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Who is it that is expecting a free ride?

Posted by kevinw 9 years, 7 months ago to Politics
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In a recent discussion about patriotism on a post by Abaco here; http://www.galtsgulchonline.com/posts/2e... khalling linked to this Atlas Society video of Alexander Cohen making the case for patriotism as a virtue that Objectivists could embrace; http://www.atlassociety.org/as/john-galt...

That conversation tended to revolve around the vague definition and how people would apply it (or not) to their lives and Mr. Cohen expressed a definition of patriotism that I would much rather have as the standard. But what caught my attention in the video was Cohen's point that people who enjoy the advantages of the system we were left with by the founding fathers but are not willing to put forth the effort to protect it or improve it are, essentially, expecting a free ride. I personally know several people who are completely willing to pick up a gun and fight but will not lift a finger, nor spare a moment's thought on how to stop it before it comes to that. Not even vote. I would say that they don't even truly understand what it is that they would be laying down their lives for.

We've all heard (possibly even said) the phrase "if you don't vote, you can't complain". Now I'm wondering, is voting even enough? Obviously any idiot can vote.


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    Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 7 months ago
    My willingness to protect and improve the US is proportional to its willingness to stand up to its ideals. Right now the Divided Tyranny of AmeЯika is not worth supporting. I have voted third party for president ever since I was able to vote for president in 1985.

    The vote has lost its meaning since voting was permitted by those who do not own property. Now moochers routinely vote for moochers to more than cancel my vote. Democracy is an evil that America's founders warned against.
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    • Posted by 9 years, 7 months ago
      Aren't you a teacher? College or ??? By incorporating Objectivism into your classroom in any small way you are probably doing more to support the ideals of America and the American sense of life than most people. If it is going to be saved it will be through education about Objectivism. Were you a "student of Objectivism" in 1985?
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      • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 7 months ago
        Yes, I am a professor at a non-tenure-granting, private university called Florida Tech. This is the first year that I can say that I intentionally incorporated AR into the classroom, although I have espoused many of her values my entire life. For example, when confronted with a cheating scandal this semester, I wrote (with acknowledgment), "No one gets to this place by faking reality in any way whatsoever."

        I have sold two companies I co-founded as a "partial shrug", but I will readily admit that my professorship position is as optimal a shrug job as I could ever hope for.
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        • Posted by 9 years, 7 months ago
          What an incredible opportunity to spark some interest among young minds. I wonder what percentage of them understand what an evil democracy really is.

          Many minds must be reached.
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          • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 7 months ago
            Do I need to reach their minds with Objectivism, or do they need to come to the conclusions of Objectivism on their own? This is the debate I have been having with myself recently.
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            • Posted by khalling 9 years, 7 months ago
              Part of gaining knowledge in any system is exposure to its conclusions. The trouble is you have to learn how the system works, the foundations on which conclusions derive in order to accept or reject those conclusions. Most people don 't want to work at that and the minute they face contradictions they reject or they find elaborate workarounds to incorporate their own beliefs. I think exposure is enough. Serious students will begin to ask questions.
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              • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 7 months ago
                And indeed some of them have begun to ask questions, and several have gone to Galt's Gulch Online.
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                • Posted by Wonky 9 years, 7 months ago
                  I wonder if our paths crossed. My wife and I attended FIT from 92-96. Given that our degree programs were Molecular Biology, Genetic Engineering, and Mechanical Engineering, I think we were lucky to have mostly "hard science" courses. Still, I would like to have discovered Ayn Rand in college. Maybe via a secret society of Galters that met somewhere in the "jungle". If FIT is still what I remember, I can imagine quite a few students are worth reaching out to and would very much appreciate it in the long run.
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                  • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 7 months ago
                    Sorry, Wonky. I didn't join FIT until 1998. It is far more advanced now than when you were here. We now have a biomedical engineering department for which I have a 20% appointment. You undoubtedly took Materials from my predecessor, Pat Mangonon. You will be welcomed back if you decide to return to a university worthy of Galt, D'Anconia, and Danneskjold. FIT made it into the top 200 in the world the last two years. PM me if you are planning on a return visit.
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              • Posted by Maritimus 9 years, 7 months ago
                Hello, K,

                I think that Objectivism can be introduced by teaching, just like any other body of knowledge. Of course, there has to be some interest in the "student". The interest can be ignited with a well done initial "lecture" of the course. When a question comes up to which the "teacher" does not have an answer, it crucial that the answer be: "I don't know! Let's look it up together.", rather than an evasive half truth. You cannot teach honesty in a dishonest manner. You cannot teach Objectivism without your "body language" serving as a "visual aid".

