Forced Vaccinations to be Decided This Week

Posted by $ Abaco 9 years, 8 months ago to Legislation
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I thought this would happen. I'm just surprised it is happening this fast. The proposal was timed with the Brian Wilson (liar) reports of measles at Disneyland. Perhaps that's why. Anyway, SB277 is being debated this week at the State Capitol. This bill forces all children to be vaccinated per an extensive schedule that's in the bill (apart from the CDC schedule but based on it) and that can be modified at any time. It's already pretty extensive. It does away with religious exemptions. Even home-schooled children are subject. Any child that isn't vaccinated per the list on the bill will be classified at truant. CPS and law enforcement will be called in to take the child and vaccinate them. At that point, when do the parents see their child again? Anybody's guess.

Years ago I asked on another Objectivist forum if the members were in favor of forced vaccination. At least half were, to my surprise. The moderator of that forum chimed in with the obvious. But, I am curious what other Objectivists still think of this concept. I am pretty sure it will be enacted pretty soon. Best of luck to you and the young ones in your families.


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  • Posted by Bowzerbird 9 years, 8 months ago
    What it always boils down to is government control. In this case, the parents are demanding THIER rights to vaccinate their child. THEIR RIGHTS??? What I see & hear is "I care more about MY rights then the safety of my child."
    Bring your unvaccinated kid anywhere [home schooled even] and if he/she has measels and passes it on YOU should be liable for the damage done to every other child/person.
    When "My rights" infringes on the rights of others,by NOT vaccinating your brat, you are a danger to society.
    This is one time I feel government control IS the right thing to do. Forcing the self-righteous parents to vaccinate is constructive, logical, practical and efficient.
    If I had a day care center, DON'T bring your unvaccinated kid to my premises.
    Measels KILLS and you don't get autism from vaccinating.
    Get a life and think of your kids safety FIRST and not your [in this case] selfish pride in damanding YOUR rights superceding and overshadowing your own flesh & blood --- YOUR CHILDS LIFE.
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  • Posted by $ 9 years, 8 months ago
    It's comin'. It passed the Health Committee yesterday. This should be very entertaining!!!
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    • Posted by Ducky 9 years, 8 months ago
      California is giving us so many reasons to leave, and very few, to stay. The corruption, ignorance and statist attitudes towards people in this state have continued for decades, as have their problems. This ain't over, even if it does pass.
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      • Posted by $ 9 years, 8 months ago
        The nation really is slipping, and California is leading the way.

        This morning I took the family in to update their passports. I needed to pay about $180 cash to the lady at the post office. As I pulled my wallet out she barked, "If you don't have the cash I'll just rip up your paperwork and we'll start over later." Oh, I had the cash. AND, on every $100 that passes thru my wallet I write, "Who is John Galt?"
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  • Posted by $ 9 years, 8 months ago
    I appreciate all the replies! I have learned so much about this subject of vaccines over the past decade. But, the question here is one about the application of force. I know this is tough, especially for Objectivists who believe that there is zero risk with vaccines, and that there are only benefits. Some may even believe that vaccines may not protect them from the unvaccinated. I know people are very afraid these days, based on what we see in the news. But, this is a very important milestone for our nation, and few in the general public even know it's happening.

    Once again, thanks. I sincerely hope that the little ones in your lives have great health and a strong start to their own lives. They only get one shot.
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  • Posted by $ root1657 9 years, 8 months ago
    I see this the same way I see helmet laws. I don't think it should be a law. I wear a helmet every single time I ride because I choose to, the fact that I'm complying with it as a law is a bit irrelevant. I don't think it should be a law. I also vaccinate my kid for everything under the sun as soon as able, but I don't think it should be a law.
    If you want to paint your brain on the highway, or let your kids die of horrible preventable disease, well, I guess it's chlorine in the gene pool.
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    • Posted by slfisher 9 years, 8 months ago
      If it was limited to having your own kids dying of horrible preventable disease, it would be one thing, but we're having things like people who can't be vaccinated, or babies too young to be vaccinated, or people with immune system problems, catching the diseases because of the unvaccinated.
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  • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 9 years, 8 months ago
    I can't find a flu shot in Mexico. I also haven't caught the flu. On the other side of the coin my one hundred dollar a month forced contribution to Medicare gets me nothing except a flu shot IF I return tot he US in a specific time frame. It doesn't fit my schedule. The year of the swine flu deaths I was allowed to skip that shot while in the military. It was the only year back then I didn't get the flu.
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  • Posted by blackswan 9 years, 8 months ago
    A few centuries ago, these guys brain brothers would have passed a law requiring forced bleeding with leeches. The hubris of "modern" medicine is getting downright dangerous, especially since there is a difference of opinion about the source and treatment of disease. A la Pasteur, disease is caused by germs, while others say that disease is caused by an imbalance in the body, and the germs are opportunistic organisms showing up AFTER the disease has appeared. In the former, a vaccine is required to fight the disease. In the latter, building one's immune system is required to fight the disease. Until that argument is scientifically settled (not asserted by so-called scientists), this law should be resisted by every means necessary.
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  • Posted by Ducky 9 years, 8 months ago
    Remember context...When we have so much corruption between public officials and corporate cronies, the weaponization of gov't bureaus against people for political beliefs, so many personal, political and corporate agendas, so many mandates that life in the USA is starting to look like a series of toll-booths--Do you really want the Untouchables to have this kind of power over your/your family's health? Really? You trust them that much??

