Firearm Owners Deter Crime Says Detroit Police Chief

Posted by khalling 10 years, 10 months ago to News
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According to a March 2013 anonymous poll of 15,000 officers by the law enforcement website http://policeone.com., almost 90 percent of the respondents believed casualties would be decreased if armed citizens were present during shooting incidents, while more than 80 percent supported arming teachers who were trained with firearms.
SOURCE URL: http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20140103/METRO01/301030038#ixzz2pM1lTFSe


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  • Posted by $ WillH 10 years, 10 months ago
    I am conservatively optimistic the liberal take of gun control might be finally running its course out. It has to happen at some point as fallacies can only exist for so long before dragged into the light and revealed for what they are. It seems to me that public interest is waning to a large degree. There are simply too many good stats on firearms to be ignored. I do not think we are anywhere near out of the woods, but the tide might be sneaking back a bit.
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    • Posted by LetsShrug 10 years, 10 months ago
      I'd rather have a tidal wave of 2nd Amendment lovers descend on washington...in protest form and put this gun control crap in a permanent coma, than a sneaking backward tide. :)
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      • Posted by $ WillH 10 years, 10 months ago
        So would I, but sometimes you take what you can get.
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        • Posted by LetsShrug 10 years, 10 months ago
          Unacceptable compromise... as any compromise is.
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          • Posted by $ WillH 10 years, 10 months ago
            The speed at which something happens it not necessarily compromise. I am hoping that not only can we stop the loss of rights but actually turn the tide the other way and get past legislation removed starting with the "gun free" zones. That will not be accomplished by inviting armed conflict with the government... At this point.
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            • Posted by LetsShrug 10 years, 10 months ago
              So whoever carries is "inviting armed conflict"? I disagree. Marching on Washington in protest (like any other march on Washington protest) is a united group of like thinkers protesting something government is doing, or hollering for something they SHOULD be doing. Peaceful protesting. How is exercising your 2nd Amendment right inviting an armed conflict with the Government. You're buying into stereo typing.
              I like how you ended with "at this point" though. A message of "keep your hands of our guns" needs to be sent...BEFORE 'that point' comes. Again I say...empty holsters... WEAK.
              (However, now that I think about it more...DC is anti gun and has laws against carrying...so there's that problem...I guess that puts us back to marching at State capitals. Clusters of lunacy all over with how we're being legally limited to express our views or voice our opinions or protest. What's happening to our Country!!!?? Where the hell is the press?)
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              • Posted by $ WillH 10 years, 10 months ago
                I think you hit upon my point. Carrying a firearm in DC is illegal, and they do not honor the carry permits of any state. Marching on DC armed is inviting armed conflict with the government.

                I am wondering just how close a protest can get to DC while staying on Virginia soil. There may be something to that, but there again we need to know Virginia's reciprocity laws with permits, open carry, and rifle carry. My guess is that such a protest would still be ignored like the bikers were.
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                • Posted by $ WillH 10 years, 10 months ago
                  There may be something to this. The reciprocity list for VA is pretty extensive. http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms_Reci...
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                  • Posted by xthinker88 10 years, 10 months ago
                    By my count, if you are licensed to carry in 42 states besides VA, you can carry in VA.

                    Since a lot of the people on this march would be veterans, maybe Arlington Cemetery could be the focal point.
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                    • Posted by Hiraghm 10 years, 10 months ago
                      By my count, if you're a citizen, the 2nd Amendment protects your right to carry.
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                      • Posted by $ WillH 10 years, 10 months ago
                        Ok then, strap one on and walk into DC. Let us know how it works out for you.

                        I agree with you on Constitutional Carry, but we must operate within the restrictions set by the law while using legal proceedings to strike down unconstitutional laws and our votes to elect people who agree with us, while working to win over John Q Public. I think the public can be won over. We are already seeing signs of this. Don’t get me wrong, I do not support ANY compromise on gun control. I want it all back including the laws around Class III firearms. I do not think that we will achieve this by taking actions that will feed into the stereotype perpetrated upon us by liberal politicians and the mainstream media. This is just an opinion though.
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              • Posted by $ winterwind 10 years, 10 months ago
                The press is usually with "whatever important is happening", while WE are usually in the - I'm not making this up - are 2 blocks away, in the fenced-off "free speech area". They usually wander by, maybe snap a photo to show that there was no "legitimate" or "meaningful" protest.
                Remember "if it bleeds, it leads"? It's also true that if you didn't see it on TV or read about it in the paper, it never happened.
                ARRRG
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  • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 10 years, 10 months ago
    He said something that resonated with you, so you hoisted him up; but an appeal to authority is not a citation of authority. The chief before him was arrested at Detroit Metro AIrport for packing a loaded handgun into his luggage. (See here - http://www.gunweek.com/2003/detroit1120....)
    If Detroit is a failed welfare state, if the Detroit Free Press is a lying liberal rag, then why would you give credence to just another city employee? Granted, he does have impressive credentials. So did the previous guy.

