Freedom of Speech - unless it's about Christ????

Posted by stargeezer 10 years, 11 months ago to Culture
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At what point does separation of church and state become state as church or the only acceptable religion becoming no religion??

It seems that in 50 years we have moved from prayer being acceptable in school to the point where efforts are made to strip any reference to religion from school. In effect raising the state as God to fill the vacuum left in the lives of the students.
SOURCE URL: http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/01/07/jesus-is-not-allowed-teacher-reportedly-bans-first-grade-student-from-handing-out-christmas-candy-cane-story/


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  • Posted by richrobinson 10 years, 11 months ago
    I am not a religious guy Star. I have never attended Church on a regular basis. In 5th grade we learned about the 10 commandments. Each Year we sang Christmas Carols and I walked past manger scenes without being offended. I have never understood the attack on religion. I guess the Atheists are winning.
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    • Posted by $ 10 years, 11 months ago
      Thank you Rich. I too wonder at the vitriol that often is poured out toward Christians these days.

      I've met a few Christians that, in my opinion, have been a bit over the top in their approach to non-Christians and I don't understand how they think that helps either. The one thing I'm totally certain about is my firm commitment to Christ and how I choose to live my life because of it AND how I will not apologize for being a Christian. That does NOT include my being rude because of it.

      My Children were taught at home when and where it was possible and in the countries where homeschooling was not possible they were instructed that they had a obligation to listen to their teachers but to be willing to stand for what was correct without being rude. It seems to me that this school missed that life lesson.
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  • Posted by Rozar 10 years, 11 months ago
    Eh I don't know. I wouldn't want a kid passing out candy mixed with stories of muhammad at my kids school. He could come home asking a lot of questions I wouldn't be necessarily ready to answer.
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    • Posted by CircuitGuy 10 years, 11 months ago
      Our UU church sends the kids to various other religions' services and teaches them about them. The kids end up knowing more about other religions than the adults.

      I don't get people wanting or opposing religions being referred to as peaceful. It seems like they are all evoked to support war and peace. I don't care if someone tells my kids the Judeo/Christian/Islamic tradition is about war or peace. I definitely want to respect other people, but to me this is an argument about who's imaginary friend is the nicest.
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      • Posted by $ Maphesdus 10 years, 11 months ago
        What does UU stand for?
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        • Posted by CircuitGuy 10 years, 11 months ago
          Unitarian Universalists. The joke answer is UU = atheists with children who want them to go to a godless Sunday school.

          Unitarianism started as a liberalized form of Christianity, but modern UU draws from all religions of the world without accepting their anti-scientific elements. For me it's a place to meet people and stop for an hour on Sunday to consider the universe beyond my own world.
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    • Posted by $ 10 years, 11 months ago
      If so, would the "problem" be the school setting itself up as a judge of what's correct and public censor OR your inability to answer the questions??

      And the question is still out there, what gave the school the right to act as information censor?
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      • Posted by LetsShrug 10 years, 11 months ago
        Here's the thing about religion in schools. They teach (at Christmas time) a little bit about a bunch of different practices around the world. I'd rather they teach nothing, it's not the schools place, it's the parent's place to teach or not to teach religion. My biggest fear is that one day soon Islam will be part of that lesson. There's NO way they'll tell the truth of it either. It'll be "the religion of peace".... blaaaaa
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        • Posted by $ 10 years, 11 months ago
          I would not argue about these who may know least about this subject not teaching it. However, to ban a child from passing a note him wrote to each of his friends seems to sway onto the path that leads to complete intolerance.

          That teacher does not know the moral teaching of the parents and should not instill hers.

          Islam is one of the acceptable forms of religion in school these days. I suppose because it's a religion of peace and harmony. :)

          Christianity is another matter.
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          • Posted by LetsShrug 10 years, 11 months ago
            Perhaps I didn't read the article close enough. Did it say was the teacher threw away exactly? I don't think the teacher should have done that, BUT I would brace myself for some parental complaints..and the parents would have the right to do so. Can' we just get the gov out of schools and solve a pile of problems? A HUGE pile.
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            • Posted by $ 10 years, 11 months ago
              The kid has written some notes about Christ being what Christmas was about, so she cut them off and threw them in the trash saying that there was no Christ allowed in school.

