best at deciding on their own.
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
    • Comment hidden by post owner or admin, or due to low comment or member score. View Comment
    • -1
      Posted by Boborobdos 10 years, 10 months ago
      Power and control with anti-abortion efforts.

      Power and control with end of life issues.

      Power and control with recreational drug issues...

      Power and control with health insurance by corporations rather than individuals being able to decide.

      What about control by the individual?
      Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
  • Comment hidden by post owner or admin, or due to low comment or member score. View Comment
  • -5
    Posted by $ Maphesdus 10 years, 11 months ago
    Property rights do not exempt an individual from having to obey laws and regulations.

    A peaceful society cannot exist without laws and regulations to govern the behavior of its citizens, not even on an individual's private property.
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
    • 12
      Posted by Zenphamy 10 years, 11 months ago
      I would much rather live in a raucous, free society than a peaceful, slave society.

      No one, no group, no government, no special interest LGBT owns me, my mind, my business, or my voice.
      Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
      • Comment hidden by post owner or admin, or due to low comment or member score. View Comment
      • -2
        Posted by $ Maphesdus 10 years, 11 months ago
        Ah, but how free really is a society with no laws? Not as free as you seem to think, my friend, for without laws there would be no means of protecting your own rights or your own property, except of course your own violent and forceful action against any gang or criminal who sought to take your property or your life. Laws are not the antithesis of freedom, but rather the shield by which freedoms are protected and preserved, for they give a man a legal and non-violent method of seeking justice against those who have wronged him. ;)
        Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
        • Posted by Zenphamy 10 years, 11 months ago
          >>"for without laws there would be no means of protecting your own rights or your own property, except of course your own violent and forceful action against any gang or criminal who sought to take your property or your life"<<

          Does 'any gang or criminal' include the government? Do your laws give me a legal and non-violent method of seeking justice from the bureaucracy that permeates every pore of our society when they wrong me? Does a law that's 2600 pages long, that no single person can understand, protect me?

          You seem to desire abdicating any responsibility for yourself, relying on a law to take care of you. That, my friend, is the epitome of slavery. Living in safety at the whim of your rulers.
          Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
          • Posted by $ WillH 10 years, 11 months ago
            I am pretty sure he was referring to a properly restrained federal government in accordance with the Constitution of the United States. You know, one that provides for the national defense, the court system and the police, and nothing more? Our government’s function is to secure the rights of people from those who would take those rights away. This challenge is to be met by military force when the threat is foreign countries and by the court system when the threat is from an individual who does not value freedom or the virtue of the contract. Yes, liberalism and corruption has rotted the core out of the government, but that does not make anarchy the answer.

            Total anarchy sounds fine to a lot of people that have lived their lives shielded from the things that go on in the rest of the world. Make no mistake; if our government completely collapsed tomorrow we would be dealing with invasion from every corner of the globe. You would not have to worry about criminals and roving gangs in that situation. The Chinese, Russians, Koreans, Mexicans, etc. would be the issue then… and standing on a hill dual wielding your AR’s would make no difference at all.
            Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
            • Posted by khalling 10 years, 11 months ago
              Will, I don 't think Zen was advocating anarchy. There is no need for the govt to legislate men 's thoughts and actions regarding a group 's perceived offense. Force does not include withholding your labor when you choose. Your "ARs on a hill " remark is a strawman. Until TSHTF the best offense is to work on winning the intellectual battle. It only often takes the tenacity of small but vocal minority to change the status quo

              Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
            • Posted by Zenphamy 10 years, 11 months ago
              I agree that total anarchy is not a practical or workable solution to societies as they are today. And I don't advocate such. I really think arguments against anarchy are straw-men used to argue against a return to the principles of the Constitution. I am firmly convinced that the Constitution imagined by the Founders is the ideal, though again it hasn't turned out to be practical either.

              Our democratic system as practiced in this country is too fallible when faced with career politicians and the numbers of uneducated (some might say not educable) populace swayed by popularity, good looks, and bull-sh$t. Expanding the vote to those with no 'skin in the game' (welfare, non-working, non-property owners, etc) and limiting the numbers of Representatives (therefor decreasing the accountability of each to constituents) has transformed our Republican form of governance.

