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The moral case for Price Gouging

Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 10 months ago to Economics
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Nobody likes to pay more for goods and services than they need to, so the title of this piece likely causes you to question my sanity. Never fear, if you read through and follow my reasoning, you will see not only that "price gouging" is moral, but that it actually will lead to greater availability of needed items at the lowest costs.

First, it is necessary to define our term - price gouging. This would be a situation whereby a seller increases the price on goods and services in response to a sudden and unpredictable shortage of said goods and services. We see this typically after a natural disaster such as a tornado, flood, hurricane, snow storm, etc. It is necessary that the situation be relatively sudden and unpredictable, otherwise a shortage would not likely occur, thus removing the ability for the seller to raise their prices since supply would be plentiful.

How do sellers of goods and services set their prices? It may come as a surprise to many that it is not on the basis of what they procured them for with some added profit. While "cost plus" pricing is rampant in governmental operations, in the free market this does not work. A purchaser of a good or service cares not a whit what you paid for it, they only care about the value that such good or service has to them. They will pay as much as they value it for, and no more. If the seller prices their goods at or below the buyer's willingness to purchase, they are likely to make a sale. The lower the price is in relation to the willing purchase price of the buyer, the higher the perceived value and the higher the likelihood of purchase. If they price them higher, the likeliness of selling goes to zero, since the purchaser does not perceive a good value in the purchase.

Thus, the seller does not in fact set the price at all, rather they choose a price based on their perception of the willingness of their potential customers to purchase at varying prices, along with the needed profit to make such business viable. For example, a seller may have an item in which there is one customer who will pay $1,000, once every year. The item costs the seller $100 to procure, so they would make $900 for a year. However, there are 1000 purchasers who would be willing to procure that item if priced at $150, which would net the seller $50,000. So the purchasers cause the price to be set at $150 instead of $1,000. So, the seller can sell one item at a tremendous profit but very low volume, or they can sell a lot at a lower profit, but a net total of a lot more.

There is another factor that also needs to be included, and that is the competition. If a good amount of profit is available, this will undoubtedly lead to others who wish to partake of some of that themselves. Thus, competition will ensue. In order for the new seller to break into the market, they will have to price their offering at or below that of the first seller, otherwise the customers will continue to purchase from the first seller, so long as that seller has sufficient supply to sell. This leads to price competition between the sellers to entice customers to purchase from them instead of the competitor.

So far, I've not discussed anything about price gouging, but having these concepts firmly understood is necessary prior to moving on. Customers set prices based on the value that they perceive of the goods and services that they desire. So long as there is sufficient supply, competitors drive down prices in order to entice customers to purchase from them instead.

What happens when a sudden and unexpected disruption happens? Because it was sudden and unexpected, none of the suppliers were able to stock ahead those goods that their customers will demand. Now there is a shortage of supply, and a demand for those goods. Suddenly the value to the customers increases as the competition switches to being between different customers instead of between different sellers. That customer that was willing to pay $1,000 now has the advantage as they will willingly fork over much more than will other customers. Again, this is the customer setting the price, not the seller, the seller merely is allocating the limited supply to those customers with a higher perception of value for those scarce goods. This is good, as not all customers can be satisfied due to limited supply and a mechanism for allocation must be established.

The question arises, then, why is supply limited? If there were more supply, then more could have been sold, and as we have seen, selling more even when at lower prices often results in a greater net revenue. But there are costs in procuring and stocking inventory of goods. There is the money that must be used to purchase the goods in the first place. This can result either in the loss of interest that could have been gained by keeping the money in the bank instead of spending it to purchase the goods. Or it may more likely be the result of paying interest to the bank for a loan that was used to pay to purchase the goods to be sold. Once the goods are procured, they also must be stored, necessitating some sort of warehouse, at a capital cost if owned, or a rental cost if leased, but in either case there is a cost to hold these goods.

There are also potential costs for obsolescence or spoilage (when newer goods are available, this makes the stored goods less desirable, or they get damaged or lose desirability to the customer due to age). The result is that procuring and holding goods incurs costs that the seller must take into account in determining how much to have and what price will result in satisfactory sales to cover all these costs plus make a profit. Procure too little, and a competitor will sell more and you will not satisfy enough customers. Procure too much, and you will have excessive costs that will make you less profitable.

By legislating that excessive price increases are not permitted, the incentive for the vendor to incur those additional costs is reduced. With less incentive, less of the potentially scarce item is available, thus ensuring its scarcity. Scarcity of needed items results in more people being harmed or enduring conditions that are harsher than otherwise would need to be. By allowing "price gouging" the first time that a shortage occurs some with the scarce goods will make a very good profit. This will entice others to want to participate in that good profit and they will make plans to participate - stock more of the goods or be able to get the goods readily. When the next event occurs that causes a shortage, now there will be more participants to provide those goods. The additional availability will reduce the overall price for all, yet still provide enough profit for those who have taken on the additional risks of the increased availability.

