Do you think the average person could handle real freedom and laissez faire capitalism?

Posted by lmarrott 10 years, 11 months ago to Culture
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I just wanted to open up a discussion with everyone to see what your thoughts were. I got into a huge argument with my brother recently about Obamacare and his love of social welfare systems (he's pretty much socialist) and freedom.

He was asking about my thoughts on regulations for businesses and how to protect the people from businesses. I was trying to tell him that if I had my way there wouldn't be regulations, but I feel like this requires people to really do their homework for the free markets to work. For good businesses to succeed and more importantly for bad businesses to fail and go away. I include in this schools, doctors, and many things that people don't ever really think about. They just take what they get and deal with it.

So my question is do you think the average person (I'm generally thinking of US Citizens) could handle this. Taking their kids out of schools if they are unhappy, changing doctors, not shopping at a store they had a bad experience at? Or do you feel like most people are so indoctrinated in the system that people just accept things the way they are?


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  • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 10 years, 11 months ago
    Compared to everyone else in the world, Americans are more individualistic and more educated. American adults are MORE SCIENCE LITERATE than other industrialized adults. In another discussion here, I mentioned the "jante" the Scandinavian cultural imperative to conform. After two college classes in conversational Japanese for business, I worked for Kawasaki and Honda. In Japan comedians were banned from television for making fun of conformity.

    It is true, also, that other cultures also have strong elements of individualism. Nigeria is a complicated place of several (incompatible) peoples, and among some, it is expected that you leave your family and make your own way. In Ghana, barred from owning land and hunting, women turned to the marketplace and run most of the businesses.

    In addition tot he usual classes in western history, I had an elective in history of China. Hardly the first you would think of, across the centuries, when either freed from domination or just allowed to choose, people there exactly as you and I might prefer.

    Just to say, Americans are special, but not entirely unique in every respect.

    We are, nonetheless, a self-selected people, the most individualist from all over, willing to leave everything and everybody behind. And we all know that this is not the capitalist society we would prefer. The reasons why are complicated.

    First and foremost, those best qualities were never identified in their own right, on their own terms. It is difficult to emancipate yourself from 2500 years or more of continuously reinforced ideologies. Many people here still believe in God and go to church and quote the Bible. You take the good with the bad.

    Even at the height of the Aquitaine Renaissance, Italian Renaissance, the Northern Renaissance, the Age of Reason, and the Enlightenment, most people did what they usually do, while a handful of creators went forward. In America of the 19th and 20th centuries most people were predictably ignorant, superstitious, and fearful. But an ever-larger number of creators went forward to explore and develop new ideas.

    We here believe that when presented with the right ideas, often enough, in as many contexts as possible, across the landscape of American culture, enough people will make the right decisions. Change will come.
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    • Posted by j_IR1776wg 10 years, 11 months ago
      " In America of the 19th and 20th centuries most people were predictably ignorant, superstitious, and fearful." Hiraghm's post is right on. Really Mike "most people were predictability ignorant..." Try taking the following HS entrance exam from 1860.

      http://csaa.typepad.com/country_school_a...

      And tell us how you did

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      • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 10 years, 11 months ago
        I had to give up three. I do not know where Chicopee is and I did not bother with Leagues, Miles, Furlongs, and Rods. (I did question the question: St. Petersburg, Florida or Russia?) However, as a numismatist, I am pretty good at Pounds-shilling-pence. In fact, anyone taking this test in 1860 in Massachusetts grew up in a world of SPANISH coins denominated in ENGLISH coins. Federal coinage was a secondary tier. As for the rest of it, in 1860 an 8th grade education was sufficient; most people had less than that. The upper classes were prepared for this test.

        As for the general education level, we here would consider it abysmal. There is a "Twilight Zone" story about a man who seeks a "better time" and goes back to the 19th century. Sitting around a nice dinner table with the best sort of people, he is confronted with ignorance and prejudice so deep that he simply presses the lever and leaves for a different time.

        We have made over 150 years of progress since 1860, the electron, the positron, votes for women, racial equality carried so far that the smartest people deny the very existence of race, gender and sexuality as non-issues, the complete demolition of the "socialist utopia" theory of social progress.
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      • Posted by 10 years, 11 months ago
        I would utterly fail this test. Partially would be because of unfamiliarly terms, but then it would be I simply don't know much of it.

        I'm sure if people were applying they had some idea of what to study ahead of time. But still that's a pretty fun reminder of where our education has gone.
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        • Posted by j_IR1776wg 10 years, 11 months ago
          Yes a widely educated populace is required for freedom and capitalism to persist over time. Slaves need not be educated which is where America is headed I'm afraid.
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    • Posted by Hiraghm 10 years, 11 months ago
      "Many people here still believe in God and go to church and quote the Bible. You take the good with the bad."

      Yes, yes we do. That's why we don't burn atheists at the stake.... hmm... maybe the Inquisition had something after all...

      Your contempt for the bulk of humanity reeks of progressivism.
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  • Posted by LetsShrug 10 years, 11 months ago
    Define "handle".
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    • Posted by 10 years, 11 months ago
      Objectively and reasonably evaluate their choices of doing business and who to do it with in a way that would be in their own best interest.
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      • Posted by LetsShrug 10 years, 11 months ago
        I think you're asking what the alternative is for not being responsible for your own well being. If there's no safety net to counter act their own bad decisions then they would have to learn to do what they need to do to make sure their needs were met... or they don't. I want to be free to not interfere with their personal capabilities. Free to succeed and free to fail. No force.
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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 10 years, 11 months ago
    I thought about this more, and I realized one premise that it's easier to handle lack of freedom than freedom. I wonder how often that's true. I wonder if the same people who would have a hard time working out a deal with a doctor's office also have a hard time figuring out gov't Medicare forms. I'm not sure how often gov't running something actually helps those who can't take care of themselves.
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    • Posted by 10 years, 11 months ago
      Good point. Maybe it's like that illusion of safety. They think they are being taken care of because it's "the government". When they could do just as good and most likely better.
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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 10 years, 11 months ago
    If we let people drive cars, there will be 50k deaths a year.

    If we let people have nicotine, alcohol, and caffeine, some people will get addicted and some people will develop real problems.

    I did a charity walk once, and I signed a waiver that said "I understand that walking involves some risk."

    So if the bar is that not a single person can harmed, then we probably should have no freedom at all.
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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 10 years, 11 months ago
    Most people would rise to the occasion. I'm assuming in this, that the changes would be phased in over a few years.

    I think PPACA is on the balance a good thing, but I do not understand the argument of protecting people from businesses. Business works by finding ways to help more and more people. I can make a little money designing a board for someone, but if I can design a system that makes boards or a board that many people use and would like support for, I will be more successful. So if I go from helping about eight clients on and off to something that a million people want to purchase, then suddenly your brother would say those people need protection from me. Why? My mind is always looking for some ways to put cheap parts together in a way that people like to pay for. I can't imagine being so good at giving people something they'll pay for that those people now need protection from me.

    Maybe he means protecting people from me not disposing of chemicals properly. I agree with protecting people from acts like that. I don't understand protecting someone from business itself.
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  • Posted by thowellaz 10 years, 11 months ago
    I think we can't do anything but change our selves which is why I don't go into the big box stores unless it is an emergency. I buy all of my cloths I can from American Made Clothing online. The rest I buy American which can be found in stores in Wyoming and Colorado. I have found almost everything big I need cloths, boots, toothpaste for myself and family American made. I eat out at small locally owned restaurants. Remember we can only change ourselves and it is Tyrannical to tell other people what to do. If America sinks it will be because there are more idiots than real Americans and I don't believe that is so.
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