              Personally, I also favor the strangely lost original 13th amendment favored by Thomas Jefferson.

              We lost the only true method of federal restraint when we gave up state's rights during the Civil War and later when T. Roosevelt and then Wilson manipulated us into foreign wars and international entanglements. As well might be mentioned Andrew Jackson's extremes of Executive Power and refusal to follow the directions of the Supreme Court..

              As for standing on a hill wielding an AR (I prefer the M14), remember that only 3% of the population of the Colonies beat the largest, most proficient military in the world. There was a German General invited to observe some Civil War actions, particularly Gettysburg that wrote back to his council and government after that battle that advised in the strongest words that his country should 'never try to fight these people.' I don't advocate war either, been there - done that. But as for trying to invade this country, the Northeast and California would fall pretty quick. The rest of the country outside the major urban centers, I wouldn't bet on. -
              Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
              • Posted by $ stargeezer 10 years, 11 months ago
                I'd have trouble deciding between a AR and a M14. It would depend on target, terrain and if I were humping it all day over field and mountain or is it riding in my truck. Long or short range, bush or Forrest.
                Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
                • Comment hidden by post owner or admin, or due to low comment or member score. View Comment
                • Posted by Hiraghm 10 years, 11 months ago
                  I dunno. I have trouble with the AR's small round. I was surfing earlier looking for a pistol or ammunition that would transfer the energy to my target and then stop, and not penetrate walls. The one that came up as not penetrating walls was the .223 fired by the AR.

                  Also saw a video review of the Saiga 223. Fairly cheap... but I'd probably go with the Saiga 12 if I had a choice and could afford either. My eyesight isn't what it used to be, and 100 yards would be extreme as far as my ability to be accurate, I think; at least without a scope, so I'd probably be better off with a 12 gauge and fighting at short range. I could be wrong, however; I'm far from an expert on the subject.
                  Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
                  • Posted by $ stargeezer 10 years, 10 months ago
                    The Saiga 12 is a pretty nice shotgun, although it's pretty pricey around here due to shortages. I've got one that's pretty dressed up and it's had the trigger pack relocated back to the original place. The other one I've got is all stock. The way charter arms imported them.

                    I prefer the AK47 location for fast action. If you are handy with tools and have a Tig welder you can buy a $40 kit and do the conversion yourself or a gunsmith will charge around $250-$300 for the job.

                    Either way, they are great fun and a super good weapon for close in work.
                    Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
              • Posted by Animal 10 years, 11 months ago
                Have you a name for this German general? I'm a pretty big Civil War buff and I don't recall that incident.
                Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
                • Posted by Zenphamy 10 years, 10 months ago
                  Animal; Haven't found the author yet, still searching. Might not have even been German, but here's the quote. I like it so I hope it holds up.

                  "The author was a member of a group of foreign officers that had witnessed the bloody fighting at Gettysburg. Upon writing home one officer warned his government:
                  “We must never fight these American’s for they fight without any regard to pain or
                  death. Honor and victory are their only battle cries. I have seen whole regiments laid to waste only to see men from both sides readily step up to the battle line. An
                  outside invader could never stand against such madmen.”"
                  Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
                  • Posted by Animal 10 years, 10 months ago
                    Interesting. I'll do some digging too - the Old Man could probably teach an intermediate-level college history course on the Civil War, maybe he knows something.

                    If I find anything I'll post it here.
                    Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
            • Comment hidden by post owner or admin, or due to low comment or member score. View Comment
            • Posted by $ Maphesdus 10 years, 11 months ago
              Indeed I was. I've said before that I believe the limitations of the Constitution and the separation of powers are perhaps some of the best governmental limitations ever devised, yet for some reason people seem to want me to reiterate this point in every post I make, lest I be accused of advocating totalitarianism. It can be extremely tiring.
              Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
              • Comment hidden by post owner or admin, or due to low comment or member score. View Comment
              • Posted by Hiraghm 10 years, 11 months ago
                That's because you think it's okay for the government to force me to do business with and associate with people I don't like for reasons that are entirely up to me to choose.