                The reason these thoughts occurred to me was a reaction to your " ... exposure is enough." I think that in the current culture and climate almost any "candidate student" is very much more likely to have received at least few very negative and derogatory "introductory exposures". (What's with the quotation marks today? I seem to overuse them incessantly!)

                Does anyone know if there was ever at any University a course on Objectivism? I would like to see the curriculum.

                As another comment, regarding some other comments below, I do not have much hope that someone stumbling on our Gulch will get excited to learn Objectivism. There is way too much superficial fluff and straying off subjects here to entice a "student". Please, do not take offense. This is a "club" of people who have degrees of knowledge about Objectivism and a myriad of other interests and, occasionally, other agendae. An exclusive and strict focus on Objectivism would quickly become burdensome.

                Despite those objections to qualifiers, these are just my off-the-cuff opinions.

                All the best, K!
                Sincerely,
                Maritimus
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                • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 7 months ago
                  Leonard Peikoff teaches a twelve lecture course on Objectivism. Nathaniel Branden (recently deceased) used to teach one, too.

                  http://www.peikoff.com/courses_and_lectu...

                  http://www.peikoff.com/courses_and_lectu...

                  http://reason.com/blog/2010/03/15/nathan...
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                  • Posted by Maritimus 9 years, 7 months ago
                    Hello, J,

                    Thank you so much for these!
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                    • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 7 months ago
                      I was thinking about enrolling myself. Also look at
                      http://atlassociety.org/objectivism/atla...

                      If you go to the Atlas Summit, there are quite a few courses on Objectivism there, but I could not find anything at all on the science/engineering side. With as much science and engineering as went into the main characters in Atlas Shrugged, there ought to be more science and engineering at an Atlas Society conference.
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                      • Posted by Maritimus 9 years, 7 months ago
                        Hello, J,

                        Thank you again.

                        I have not thought much about the connection between science and Objectivism. It seams to me, at a first glance, that science is so deeply an exercise of reason and of cognitive ability, that it seems self-evident that there should be no conflicts or contradictions.

                        On the other hand, I am deeply convinced that engineering is not a science and that it is "the art of things that work". To me this means that it is an artful application of scientific knowledge to invent and create products for a purpose which the engineer deems worth while. I remember not so long ago wondering whether I should re-study the "Romantic Manifesto" having engineering art in mind all the time and see where that lands me. I have not done it yet, but I think I will as soon as time allows.

                        What do you think?

                        Thanks again.

                        All the best.
                        Sincerely,
                        Maritimus
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                        • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 7 months ago
                          Science has gotten a bad name recently from a set of pretenders, mostly in the climate change area.

                          Engineers have to deal with constraints, and with this government, they have to deal with far more constraints than they should or they used to have to deal with.
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                          • Posted by Maritimus 9 years, 7 months ago
                            Oh, don't get me going on global warming. The climate change is just their code for global warming. Completely in accord with so many instances of obfuscation by redefining terms away from their common earlier definitions.

                            They had to fabricate and falsify to "prove" their theses. I am a proud 'denier", despised by the criminal zealots. Ever heard of scientific "consensus"? The theories are proven, not by vote, to be true or false by independent researchers conducting their own experiments to prove or disprove, all data and methods published for anybody to analyze. These people have permanently damaged the reputation of science and scientist. Assisted by ignoramuses in the media and in the government, who have each their own hidden agendae.