    Similarly, you cited from that article a poll of 15,000 police officers. But see stargeezer's comments about his low opinion of police. And that was just one out of many here about police misconduct. It is nice that they agree with you. But your argument needs factual and theoretical support, not just an appeal to authority.

    I agree with your sentiment. I only find the matter somewhat complicated. I will post a link on that later.
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    • Posted by 10 years, 10 months ago
      It was not my intention to appeal to his authority. I posted the article because in my opinion this is a rare admission from the police. And the poll is similarly interesting. I am surprised. the majority of the article is trying to refute the chief 's comments. I was curious about the 7% drop in violent crime but comparing to other cities show fluxuations between years of that amount. Not signifigant enough for a corollation between the two. I 'm not comparing the two chiefs just as I would not say one chief arrested for packing a loaded weapon makes a case for limiting cc.
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  • Posted by barwick11 10 years, 10 months ago
    I live about 30 minutes north of Detroit, so we're right in the middle of all the Detroit news.

    You'd be surprised what's happening in Detroit. It's full of Democrats, but they have to face the reality of what's happening around them. In short, they're acting like Conservatives, even though they believe all the stupid Liberal crap.

    They're cutting budgets, facing down unions, and (I think) even trying to reduce taxes. It's pretty funny to see.
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  • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 10 years, 10 months ago
    You need to read this in context. The question was HYPOTHETICAL about Sandy Hook and Aurora, and assumed that a COMPETENT armed civilian was present. Second, the consensus on The Gulch is that Detroit is a failed government. Here, indeed, the chief of police is saying that armed citizens would help his inept department do its job. Moreover, from that article is this: ".... Authorities added that there were 1,161 non-fatal shootings in the city, ... Despite the drop, Detroit still recorded as many homicides as New York City – despite having a population that's less than one-tenth the size of the Big Apple, the Free Press reported." Detroiters with (legal) guns shoot each other at ten times the rate of New Yorkers who are denied easy access to firearms.

    Furthermore, from that same PoliceOne.com website is this poll about what a police officer would do, if, under-cover and armed, they met another LEO.
    http://www.policeone.com/Officer-Safety/...
    The bottom line is that there is NO WAY to prevent such tragedies.

    To underscore the problem in armed civilians who over-estimate their untried ability to respond under stress, consider that in the Empire State Building shooting of August 25, 2012, EVERY ONE of the shooting victims - perpetrator, by-standers, and police - were shot by police. The perpetrator shot no one.

    The police must have monthly firearms range training. They live a life of response. Yet, this case is not unique. I can find others, including a Miami, Florida case of a security guard killed by responding officers. Until and unless you are in that situation, you only assume that you will do the right thing at the right time.

    I understand and appreciate the apocryphal story of the 87-year old woman who shoots an intruder. If you have a business that requires that you make cash deposits after hours, if your home has been repeatedly burglarized, yes, objective reasons exist to apply for a permit to carry a weapon. That being as it may, letting everyone who wants one have a gun is not going to make everyone else any safer

    Finally, allow me to underscore that my bachelor's is in criminology; and I work as a security guard. And I am not armed. This is Texas. In any confrontation, I am the one guy guaranteed NOT to have a gun. I never felt the need for one.
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    • Posted by Rozar 10 years, 10 months ago
      I heard a quote from Stefan Molyneux that goes along the lines of "if you're pro gun control you are not anti gun, because you'll need people with guns to take away the guns from others. Pro gun control is saying you prefer a small group of people to own all the guns."
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    • Posted by $ winterwind 10 years, 10 months ago
      Mike, Mike, Mike. Too many generalizations, too much sloppy thinking. To wit:

      Yes, the police must have monthly training - in some places. In others, they only have to qualify [that's shoot 20 rounds] every 3 months. In many, their results are not supervised nor critiqued.
      My students and I have practiced beside a LOT of police officers, and they get away with shit that my students are furious about: leaving the range filthy [trash, used targets, brass],
      poor safety discipline [if you consistently run the aim point of your pistol - the zone that starts 1" in front of where the muzzle stops- across someone else's body, you deserve to have the gun taken away from you;
      destruction of range property, usually by shooting large calibre rounds at targets posted for small calibre;
      to the really scary one: TRULY LOUSY shooting. The exception seems to be the SWAT team/TAC TEAM/ etc members who can at least shoot well.

      I certainly don’t feel any safer when police are present unless I know the officer personally.

      "...you only assume that you will do the right thing at the right time..."
      If you make sure you have serious, competent, frequent training, FAIL.
      The place where the Wizard and I are doing our CCW certification has a “black site” where they run any kind of scenario you, or they, want, using AirSoft guns. There’s a big sign that says “You WILL be hit by Air Soft pellets” as a warning. Many of us who have been in the military or have military connections of some sort will smile when I say that I think it’s going to be “good training”.