                ("me" and "I' in this context is the generic "one").
                Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
        • Posted by Temlakos 10 years, 11 months ago
          Who said anything about total anarchy? That's the trouble with left-liberals. They insist anything less than the kind of intrusive government they plump for, is tantamount to anarchy. And they fail to distinguish between police/military/law courts, all institutions that manage force, from other goods and services.
          Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
    • Posted by 10 years, 11 months ago
      A law that denies a man his property, or life so that another man may benefit is not a moral law and should not be obeyed. Ayn Rand was adamant that Altruism be understood as evil and that man be a means in himself so that no man should be forced to exist for another man's sake. Maphesdus seems to miss this point in other threads I've posted as well when he thinks that the government or "groups" can legislate that someone must work for another man (even if compensated) against their will, and yet never speaks to the contradiction that one business owner has no right to determine how his business works, yet another business does in this context.

      A law's proper application is to outline the consequence of a violation of individual rights, not to "govern the behavior of its citizens". If we accept your premise then we accept that the citizens behavior needs to be governed by a third party without limitations, or only with the limitations imposed by a majority vote. You can't say behavior needs to be governed without specifying the standard by which it is to be governed and how that standard is determined. This is the root of the argument/posts I've been making, which you fail to address. By what authority does a baker have to serve a gay couple when another business is able to deny employment for the very same beliefs? Why does one get to choose but the other doesn't? Its because the "group" has decided that when its concerning the interests of "this" particular group, an individual has no right to hold an opinion or belief and he should be "punished" if he does. By what right does the group get to deny this man his right to have a belief system? Who determined what belief systems were allowable? This flawed logic is the basis of moral relativism and all statism. The ends justify the means according to this thought process. The baker is wrong in his opinions, and Christianity is flawed therefore people shouldn't stick to those ideas and beliefs, its ok if we trample on their rights because in the end the fewer mystics we have the better we will all be. I reject this premise outright because its a flawed contradictory premise and the longer you promote it on an Objectivist board, the dumber you look.
      Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
      • Comment hidden by post owner or admin, or due to low comment or member score. View Comment
      • -1
        Posted by $ Maphesdus 10 years, 11 months ago
        You present a false dichotomy in your argument by saying that outlining consequences and governing behavior are different things. They are not. They are the same thing stated differently. If you create a law which says that people may not violate the individual rights of others, then you are governing the behavior of your citizens. Telling people they may not do something, whatever that thing is, is governing their behavior. Even telling people that they may not commit murder, and that there is a punishment for those who do, is an act of governing their behavior. The word "government" inherently implies this because it contains the word "govern."

        Business owners have a right to determine how their businesses are run, certainly, but only within certain legal limitations. A total absence of any laws or regulations is a form of anarchy.

        This is why I've said before that Objectivism is a derivative of anarchy, which exposes one of the greatest logical contradictions of Objectivism (of which there are actually quite a lot). Even though Ayn Rand said government was necessary, she still said laws and regulations were not, and therefore her philosophy is anarchistic in its essential functions. After all, what practical purpose does a government serve if not to enforce laws? Without laws, a government has no means or method by which it can determine if one man has truly violated the rights of another.

        A government without laws is like a sword without a blade; it can no longer perform its essential function, and therefore becomes as useless towards that end as if it did not exist at all.

        Of course it's obvious that having too many laws and regulations, or laws and regulations which are counter-productive and harmful is very bad, and can even be destructive. Yet at the same time, having no laws or regulations strips men of their ability to legally and peacefully defend themselves. But then this hits on the fundamental paradox of government, which is the question of whether it's possible to establish a government to protect man's rights without at the same time trampling on those rights.