    This is not the proper role of government in a free society.

    I think that parents should discuss each of the vaccines' necessities and appropriateness for them/their kids as individuals. If they decide to skip a vaccine and the child gets sick, they should keep them away from other children anyway--and not get threatening calls from the school about truancy, which only encourages attendance while sick.

    A little research will turn up how many of these diseases were significantly reduced prior to the massive vaccine campaigns, by 1) careful monitoring of immigrants' health, prior to admission to the country; 2) by increased sanitation and nutrition, thanks to capitalism; and 3) by increasing public awareness and gaining a better understanding of how diseases were spread. Kids who get many of these diseases in our country now do not suffer the same long-term effects as those in 3rd world countries, where nutrition is inadequate and sanitation, unheard-of.

    One last thing...If the people making these decisions to put something directly into your/your kids' bloodstream really, truly cared about your health, why would they not only be allowing unvaccinated and actively diseased people into our country--but actually knowingly placing them throughout communities, without a care to the rest of us?



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    • Posted by DeanStriker 9 years, 8 months ago
      "This is not the proper role of government in a free society."

      That one truth is all that need be said! Yet being under GOVERNment, which IS Force and (by the definition of "govern") cannot be otherwise, mankind is condemned to eternal debate about just what IS the "proper role" of tyranny?

      Does not the NAP Axiom apply to everything and everyone?
      http://no-ruler.net/nap-axiom/
      So who really wants or "needs" to be GOVERNed?
      Is that not the basic underlying principle of our Gulch dream?
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  • Posted by DeanStriker 9 years, 8 months ago
    NOTHING should be Forced, and that would include vaccinations.

    HOWEVER, That ought not relieve the responsibility for the possible effects of not being vaccinated and supposedly infecting another. So then we enter the jungle of legalese!

    So then appears the problem of Truth -- we so often don't have it, or often cannot know what IS the truth, especially these days!
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    • Posted by $ 9 years, 8 months ago
      How many documented, verified cases of unvaccinated spreading deadly diseases have you seen in the US in the past 30 years? Think about it. I haven't found any. And, no, the Disneyland outbreak is not one of those. The whooping cough outbreaks a few years ago were among the vaccinated. We are seeing an outbreak of a new polio strain among children who have been vaccinated for polio RIGHT HERE IN THE U.S. It is amazing how silent the media has been about this very scary story.

      Things other than vaccines protect us from illness. At the same time, some illness is part of existence. People are very afraid. They want the government to protect them.
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  • Posted by $ 9 years, 8 months ago
    There's a facet to this discussion that almost nobody ever mentions. I have found that many people can't even comprehend it, curiously. I'll mention it later. I enjoy hearing from fellow Objectivists on this application of force. I see it as a major turning point in our history. Thanks for the responses.
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    • Posted by Mamaemma 9 years, 8 months ago
      Ok, Abaco, time to mention it.
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      • Posted by $ 9 years, 8 months ago
        The factor that nobody brings up is this:

        When I was a child in 1971 there was one vaccine suggested by the CDC prior to kindergarten. Now, 35 vaccinations are required before kindergarten. Since 1985 when the schedule started really being augmented autism increased by 13,000%. Meanwhile, the vaccine schedule has never been tested regarding developmental disabilities. I know this because I've spent almost a decade looking for such a study. It doesn't exist. I am opposed to the use of force until the proper studies are done.

        And, FWIW there is only one other environmental suspect that occurred during that 13,000% increase. It hasn't been tested either.

        Autism grew right along with childhood asthma, something I think is also worthy of more study.

        I could get into the science of vaccines but that seems to just get people wound up. How much adjuvant is safe? Well, we don't know. This thing is a real Pandora's box...

        So, if one is in favor of force - how many vaccines are too many? The facet I'm asking about Mamaemma is one of "how many?" If the schedule expands to 100 vax by the age of 4 do we swat team families and take their kids? How deep down the hole do we go? Are we already too deep? This can't be answered here...yet, it's worthy of discussion.
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        • Posted by Ducky 9 years, 8 months ago
          Bulls-eye!!

          It all boils down to the principle of the proper use of government in a free society. (And when you say government, you must think "force" and be sure to add "at the point of a gun," because that is ALWAYS implied when laws are enacted.)