                            I apologize for the outburst. This subject cuts deep into my nerves.
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                • Posted by khalling 9 years, 7 months ago
                  hello Martimus. I am happy to disagree on this subject. Since this is an introductory site, as it were, the idea is to cull the students and answer questions which are basic and send them to Rand's books, both fiction and non-fiction and to hear some interesting lectures. Hopefully check out sites where they can gain more knowledge of Objectivism and study. I personally know several members of this site (you know them too!) who found us because of the movies. They have gone on to read and re-read Atlas Shrugged and have read several of Rand's non-fiction books. Before they came here, they had never heard of Objectivism. I think you will see some changes to the site over some time that will address your concerns about the "fluff." Getting to talk with scholars from the Atlas Society for one.
                  Have a great week, Martimus
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                  • Posted by Maritimus 9 years, 7 months ago
                    Hello. K,

                    I do not see much to disagree here. It seems to me that you have in mind primarily the people who already somehow developed an interest to explore Objectivism.

                    I think that I had in mind mostly the "tabula rasa" kind (like my grandchildren) or people who need to be turned around from a misguided view about Objectivism received somewhere along the way.

                    Where would be fun if we never ever disagreed?

                    I will obey your order more than you know. ;-)

                    Stay well!
                    Maritimus
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                    • Posted by khalling 9 years, 7 months ago
                      Db and I target certain high schools and donate copies of Atlas Shrugged. As a matter of fact, we have a couple of high school teachers in the Gulch who may appreciate and benefit from such an investment. ISank, I believe teaches Economics in Hawaii. If you have any advice on reaching out more to the tabula rasa individual, I'm all for it. We have the world to win :)
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            • Posted by 9 years, 7 months ago
              Yeah, tough call. How to put it out there so it can be absorbed without "preaching". Different minds will react differently, from total rejection to eager engagement. I'm no teacher, that's for sure. And unless it's a philosophy class learning Objectivism is not what they are in your room for, so some way to put it out there in a positive light or show the benefits of its application. It would have to be a choice made on their own but knowing they do have that choice is a big advantage.
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            • Posted by cjferraris 9 years, 7 months ago
              I think now more than ever, young minds need to learn about "real life". They have been awash in the "everybody participates" and "there is no failure if you try your best" culture. They need to learn from someone that if you harness your abilities and take charge of your life, you can accomplish great things and not have to utter the words "Would you like fries with your order?" when they're in their 30s.
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              • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 7 months ago
                I worked in industry for a while, as did most FIT faculty. Since being at FIT, I have co-started and sold two startup businesses. The second business really had a lot of promise, but Obama made sure that my business would be penalized so that he could favor his solar energy companies. The ten of us all decided to shrug together.
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                • Posted by cjferraris 9 years, 7 months ago
                  Oh, I know.. I think that the Misery Index under Obama is MUCH worse than it ever was under Carter..
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                  • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 7 months ago
                    How does one calculate the misery index now? The inflation rate is reportedly almost zero, but it cannot be so given that we are printing $1 trillion each year.

                    The unemployment rate is also nebulous now as well. Obama has succeeded in confusing so many people regarding A = A that even people like us have a hard time quantifying just how bad the situation really is.
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                    • Posted by cjferraris 9 years, 7 months ago
                      It's just another example of the POTUS kicking the can down the road.. He's going to leave it for the next inhabitant of the White House and the lack of memory will cause all of the people in love with this president to be in denial about how long he drug out this recovery.. With any other President I can remember, you would usually have about 4 years of "good times" with about a 18 month "recession" thrown in just to tighten the belts after the recovery. Not a 6 year recession followed by an alleged 2 year "recovery".
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            • Posted by RonC 9 years, 7 months ago
              This is like the discovery of Jesus. Which is the more powerful experience; that of the youngster raised in the church that has always been a "believer", or the middle aged rascal that has smoked and drank and chased and cheated...then suddenly finds Jesus (or some would say Jesus found him). I think Objectivism is a similar experience.

              One can study and be taught all of the "nooks and crannies" of the philosophy and even pass an examination on the facts of the matter. Or, another can take it to heart and live it as a way of life. In my estimation when someone decides to do a thing it is profoundly different that learning about something.
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      • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 7 months ago
        I really wasn't a student of Objectivism until 2008. I had agreed with many of its conclusions, primarily the economic ones, but not all of its conclusions and certainly not all of its premises. I continue to learn, as do we all.
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  • Posted by $ blarman 9 years, 7 months ago
    The first responsibility we have is to educate ourselves. Read the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence and actually study what they mean. Then you'll be prepared to look at all of the systematic divergences from that intent.

    The second responsibility is to help educate others. Being on this forum is a great start, but don't be afraid to call in to radio programs, write letters to elected representatives, write editorials to newspapers, and post to social media sites.

    Third, VOTE! Talk is cheap - vote with your feet! No, the choices aren't all perfect, but realize that on average only 1 in 3 Americans votes - especially in local elections. Your vote is actually worth at least TWO and frequently THREE votes. Don't let someone else vote for you.
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    • Posted by johnpe1 9 years, 7 months ago
      and vote with your bucks! . this could include going
      by Chick-Fil-A instead of Starbucks. -- j

      p.s. buying American has wrinkles -- do a little
      homework and buy a Jetta made in Chattanooga?
      .
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    • Posted by 9 years, 7 months ago
      All this is true.

      So what would your thoughts be on someone who, by shear natural ability, produces enough wealth that even with the system working to destroy or enslave him he is able to live comfortably and do his own thing and ignore that system. Is he getting a free ride?
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  • Posted by khalling 9 years, 7 months ago
    As in Objectivism, people like to refer to themselves as patriots without doing the work required. It starts by thinking through some foundational principles : what are rights? Where do they come from? There is no shortcut thinking here. If more "patriots " would simply do the mental work here, they would better understand the Constitution, thereby the importance of its preservation and the shocking violation of rights our govt is committing against its citizens.
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    • Posted by 9 years, 7 months ago
      My quest to find and learn Objectivism began with the question "if there is no god, where would morality come from?" I had heard Hannity or Rush or someone make their standard statement that there could be no morality without god and I just couldn't fall for it any longer. I had to ask myself that question out loud, several times before it finally sank in that I really needed to find out.

      I don't know how to spark that curiosity in others. How to get them to realize the importance of doing that "mental work".
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  • Posted by johnpe1 9 years, 7 months ago
    if you don't produce more value than you consume,
    you are getting some portion of a free ride. -- j
    .
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    • Posted by 9 years, 7 months ago
      Absolutely true, but isn't it more than that? I know many people that produce a great deal and have so much more to lose than the average joe but they make no effort to understand the system that allows them to produce so much. Some complain about the system and some don't but their natural ability to produce allows them to completely ignore the failing system that they gain so much from. They pay their taxes into a system that would have them destroyed or, at least enslaved, and yet they are able to basically ignore all that and "do their own thing". It seems counter-intuitive but aren't they getting a "free ride" as well?
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      • Posted by johnpe1 9 years, 7 months ago
        I would contend that they are *giving* the free ride.
        and they are non-Galt thinkers -- they don't mind
        being slave-like performers for the "riders" on their
        backs. . maybe they don't notice the riders.

        if they're getting a free ride, it's like the time when
        the horse gets a "free ride" to the barn -- they
        want to go that way, and don't mind being ridden,
        on the way. -- j
        .
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        • Posted by 9 years, 7 months ago
          So put those guys in, say, communist Russia. If it is early on they become the bourgeois, enemy of the people, head on the chopping block. Later in the process, they might hide their ability to not get singled out or they might be part of the "party" waiting for the next purge. Or, more likely, they work in the black market. Their lives on the line daily just for doing what they do. Capitalism is the only system in existence that lets them profit from their ability and they ignore it. Or maybe just avoid thinking about it.
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          • Posted by johnpe1 9 years, 7 months ago
            and if we really had a capitalistic system, and if the
            government would stay out of the way, in comparison
            with Russia they would be able to "do their thing,"
            these producers, freely. . in that sense, a "free" ride!
            but the others -- the Eddie Willerses -- who would
            be granted extraordinary livelihoods working for the
            producers, would get a partial "free ride" on their
            coattails. . and the poor would be rich enough to
            donate to the international poor. -- j
            .
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            • Posted by 9 years, 7 months ago
              Are these people not getting a free ride on your back and my back and the backs of people who have taken the time to learn what the cause of freedom is and put forth some effort to protect and/or bring about (bring back) a system that protects the rights of individuals?
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              • Posted by johnpe1 9 years, 7 months ago
                that's it -- we dig and produce and sustain freedom
                to the best of our ability, carrying millions of others
                along with us. . and people like BHO think that the
                productive power of the nation can be milked of its
                profits "to no end." . Rand predicted that they would
                have to be taught a lesson. . she is being proved
                right, I believe. -- j
                .
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  • Posted by $ jlc 9 years, 7 months ago
    I took Heinlein to heart. I have always thought it...well...crappy...that men paid for their right to vote by being able to be drafted but that women had the right to vote as a gift from the men. I do not agree with the draft, but I do think that if we institute a draft it should be across the board, with alternative service for conscientious objectors.

    This was something that was in my mind when I enlisted in the USAF. (The other thing that was in my mind was 'getting a job'.)

    So when someone questions my right to have a political opinion (this does not happen often), I have innocently asked, "Oh. What branch of the military were YOU in?" (I think I have said this twice. In neither case had the person been in the military.)

    What it comes down to is this: when I search internationally, there is still no place freer than the US. With all of its warts, it is still worth protecting.

    Jan
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    • Posted by Maritimus 9 years, 7 months ago
      What is your opinion about Switzerland in this regard?
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      • Posted by $ jlc 9 years, 7 months ago
        I have been recently doing some research on this question. The Swiss tradition of military service for all men began in the 14th century - back when Switzerland was a loose confederation of Alpine valleys. Then the Cantons discovered that efficient warfare was their only economic export, and the famed Swiss mercenaries began.

        So there is a long history of arming the Swiss populace. This tradition has been held to be the reason that Switzerland has not been invaded on several occasions...as recently as the 1950's. I would like for this tradition of an armed and trained citizenry to take root in the USA - it is legitimately part of our own heritage, which we are loosing with the passing of time.

        I would like to reclaim this tradition.

        Jan
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        • Posted by $ jdg 9 years, 7 months ago
          To be fair, their foreign policy is not the only thing that has kept the Swiss at peace. It also helps that: (1) they are a small country with no resources valuable enough to tempt someone to attack; for example, no oil and no rare minerals; (2) they are surrounded by mountains that would favor the defense in a war fought across them, no matter which side is the attacker; and (3) in the case of WW2, they made themselves useful to the Nazis by letting their leaders hide their loot in Swiss banks, and by cooperating to prevent Jews from gaining asylum there.

          Because of points (1) and (2) I'm not at all sure that adopting the Swiss foreign policy would be as successful for the US as it has been for the Swiss -- and in addition I think Americans would resist the draft even more than we did in the Viet Nam era.
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        • Posted by Maritimus 9 years, 7 months ago
          I agree with you wholeheartedly. A Swiss business acquaintance once told ne that they keep their military personal armament at home, as well as uniforms.

          Do you think that by now Switzerland is not freer than the US?
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          • Posted by $ jlc 9 years, 7 months ago
            No. One of my sisters lived there for some decades. The Swiss control things like 'what plants you are allowed to plant along the street'. Every facet of life seems to have a regulation that tells you how to do it. (The US is getting this way!)

            I loved visiting my sister, but after a while Switzerland drove me crazy. It was like trying to live in a picture postcard. I wanted WEEDS and Big Open Spaces and enough variation that I could see that people were doing what they wanted to do as opposed to what they were told to do.

            Jan
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            • Posted by Maritimus 9 years, 7 months ago
              That is interesting. I asked you because one of my high school friends emigrated to Switzerland. He was a dentist. Once, when I visited them, he told me that after they applied for citizenship, I do not know how many years after they moved there, a "committee" of their neighbors had to inspect their house and looked, among many other things, under their beds to see if they could find any of those lose cobweb-like things and dust. He understood that if they had found those things, they would have been denied the citizenship. Some "freedom".
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    • Posted by 9 years, 7 months ago
      The ability to raise an army of volunteers large enough to do the job should be a major indicator as to whether the cause is just or not. The draft is vile and inhuman. That said, the one group of people that Americans owe a debt to is our veterans. That is also the group of people we fail if we don't step up.

      Complain all you want. And thank you for your service. We'll try not to let you down.
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      • Posted by $ jlc 9 years, 7 months ago
        I agree. If no volunteer army, then why are we fighting? BUT If there were to be a draft, it should include women.

        Jan, not a second class citizen
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  • Posted by Herb7734 9 years, 7 months ago
    "Any idiot can vote." Yes, and they do. Lately, a phrase has come forth to describe them as "low information voters." You might even substitute the word NO for the word LOW. Ever since I can remember, I took my patriotism for granted. I was always proud to stand with my hand over my heart when the anthem is played, or when the flag passes or is raised. I firmly believed that this was the greatest country on the face of the earth, and its people were for the most part, the best people on earth. But now.....not so much. That doesn't mean I'm giving up, but I have to recognize that this is no longer the country of my parents (the so-called Greatest Generation) or for that matter, the country of my youth. By any standard, it has deteriorated and it will take a heluva upheaval to get it back on track.
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    • Posted by 9 years, 7 months ago
      " it will take a heluva upheaval to get it back on track."
      No less than a philosophical revolution. Glad to hear that you're not giving up. I think it is important for people to realize that this part of the battle was never won in the first place.
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  • Posted by LibertyBelle 9 years, 7 months ago
    I have read the "If you don't vote, you can't com-
    plain" argument many years ago; I think it was in
    a children's civics book by Munro Leaf. Ayn Rand
    did not endorse that argument. I read what she
    said in a collection of "off the cuff" answers to
    questions. At a tape lecture, I heard her say
    something (in fact, I don't know, but maybe the
    statement in the book was the same, made on
    the same occasion)--I think she said, "It's no
    sin not to vote"; I think she said she didn't
    blame people for not voting, with no better
    choices than the ones offered; not to vote could
    mean "none of the above"; she said she would
    not vote for anybody in the Presidential election
    of 1980. Perhaps one should do something
    prior to the nomination; campaign for some idea
    or write letters to editors about issues.
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  • Posted by $ TomB666 9 years, 7 months ago
    I live in Illinois. Usually on the ballot for national elections there are fringe parties such as Libertarians that I vote for just to let the DemReps know that some of us are not buying their BS
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  • Posted by jimslag 9 years, 7 months ago
    I am a firm believer that everyone should have skin in the game. That if you pay taxes then you can vote, if you don't, then no vote. Of course that would rely on data input from the IRS. Yes, the very same group that cannot find emails to or from an individual who no longer works for them. Or is responsible for an IT department in it's agency that cannot keep a computer up and running. I have a computer that with just a few upgrades over the years, has been running pretty much non-stop for about 8 years now. Yes, my hard drive has crashed but I did NOT lose any of my data and I am sure they employ individuals who are more computer savvy than I am. It is sad that we have an administration (not just this one), who is incompetent as the IRS is. Oh wait, there is the EPA, FCC, SEC, Education, Energy and Homeland Security to contend for that title.
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    • Posted by $ jdg 9 years, 7 months ago
      I don't like the idea of having to pay taxes to vote. But I wouldn't mind at all going back to having to own real estate to vote (a thing some states had in the past, and which is still constitutionally possible), and I would love it if anyone receiving a government check (whether it's a salary, the dole, or Social Security) had to give up their vote.
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      • Posted by jimslag 9 years, 7 months ago
        So, even though I own more than one property, since I receive a military pension, I would not be able to vote under your scope. By taxes, I pay them big time due to my job as a senior electrician and definitely pay for my military retirement plus a lot more. I probably pay enough for my mom's Social Security also. I figure if you get more back than you pay in then you don't pay, you get paid or in my parlance, you are moocher and don't deserve to vote.
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        • Posted by $ jdg 9 years, 7 months ago
          My proposal is not intended to "punish mooching" so much as to prevent blocs of voters with an obvious conflict of interest (to keep the tax money flowing to themselves) from deciding elections. It would cost me my own vote too, but it would do more to turn our country in a small-government direction than anything else I can think of.
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          • Posted by Maritimus 9 years, 7 months ago
            Don't you think that it is perfectly natural that a rational animal guided by his rational self-interest would vote for things that benefit him? Then the question turns on who decides what and how. Where do you see in our Constitution the provision for a welfare state? What kind of "common good" is the one where you confiscate from me in order to give to yourself and to those whom you like or for whom you feel sorry because of their lack of talent?