              FWIW, I found him in a foxhole and discovered he'd been with me all the time.
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              • Posted by LetsShrug 10 years, 11 months ago
                That teacher did the wrong thing. Wouldn't say the parents of the student who wrote the note did the right thing either though. Can I just call the whole thing is a sticky wicket?
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          • Posted by khalling 10 years, 11 months ago
            Iagree the attacks
            on Christianity are ridiculous. However if the teacher should not be allowed to impose her beliefs in the classroom why should the parent have been.
            ? The candycane story is one that is religious. Whether the boy had the idea or not, his parent instigated the project. Its like this. If parents are allowed to distribute religious material to classrooms then the same should be allowed for political messages or other agendas like ads for aparents business. That's really the point behind the policy. How it 's handled is another thing.
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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 10 years, 11 months ago
    50 years before that there was even more religion in school. IMHO it's not establishing a religion if they don't focus on one religion, but I'd rather they didn't get into religion at all.

    I find it complicated to explain even to my kids because Christmas is a huge secular holiday. Santa Claus and exchanging gifts don't have a direct link to religion. We're atheists but we still celebrate Christmas, some gifts for the kids on the Solstice and some on Christmas Day. It really doesn't make much sense. I can't see avoiding Christmas, though, since 95% of the things people say about it have Pagan or secular roots.
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  • Posted by khalling 10 years, 11 months ago
    I am torn on this incident. While the teacher had no business making a big deal out of incident nor should she have thrown away the boy's property, I still think the parent who was obviously behind the gift and the message bears some responsibility for the situation. The message, however sweet, was intended to persuade or expose others to the parent 's belief. If this exchange had happened in Sunday school or any other organized event outside of the classroom - I say fine. I think the parent knew there might be a conflict over this - which was not fair for the child. Regardless, the gifts were well meaning and the sentiment should have been respected.
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    • Posted by CircuitGuy 10 years, 11 months ago
      I agree with everything you say. I wonder if we just accept it if parents from other religions will do it. Atheist parents could send cards reminding people that Pagan traditions are behind the date and many icons of the holiday. Other parents could bring political messages, e.g. implying their religion would support gov't healthcare or military interventions to protect the weak. All of that would be a case of parents acting worse than children. It's really rude to give out cards when you know some of the people will be Jehovah's Witnesses who don't believe in recognizing holidays at all. People who do this put teachers in the awkward position of having to enforce rules like "no religious material whatsoever in the classroom." People should use some tact.
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      • Posted by Hiraghm 10 years, 11 months ago
        Why does everyone automatically pose atheism as adversary to Christianity?

        It's telling that the atheist parents in your scenario are making anti-Christian sentiments, not pro-atheist sentiments.
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        • Posted by khalling 10 years, 11 months ago
          how is illustrating historical fact anti-Christian? There are agenda-driven atheists. I think most just don't want to be hit over the head with any religious agenda. for instance: National Day of Prayer. somehow the country got along just fine running its business without this until 1952. From this year on-a not insignificant amount of effort has gone into making this a recognized holiday-including an evangelistic organization, self-appointed, to orchestrate how all federal employees should observe the Day-first something or other in May. THAT's agenda, and atheists don't appreciate it.
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    • Posted by Zenphamy 10 years, 11 months ago
      It was utter nonsense to claim that the red stripes on a candy cane represented Jesus's blood and the white represented Jesus. That's just a conflation of the old idea that a barber's pole indicated that he also bled people when that was in vogue.
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      • Posted by khalling 10 years, 11 months ago
        This story can be found all over the net. The idea was he wanted to give the children something to keep them happy and quiet during the service. that's why he chose the colors and shaped one end in a crook so that the children would all be "shepards" while the Christmas story was read and the priest would allow the candy. it's a sweet story-but the color representation is alot for a first grader to grasp. Clearly, the parent in this incident was pushing .
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  • Posted by $ AJAshinoff 10 years, 11 months ago
    I just had a protracted discussion on facebook about a debate between Bill Nye and the Creation museum founder Ken Ham. It turned into a debate about how stupid people are who believed in God. I took a neutral stance initially and then found myself defending people who have Christian faith (or any faith for that matter). This discussion was with people I scarcely know and a few I actually do know. I was attackedleft and right for merely suggesting that science didn't have all of the answers, that some of sciences "claims" have been manipulated to suit agendas, and that those with religious belief should be respected. My eventual opponents were all musicians but their days jobs were in science, accounting, business etc. It was an appalling display of narrow minded myopia that has tainted my impression of a few people I thought I knew.
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    • Posted by $ Maphesdus 10 years, 11 months ago
      While I can respect people who believe in God, I do not believe we should permit the teaching of religion in public school, especially not a rediculous religion that contradicts science and says humans and dinosaurs lived together.
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      • Posted by $ 10 years, 11 months ago
        We shall not discuss the absurdity of evolution then? Funny how science can contradict science but that's ok, but taking certain things by faith that deal with God are not?