Let's take a very simple example. Electric generators are a rather high cost item with low continual demand but high demand after many natural disasters. The high costs and low demand typically would call for the inventory levels to be kept low. A tornado is a very sudden event and very localized. In an environment where price gouging laws are in place there is no incentive for a business to stock more generators than they would normally sell, so they don't Without any incentive to incur greater costs, the business will not do so.


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  • Posted by $ jlogajan 9 years, 10 months ago
    If you charge more than anyone else that is called gouging. If you charge less than anyone else that is called undercutting. If you charge the same as everyone else that is called collusion.
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    • Posted by 9 years, 10 months ago
      It's only gouging if you charge more than someone thinks you should be able to and they want some but aren't willing to pay your price. The thing is, the only way those prices are viable is that some others are willing to pay that price.
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  • Posted by woodlema 9 years, 10 months ago
    I am often reminded of the old fab le about the ant and the grasshopper.

    Original Fable: With a moral.
    IN a field one summer’s day a Grasshopper was hopping about, chirping and singing to its heart’s content. An Ant passed by, bearing along with great toil an ear of corn he was taking to the nest. 1
    “Why not come and chat with me,” said the Grasshopper, “instead of toiling and moiling in that way?” 2
    “I am helping to lay up food for the winter,” said the Ant, “and recommend you to do the same.” 3
    “Why bother about winter?” said the Grasshopper; “we have got plenty of food at present.” But the Ant went on its way and continued its toil. When the winter came the Grasshopper had no food, and found itself dying of hunger, while it saw the ants distributing every day corn and grain from the stores they had collected in the summer. Then the Grasshopper knew:

    “IT IS BEST TO PREPARE FOR THE DAYS OF NECESSITY.”

    Not my fault you did not buy one BEFORE you needed it. I will sell you mine for as much as I can get for it.



    Canadian version today:
    THE CANADIAN VERSION:

    The ant works hard in the withering
    heat all summer long, building his
    house and laying up supplies for the
    winter. The grasshopper thinks
    he's a fool, and laughs and dances and
    plays the summer away.

    Come winter, the ant is warm and well fed.
    So far, so good, eh?

    The shivering grasshopper calls a press conference
    and demands to know why the ant should be allowed
    to be warm and well fed while others less
    fortunate, like him, are cold and starving.

    The CBC shows up to provide live
    coverage of the shivering grasshopper,
    with cuts to a video of the ant in his
    comfortable warm home with a
    table laden with food. Canadians are stunned
    that in a country of such wealth, this poor
    grasshopper is allowed to suffer so
    while others have plenty.

    The NDP, the CAW and the Coalition
    Against Poverty demonstrate in front
    of the ant's house. The CBC,
    interrupting an Inuit cultural festival
    special from Nunavut with breaking
    news, broadcasts them singing "We Shall Overcome."

    Jack Layton grants in an interview with
    Mike Duffy that the ant has gotten rich off the backs of
    grasshoppers, and calls for an immediate tax hike on
    the ant to make him pay his "fair share".

    In response to polls, the Liberal
    Government drafts the Economic
    Equity and Grasshopper
    Anti-Discrimination Act, retroactive to the
    beginning of the summer.

    The ant's taxes are reassessed, and he
    is also fined for failing to hire grasshoppers as helpers.
    Without enough money to pay both the
    fine and his newly imposed retroactive taxes, his home is
    confiscated by the government. The ant moves to the US
    and starts a successful agribiz company.

    The CBC later shows the now fat grasshopper finishing up the last of
    the ant's food, though spring is still months away, while the government
    house he is in, which just happens to be the ant's old house, crumbles
    around him because he hasn't bothered to maintain it.

    Inadequate government funding is
    blamed, Bob Rae is appointed to head a
    commission of enquiry that will cost $10,000,000.

    The grasshopper is soon dead of a drug
    overdose, the Toronto Star
    blames it on the obvious failure of
    government to address the root causes of
    despair arising from social inequity.

    The abandoned house is taken over by a
    gang of immigrant spiders,
    praised by the government for enriching
    Canada's multicultural diversity, who
    promptly set up a marijuana grow up and
    terrorize the community.

    Government laws forbidding pricing according to the FREE market.
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  • Posted by Lucky 9 years, 10 months ago
    Robbie, your case is too long for my attention span, but i think I agree.
    Consider what is happening now in Venezuela, the government fixes prices, confiscates goods designated as hoarded, the inevitable result is shortages.
    Inevitable, you could predict the result from logic.
    It seems that governments cannot resist the popularist appeal of interfering.
    I suppose there are two kinds of objections, 1. is that government intervention always makes the situation worse, and 2. governments should not have that power anyway.
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  • Posted by LetsShrug 9 years, 10 months ago
    Supply and demand should control the price. Period. Undermining this causes hoarding that depletes the supply.
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    • Posted by Rocky_Road 9 years, 10 months ago
      Supply and demand IS what causes hoarding.
      Just ask any survivalist....
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      • Posted by LetsShrug 9 years, 10 months ago
        Think gas shortages. The topic is price gouging. Prepping happens before a shortage, hoarding happens after.
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        • Posted by Rocky_Road 9 years, 10 months ago
          How can you hoard AFTER a shortage?
          What are you hoarding... the store's rain checks???