          Once you placed that principle (proper use of government) as your foundation, then you can talk about the concretes--the most rational way to go about vaccines and other options for disease prevention, their safety, how schools should decide policy, etc.

          Thank you for highlighting that principle--you illustrated perfectly how the pragmatic approach can end up in disaster, on this one topic alone.
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        • Posted by $ Thoritsu 9 years, 8 months ago
          There are a maximum of 10 vaccines required for kindergarten according to:
          http://vaccines.procon.org/view.resource...
          How do you get to 35?
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          • Posted by $ 9 years, 8 months ago
            I read the CDC vaccine schedule. I count the boosters. It comes to the child being vaccinated 35 times by kindergarten. This is not your parents' schedule. It's much, much different. And, it's never been tested for safety. Ever.
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            • Posted by $ Thoritsu 9 years, 8 months ago
              Not been implemented in anyone I know. Do you have a link to the CDC data?
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              • Posted by $ 9 years, 8 months ago
                No. It's easy to find, though. And, you are right. It hasn't been implemented on many children as it is written.

                And, SB277 is being amended to give a child up to 15 vaccines during their kindergarten year as a "catch-up" schedule. 15 in one year. Uh, no thanks.

                How many is too many? How young is too young? Answer: we don't know. That's my original point... I don't know. You don't know. Nobody knows. Because the studies haven't been done to come to a conclusion.
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  • -1
    Posted by brkssb 9 years, 8 months ago
    Just when do individual rights trump individual rights? Given your child is the source of infection of my child, expect a lawsuit if you failed to take appropriate defensive action. Given the vaccine is the source of the damage to or death of my child, expect retribution against the perpetrator. Given the state of the democracy and subjugation of individual rights to government controls, IN THE INTERIM, I favor compulsory vaccinations (with medical exemptions and isolation of infections). -- [Imagine if Walmart were to demand proof of vaccination at its doors?]
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    • Posted by PeterAsher 9 years, 8 months ago
      I, a robust healthy 81 year old who skis and can work construction for a ten hour day have lifetime immunity from measles and chicken pox, German measles and mumps. Had them and got through them, no problem.

      This list of vaccines they have added is absurd. Diphtheria and Polio, yes; Small pox if needed due to an outbreak; yes. Otherwise, people should be free to deny these poisons in their bloodstream.

      If you want to drink the koolaid propaganda from Big Pharma, inject away!

      Other people are not obligated to protect you from your vaccines failure at the expense of the side, or actually. direct effects.

      Have you heard of “Measles parties?”
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      • Posted by Mamaemma 9 years, 8 months ago
        Yes, Peter, I have heard of measles parties. Boy, that takes me back!
        I hear you that you had them and got through them, no problem, but now we are learning that viruses are not eradicated by the immune system, but only suppressed. So now we have shingles affecting a lot of older people, and it can be quite debilitating. These viruses hang around in the body for a lifetime, and we don't know yet all the later effects they may have.
        A good example: the herpes vaccine, which is taken to prevent cervical cancer, which is directly related to genital herpes.
        Edit:clarity
        I am just saying that the issue is more complicated than you are presenting here.
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        • Posted by $ Mimi 9 years, 8 months ago
          It’s not a herpes vaccine. It’s for genital warts, a different sexually-transmitted virus altogether. That vaccine was rushed to market. I know it’s not very rational to rely on ‘gut-feelings’ but I’m only human and my gut feeling tells me that vaccination is not effective and there could be unintended consequences. It was barely on the market when they passed a law or tried to pass a law in DC-- that all twelve-year-old girls had to be vaccinated. I’m glad my girls were a little older and out of the city at the time.
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        • Posted by Ranter 9 years, 8 months ago
          I remember, as a child, being taken by my parents to visit friends who had measles, mumps, chicken pox, etc., so I would be exposed early, contract the disease when my resistance was still strong, and then be immune for life. That worked -- until I got a case of the shingles last year (after taking the shingles vaccine).
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          • Posted by $ Mimi 9 years, 8 months ago
            Seriously? You got the the shingles after being vaccinated? Sounds like the flu shot. I’ve been debating whether to get the shot because I have had the chicken pox, but also, my mother got the shingles and I remember how painful it had been for her. I don’t usually get the flu shot because my experience has been every one I know that gets the shot gets the flu. I know that’s not the way it is suppose to work, but there it is.
            I don’t understand forcing the chicken pox vaccination on anyone. It’s not usually life-threatening. It does have it’s risk for unborn children, but even so...forcing school-age kids to get vaccinated for chicken pox? My kids had to in our state when the vaccine was new. I grumbled but complied. Too many pregnant teachers if you ask me. Lol.
            Measles and mumps on the other hand can have some rather nasty consequences including death in some cases, so...I’m okay with the MMR schedule of vaccinations. Iv’e never been drawn into to this debate so I don’t really have a stance.
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