            Just asking.
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            • Posted by $ jdg 9 years, 7 months ago
              Indeed, the Constitution doesn't allow for a federal welfare state outside of DC. Nor do I prefer that a welfare state exist.

              Of course rational voters would vote themselves freebies and/or well-paying government jobs (unless they're paying attention to a long enough time frame that it doesn't pay -- and if they're near the end of their lives there may be no reason for them to look that far ahead). You can't expect people not to act selfishly -- you have to design the system to prevent that sort of abuse.
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              • Posted by Maritimus 9 years, 7 months ago
                I agree with you.

                The shortsightedness of our politics and of the vast majority of voters is painful to observe. I cannot decipher if it is partly caused by the electoral cycles, despite most politicians making it a career of it. My first guess would be that it is all rooted in the fact that sheeple do not see farther from their noses.

                The need to design the system you mention was behind my comment about who decides what and how.
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            • Posted by 9 years, 7 months ago
              Hello Maritimus,
              This is a good question, but there is a contradiction there. Is it truly in ones rational self interest to vote for things that benefit him if he has to evade the fact that those benefits must be taken from someone else? It cannot be if A=A
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        • Posted by 9 years, 7 months ago
          Since we're talking hypothetical, a properly set up military pension would be a private retirement plan between you and a firm of your choice into which you have paid your own money and you would no longer be getting a check from the government. This would eliminate the conflict of interest without eliminating the benefit of a military career.

          And Thank you for your service.
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      • Posted by $ WilliamShipley 9 years, 7 months ago
        As little as I like taxes having only those people who pay taxes be able to vote would certainly keep the taxes down -- as long as 'paying taxes' meant actually paying taxes not receiving an 'earned income credit' as many of the illegal aliens will.

        I don't think that receiving social security should count against voting, though. Rand considered it restitution for the money taken.
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        • Posted by 9 years, 7 months ago
          Hello William,
          Ayn Rand said it was moral to collect social security as restitution but only if you are against it as a policy and work to end it. It sure would be easier to phase it out if those living off of it could not vote to continue it. (never going to happen anyway)

          My new reply to those who say "I paid into it, it's my money" is "it is not your money. They spent Your money. Now they are stealing it from your grandchildren to give it to you.Did you do anything to stop that?"

          I'm all for a slow phaseout of social security, even if it means I will still pay into it and have nothing to collect. That would still be better than the total collapse that is coming.
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        • Posted by $ jdg 9 years, 7 months ago
          The "earned income credit" is actually a step in the right direction, because it reduces the size of the "cliffs" (points where increasing your earnings a little causes a sudden huge reduction in your income by making you no longer eligible for various benefits). Until we can get rid of the dole entirely, I would increase EIC if I could, making it a substitute for benefit systems that are both more complicated (and thus expensive to administer) and less fair. This is why Milton Friedman proposed the idea in the first place.

          The real underlying problem, in terms of voting, is that most voters don't understand economics and the consequences of policies like a welfare state, and what's worse, they "know" a false version of economics and aren't willing to learn better. This is the biggest success of leftist public "education."
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          • Posted by $ WilliamShipley 9 years, 7 months ago
            I agree with you on the 'earned income credit'. What I was referring to is that the current immigration describes the immigrants as 'paying taxes'.

            Filing a tax return and getting an EIC is not 'paying taxes'.
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            • Posted by $ jdg 9 years, 7 months ago
              Illegal immigrants cannot get the EIC because they don't have SSNs (and people filing a 1040 with an ITIN are not eligible).