          Survivalists know that supply will fail demand when the shite hits the fan, so they hoard the essentials.
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          • Posted by LetsShrug 9 years, 10 months ago
            If there is a gas shortage, and the price is forced to not increase then it get hoarded. If the price was allowed to increase and follow the demand people would just buy what they absolutely needed to get by, leaving more supply for others, but the gov won't allow "gouging" hence undermining their own reasoning that it isn't fair to charge more. Some might not be able to afford it. So instead it gets gobbled up by a few, leaving the rest with none.
            Stop calling preparation "hoarding". It does nothing that hurts supply and demand.
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            • Posted by sumitch 9 years, 10 months ago
              I wonder if the current thoughts of the government to raise taxes while the selling price of gasoline is low (relatively) due to the lower cost of oil might be considered price gouging of a sort or just government greed and working to fool the consumer that isn't paying attention. Conversely, I wonder what the odds are that the government will lower the taxes on gasoline when oil prices go up.
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              • Posted by 9 years, 10 months ago
                Most gasoline taxes aren't proportional to the price of the gasoline, they are a fixed amount. Thus, as the price goes down, the taxes become even more regressive - being a larger portion of the overall cost paid for each gallon.
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              • Posted by Rocky_Road 9 years, 10 months ago
                Price gouging is usually associated with a catastrophic event of some sort (at least the laws prohibiting such read that way).
                There is no catastrophic shortage of oil, and therefor, gas...it is the opposite, we have an abundance.
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                • Posted by 9 years, 10 months ago
                  True. But in this case, it could be called "Tax Gouging." Quick, while prices on gasoline have gone down let's add on some more taxes since people are used to paying much more - and since they used to be able to pay that much, they can absorb our additional taxes to bring up the cost to that former level. Of course, they would have no intention of decreasing those taxes as the price returns to earlier levels, so the burden would just keep increasing.
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                  • Posted by Rocky_Road 9 years, 10 months ago
                    This might be a dilemma for you (and me) since you support price gouging, in essence.
                    It then stands to reason that you should support tax gouging, since there will surely be more than enough people willing to pay the price?
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                    • Posted by 9 years, 10 months ago
                      I'm firmly against laws that prohibit "price gouging." I think that the free-market will take care of supplying what is needed at prices that are acceptable. Gov't meddling only mucks it all up.
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            • Posted by Rocky_Road 9 years, 10 months ago
              I'm aware of the theory that inflated prices should cause buyers to buy less, and 'leave' more for others.
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              • Posted by LetsShrug 9 years, 10 months ago
                Then why'd ya ask?
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                • Posted by Rocky_Road 9 years, 10 months ago
                  First, it is a theory.
                  Second, hoarding is proactive...not reactive as you seem to think.
                  People hoard things that they deem essential in ANTICIPATION of a future shortage.
                  This is my last post about this...I am HOARDING my energy for something that really matters! ;-)
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                  • Posted by LetsShrug 9 years, 10 months ago
                    Okay fine. To me when I hear hoard it implies mad grabbing to keep other from getting to it. I don't see preppers as hoarders..I see them as thinking ahead, it's not competitive, or a race, it's just smart.
                    But still... my gasoline shortage price gouging bit had a point!
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                    • Posted by Rocky_Road 9 years, 10 months ago
                      Darn...I said that I was through!
                      But I can't pass this one up: you pissed in your Post Toasties ONLY because you chose to use gasoline as your example.
                      NO ONE that thinks that gasoline may be gone, is going to put the nozzle into their tank, and try to figure out just how much they may need until gas returns, regardless of the price. EVERYONE will top their tank, and keep trying to squeeze in another drop, or two, for good measure.
                      I have lived in Florida all of my life, and have been through my share of storms. And I have never seen a car leave the station without gas running down the side of the car....

                      Now, I am finished! ;-)
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                      • Posted by LetsShrug 9 years, 10 months ago
                        But that's at current prices (anti price gouging rates)..if gouging was allowed would everyone be pumping in to the last drop at 50 dollars a gallon? (cards don't work and must pay cash only and I pulled that amount out of my ear). At regular rates, in an emergency, people would also be filling up every 5 gallon can they could find (which actually turns into a stupid feat quite quickly with those hard to maneuver, gov imposed safety feature riddled gas cans they have now a days) but still dipleting the supply.
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    • Posted by $ jdg 9 years, 10 months ago
      Neither hoarding nor "gouging" nor speculation is the problem. All three are good because they generate the price signals that cause the supply system to correct imbalances.

      There's only a problem when government interferes with this process (as when New York's anti-gouging law capped prices after the hurricane there). Result: the entrepreneurs who would wait in line to buy gas and resell it at a higher price stopped operating, so you had to do your own waiting in line without the option of paying someone to do it for you.

      The market gives us choices. