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Honey or Vinegar, which is appropriate when arguing

Posted by dbhalling 9 years, 7 months ago to Culture
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Some people complain about how I argue and that I show anger and disgust. They believe I should take the advice of the saying “you will attract more flies with honey than vinegar.” So when discussing Obama or Environmentalists I should say they are misguided. I should patiently lay out the facts and not say that Obama is a thief, liar, and he is pushing ideas that killed over 200 million people last century. And when discussing environmentalism I not point out that Rachel Carson lied about DDT, that she is responsible for the deaths of over 100 million people, that they want to put people like me in jail for telling the truth that global warming prophets have lied repeatedly about the temperature data. Or that I should not say Obama lied when he said you could keep your doctor, that there are in fact death panels and a good friend of ours is being denied a cancer medication because of Obamacare. I should not point out that the communists such as Obama want to steal everyone’s retirement account or I shouldn’t call them thieves and I should not complain about their desire to tax people’s wealth. I should stay quite when they call me racist and say all our problems are the result of white European males. Or I should not point out that environmentalists want to kill 5.5 billion people and I should not call them evil for this.

It seems to me that they can have several motivations for wanting me not to point these out or not get angry about them. One is the belief that by talking nicely to people like Obama, Rachel Carson and their supporters you can convince them of the error of their ways. While pointing out that they are evil and despicable will turn them off. The fallacy in this approach is that these people are reasonable or have any interest in reason. The Jews could not have talked Hitler out of the gas chambers and ovens. Perhaps one Jew might have been able to save himself, but they could not have stopped Hitler by sweet talking him. The same is true of Stalin and Mao. Now they might argue that Obama is not Stalin, but they would be wrong. The US is a police state and while this has happened over time Obama has accelerated it, and if he had the power he would be happy to round up all the white European males and put them in concentration camps. He had been clear that he agrees that people who do not swear allegiance to the Global Warming gods should be thrown in jail. He has shown that he believes it is just fine to use the tax system to destroy political opponents. He is evil and you cannot use logic, reason, or sweet talk to change him or his associates.

Two is the belief that if you have reason, logic and evidence on your side there is no reason to get emotional about people who want to kill off 95% of the world’s population, or want to destroy the world’s economy with fake science. I call this the Spock fallacy after Spock on Star Trek. It is irrational to not show emotion if you are faced by unspeakable evil. It would be one thing if this was being advanced by a crazy street person, but to see it advanced by people high up in government and academic positions is particularly horrifying and the only logical reaction is anger and disgust.

Three is the belief that other people are watching my conversations and therefore I need to appear to be the nicer person in the debate. For instance, I am having a debate with a global warming advocate and they suggest the data has never been manipulated or they suggest I should be put in jail for not believing. I am supposed to calmly disagree and say their intentions are worthy, they are just wrong. A third person watching this exchange is most likely to side with the person who is morally disgusted, not the one trying to play nice.

The problem with the world is not that I point out the irrational evil movements that are being propagated, or that I show anger and disgust at these movements and their proponents, it’s that not enough people are mad about these issues.


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  • Posted by $ Thoritsu 9 years, 7 months ago
    Great post. I think both approaches work along with a change in tempo during the discussion, at least on those listening, or mildly interested in the truth. Some progressives/liberals/zealots have been lied to and were not smart enough to glean the truth, often since they assume the widespread acceptance among people and media is a suitable crucible of truth. Some of these people can be swayed.

    My favorite argument to present nowadays is "If you seek to control me, to limit my freedom by law, and therefore force and gun, the burden of proof is on you to be overwhelmingly right." Few argue this point objectively, even if a minute before they were rattling their sabers for a CEO's firing, building codes or gun control (the note about enforcement of laws by guns is particularly eye-opening). Then simple contradictory facts find purchase.
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  • Posted by MinorLiberator 9 years, 7 months ago
    Vinegar, without doubt. You don't use honey to fight cancer, and the ideas we are fighting are so much worse. The people you want to attract want the truth and cold hard, facts. And the people who want to be fed honey, don't matter.

    I don't recall seeing much, in fact, zero, honey in Atlas...and that book did OK...
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  • Posted by Zenphamy 9 years, 7 months ago
    I think vinegar is not only appropriate, but is also necessary.
    I also like ridicule and humiliation.
    Honey is sticky and draws flies, while vinegar is cleansing, antiseptic, and repels a lot of insects.

    I also like the word NO and the statements such as 'I won't let you do that to me' and I strongly advocate for doing whatever is necessary to stop evil, putting fools in their place, and not tolerating the willfully ignorant.

    So hang in there db. You do have some admirers and support. Lying and smiling to be liked is a politician's game, not a producer's.
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  • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 9 years, 7 months ago
    Nicely put. Depends on your objective. If you want to execute flys by all means use honey. Gets them in the target zone. Once swatted use the vinegar to clean up the mess then forget about them. Concersation doesn't enter into it just a fast left or right SWAT!

    Good post I'm adding a thumbs up especially for seeing the Rachel Carson comment. LBJ eat your heart out.
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