        So what then is the solution? Personally, I think Aristotle gave us the solution when he said that the ideal lies at the median between two extremes. That is, we should have neither too many nor too few laws, and the laws we do have should have an empirical and scientific foundation as their basis.
        Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
        • Posted by 10 years, 11 months ago
          to apply a governor to action is to limit the action, in the same way that one may attempt to coerce behavior with laws. There is an important distinction here that is being missed. Notice the "proper role" of a law is to describe the consequence of a violation of an individuals rights versus "govern the behavior", or limit the behavior of men. This really isn't a false dichotomy, and I can see where you think its anarchistic, however that isn't actually the case.
          In once sense we are making no limits on a man's actions. He is free to do as he chooses, but not avoid the consequences. In the other instance, we are trying to "govern" his behavior. He is not free to choose as he wishes and he may be free to avoid the consequences of his actions. Case in point. A 60 watt incandescent light bulb as of 2014 is an endangered species in the US. The goal there is to "govern" behavior by passing a law restricting the production or sale (I'm honestly not sure how they did what they did), and push folks into the "green" agenda, under the guise that its "for their own good" with the assumption that they are too stupid to know what's good for themselves." Forcing me to wear a seat belt is another one that governs behavior, or seeks to put limits on my behavior. Making laws that force me to work for people I'm ideologically opposed to is a way to "govern" my behavior. The reality in those situations is that not a one of them has any demonstrable violation of any individuals rights. The collectivist will argue that "global warming" necessitates that we use Compact Florescent lighting over incandescent because they are more energy efficient and global warming is killing the planet or pollution etc, but lets be honest, this is not "scientific" in foundation as you put it (we can argue on another thread about global warming if you like). Me not wearing a seat belt doesn't violate anyone else's rights And refusing to do work for anyone for any reason doesn't violate their rights either because they don't have a right to the product of my labor. But each of those laws is seeking to govern my behavior, just like passing a law that says I have to buy health insurance is trying to "govern" my behavior but who's rights am I violating if I don't buy health insurance? When we talk about laws that describe punishment for a violation of rights, such as murder, rape or arson, certainly some people may not do those things because they are afraid of the consequences, and you could say that those laws seek to "govern" those specific behaviors and you would be right, but what is the fundamental difference between Obamacare and Capital Murder? What is the difference between not wearing a seat belt and rape? What is the difference between limiting my choice of light bulbs and burning down a man's house? The fundamental difference is that in each of the later cases, there is a specific victim that was harmed. So yes, while all laws with a punishment have the potential to curb a man's actions due to consequences, not all laws are written to "govern" his behavior.
          Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
          • Comment hidden by post owner or admin, or due to low comment or member score. View Comment
          • Posted by Hiraghm 10 years, 11 months ago
            My favorite example of governing behavior rather than punishing violation is the texting while driving laws. They don't punish you for plowing into somebody or not being in control of your vehicle, they punish you for another activity, which has the possibility that maybe you might plow into somebody. And not all such activities, just one, specific, demonized activity.
            Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
            • Posted by livefree-NH 10 years, 10 months ago
              This is exactly the same principle as most gun laws. When I drive by someone who is texting and driving, it reminds me of watching someone who is playing at the gun range shooting tin cans off his kid's head. Society deals with these two situations in different ways, it seems.

              Oh yeah, here in NH it is illegal to text while driving, unless you are a cop. Tell me what message that sends!
              Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
            • Posted by plusaf 10 years, 11 months ago
              and I've thought for a long time that the "incentive" and repercussions aspect would work much better than any "government mandate or restrictions:"

              Just let the insurance companies add a clause or two that says that if you're texting while driving or are not wearing your seatbelt in an accident, some or all of your insurance coverage is forfeit.

              Works for me... I love my seat belts!
              Oh, and btw, do you know why it's as important that your back-seat passengers wear theirs? Y'see, if you're driving and hit something hard, your seat belt and air bags may save your life, but if the passenger sitting BEHIND you (or behind the future victim next to you up front) is NOT wearing their seat belt, they will smash into the BACK of your seat and essentially crush your chest with YOUR seatbelt. Low survivability.
              Think about it.
              Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
    • Posted by Lucky 10 years, 11 months ago
      I may disagree with the intent. of the point made by Map but it has some merit as an argument and should not have been voted down. He may be making the Socrates assertion that if you accept laws you must take the good with the bad. But here, that is not the contention.
      Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  

FORMATTING HELP

  • Comment hidden. Undo