        I do not ask that religion be taught in schools. I don't want children taught Islamic Law, Buddhism or any of the rest. Teaching that Christianity had great influences on the course of western civilization and on the founding of our nation is history - teach that. Teach them how the great universities of our country began as Theological institutes and mission organizations. Just allow our children's and our exercise of religion to not be challenged at school and stop twisting history because school administrators don't like what the truth of history reveals.
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        • Posted by $ Maphesdus 10 years, 11 months ago
          There is no aspect of science which contradicts the theory of evolution.

          The influence of Christianity on Western civilization is self-evident from studying European and early American colonial history; it doesn't need to be explicitly pointed out.

          But if you're suggesting that we teach kids that the United States government and the Constitution were based on Christian values or the teachings of the Bible, that's actually not true.
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          • Posted by CircuitGuy 10 years, 11 months ago
            It's not funny that science contradicts science. Good science invites criticism.

            The American Revolution comes after the Renaissance when a mechanistic world view began to hold sway after a thousand years of the middle ages (aka the Dark Ages). It's laughable to say superstition paved the way for our modern society.
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          • Posted by $ 10 years, 11 months ago
            Please explain how energy levels can increase, which is what is required for evolution to be a reality.

            I would suggest that by ignoring the teaching of any subject, one has diminished the influences of the material. While I understand that this IS the goal of atheists, replacing it with secular humanism does not make the practice effective or proper teaching technique. If I can't object to the teaching of secular humanism in all areas of education, why do you feel that ignoring the value of Christianity has merit? Why is it that you feel only one side should be taught? What has happened to objectivity?

            If you don't know how much of the founding of American government was based on Christian principals, you really need to broaden your horizons and stop only reading the things that agree with your world view. You just might discover you have been very, very mistaken.
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            • Posted by daneomac 10 years, 11 months ago
              "Please explain how energy levels can increase, which is what is required for evolution to be a reality."

              The sun. Our planet is not a closed system.
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              • Posted by $ 10 years, 11 months ago
                I'm talking about increased energy states, not acquired energy like
                "being warmed by the sun".

                Do you understand biochemistry or physics? Energy levels in a biologic tissue degrade, they do NOT increase. Next, thermodynamics demands that energies flow from energetic sources to lessor energetic matters. This is fundamental. In order for biological nervous actions to become more developed, their abilities to control energy must improve over time. THIS is where your entire ball of twine unravels. In real life, those levels degrade with time. Exactly the opposite of what is required.

                Sorry.
                :
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    • Posted by $ 10 years, 11 months ago
      It's always painful to have eye's forced open. Sorry friend. I hope you will find in me a person who tries to allow his faith to speak through his life. That does not mean I'll be a door mat, but I've always found that actions speak louder than words, especially hurtful words.
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      • Posted by $ AJAshinoff 10 years, 11 months ago
        I have thick skin. I wrote conservative political commentary for several years. There is absolutely no need to apologize. What surprises me is that although I believe in a God, a creator of all things, I do not press that opinion on everyone else. Being a speculative sci-fi writer I tend to keep my mind open to any number of possibilities. Science is great at reverse engineering what is but its very poor at actually creating anything from nothing at all. The blending of potential implications of both makes for some fascinating possibilities.
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        • Posted by Hiraghm 10 years, 11 months ago
          which is it? Speculative fiction writer, or sci-fi writer? Or science fiction writer?

          (yes, I was around for the Big Debate over what to call the various... adaptations of science fiction in the 70s)
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          • Posted by $ AJAshinoff 10 years, 11 months ago
            I generally take existing tech and politics and project them into the future. I would have to lean more toward the speculative fiction with strong leaning into sci-fi.
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