      If one does not dry-fire-practice several times a week, live-fire-practice AT LEAST once a month, and participate in some sort of scenario training, all assumptions he makes are worthless. If he DOES DO the right training, he won’t be assuming. He’ll be knowing. and it doesn’t matter if he wears a uniform or not.

      and I’m not sure when, or if, I can address “objective reasons…to apply for a permit to carry…”.that’s dangerous talk.
      I’ll see if I can do the “..letting everyone who wants one…” question in a day or two. I will say it’s just pure silly.

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      • Posted by $ stargeezer 10 years, 10 months ago
        All that and more mirrors my experience too. I've been involved with training from FBI down to local cop of the block and small, one man towns. The sunny thing is that the higher up the food chain, the less likely the officers are to perform as expected. This does not include SWAT and other forces, their training may be outstanding to "here's your vest. Back when I was training troops in special tactics, they were eager and very easy to train compared to some FBI types I've instructed. They are FBI, so they know everything - until you prove they don't.
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    • Posted by $ stargeezer 10 years, 10 months ago
      Mike - In 50 states (or will be as soon as IL develops some data) crime stats have dropped shortly after CC became the law of that state.

      You said - "despite having a population that's less than one-tenth the size of the Big Apple, the Free Press reported" I'd love to see the documentation for that, why? because like most everything in that rag, there is none.

      The fact that the NY police seem to hit everything except the target they are shooting at certainly proves they need more training. I guess you are trying to make the point that had there been some trained CC person there, that they would have shot that many more innocent people??? Illogical assumption that cannot be proved since NYers are banned from owning most guns and from carrying any - honest people that is - the criminals and the police still have theirs.

      You discount the "apocryphal story of the 87-year old woman who shoots an intruder", but here is what you cannot discount - when granny got done, the intruder was on the floor, not her. I'd say that to that bad guy, the apocryphal nature of the story did not matter, he was too busy bleeding.

      On your last point about your bravely (I'm NOT poking fun at this - not in the least) working as an unarmed guard, There is a saying in this state about the "Chicago way", missing the first step of bringing a knife to a gun fight just makes one a civilian in a uniform.
      .


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      • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 10 years, 10 months ago
        Apparently, I missed my target. My point was not at all that TRAINED responder would have taken MORE innocent lives.
        For statistics on crime rates see here:
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Stat...
        You can sort the columns. Detroit's rate is three times that of NYC.
        I will have more on this later. For now, see my reply to Dan8. The goal of security as a business is to prevent confrontations. Even winning one is an admission of failure.
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    • Posted by DrZarkov99 10 years, 10 months ago
      Whoa! Quoting the Freep as a credible source? That's pretty much a left-wing propaganda bullhorn, so I seriously doubt they did any research about whether or not the Detroiters who shot each other were all "legal" gun owners. Most were probably violent felons.

      You may be a security guard, but it doesn't sound like you've ever been through a CCW class. The message to a licensee is clear: you are not a cop, so don't act if law enforcement or uniformed security is present. Don't draw your weapon unless there is no other resort, and there is imminent danger to yourself or others around you. You are also not the Lone Ranger, so if you draw the weapon, do so with the intent to kill the person representing the threat; shooting to wound or disarm is fantasy.

      As for the "apocryphal" stories about armed homeowners disabling an intruder, they are sadly hugely outnumbered by real statistics of unarmed homeowners killed by armed intruders. It only takes one violent assault to kill you, so demanding that someone has to have experienced prior assaults before they can own a gun is incredibly stupid.
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      • Posted by 10 years, 10 months ago
        excellent points. I would suggest if you want the discussion to move back up the post-which it deserves to-give MM a thumbs up. He got dinged, so all of these arguments fall dead last in the post. just a thought, dr.
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    • Posted by 10 years, 10 months ago
      I'm still thinking about the rest, but Mike-I could be an aeronautical engineer and that does not qualify me to fly a plane. so what's your point? do you need to practice if you carry? yes. should we not allow CC because you can come up with some stories where things went down poorly? probably not. why so whipped up over this?
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    • Posted by Dan8 10 years, 10 months ago
      Makes no sense, both your logic and your job. First, with a BA in criminology one would think you could have a better job than security guard. Second a security guard without a weapon is not a security guard, just what do you do in a confrontation, blow a whistle?
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      • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 10 years, 10 months ago
        Any confrontation is a failure mode. The difference between BUSINESS and GOVERNMENT is that business attempts to predict the future; government attempts to change the past. I will have more in response to your cogent questions. I do have a long and successful career as a technical writer. My experience in security is the result of an experiment that went well. I capitalize on my degrees and my work history.
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      • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 10 years, 10 months ago
        You took a thumbs down for that, but I pointed it back up. It is a fair question, albeit like "Who would take care of the poor?" I mean, in our public education systems and mass-mediated entertainment inundations, even advocates of freedom do not have the facts they need. We are all struggling here. Otherwise, "Atlas Shrugged" would never have been written.
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    • Posted by $ ernieg 10 years, 10 months ago
      OK, I am an AK resident and even though open carry is legal here I do not use it with town areas as marked for no hunting, to many rural areas to get my shooting in and game is plentiful when in season.
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