              Obama's semi-amnesty policy would have changed that by issuing SSNs to those affected, but the courts have stopped it.
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      • Posted by 9 years, 7 months ago
        Absolutely agree. The current tax system is immoral at best and criminal is not too extreme of a description so to tie voting to that system would not be a good idea. As long as there are taxes on property (also immoral) then those who don't own property should not be able to cast a vote that could effect those tax rates. And if you receive a check from the government, or even get special tax status, how could it be right for you to be able to vote to continue or increase your own benefits that others are paying for.

        Of course a proper government would eliminate most of those restrictions, and might make someone think twice about seeking a career in politics too.
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  • Posted by wiggys 9 years, 7 months ago
    first off i did not vote for years and was always told if you don't vote you can't complain. my response was i pay taxes so i have every right to voice my opinion. if one does not work and contribute to the government with tax dollars they have no right to vote or voice an opinion for that matter.
    those you mention who are willing to fight might just want the excuse to kill someone if they don't know why they are fighting. they more than likely will not fight because a bad society is to them better than dying trying to preserve a good society which we do not have today anyway. i am not so sure we have a large population of patriots today, for if we did they would have stormed the bastile by now.
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    • Posted by 9 years, 7 months ago
      I agree, anyone living off the system should not be able to vote. And I'll go one further, anyone who takes a paycheck from the government should not be allowed to vote.

      I'm sure there are those just looking for an excuse to get violent but most of these people are just angry. Like the mob in Baltimore, they know the system is f*%#ed up and they refuse to bow down but they won't take the time or the effort to find out what is truly wrong. And if they did they might find out that some of their own beliefs are part of the problem. Even some otherwise rational people with that one issue that causes their emotions to overpower their senses.

      While a patriot may have to pick up a gun, willingness to pick up a gun does not make one a patriot.
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  • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 9 years, 7 months ago
    Sure you can. Not voting is called undervoting. It states a valid political position. What you can't do is vote for None of the Above in a system with a two faced one party system choosing the candidates. I''m leaning more and more to wards the idea of the right to vote or for that matter holding public office elected, appointed or as a consultant shill being earned with something more than ''accident of birth'' as a qualifier. To be able to vote for war I'm leaning more towards veterans only. The rest of society has failed too much and killed too many of us with their cannon fodder baby factory mentality.

    As far as patriotism is concerned I''m considered an expat but consider myself a current patriot if you are talking ÜSA and Constitution. As far as the present government is concerned I've never changed my allegiance from the Constitution of the USA to the present whatever it is and consider their supporters be neverpats.
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    • Posted by 9 years, 7 months ago
      Millions stayed home in the last few elections and has anybody gotten the point? All the "voices" took credit or placed blame for it but nobody "got it". A "none of the above" option would sure be helpful but not happening any time soon.
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  • Posted by term2 9 years, 7 months ago
    Personally I believe that voting in this day and age is useless. There needs to be a LOT of education done so people start thinking again before they vote. In the meantime there is so much pressure to have giveaways that other people pay for that its pretty useless to fight it.
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    • Posted by 9 years, 7 months ago
      Yes, education is the key. But it must be education of the right ideas. Currently liberals are in charge of the educating and the conservatives are fighting hard for that control but not pushing the right ideas. By conservatives, I mean the religious left (more commonly known as the religious right) and those who won't challenge their rights violating assertions because they believe them to be on the same side.

      Every opportunity must be taken to promote the right ideas. IE.. Objectivism
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      • Posted by term2 9 years, 7 months ago
        I agree Objectivism education is key. But, I think that this country has gone too far already to socialism to stop it without an economic collapse like in Venezuela, where people can see firsthand the pain socialism causes. THAT would be the time to promote Objectivism more effectively. Today, socialism is treated like its the panacea to every ill, and we still have enough wealth to redistribute around and make it look like its working.
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        • Posted by 9 years, 7 months ago
          You may be right. An economic collapse may be unavoidable and the pain it causes may prove necessary but it may take a while to run out of other peoples money. And either way, the more Objectivists there are, the better chance we have.
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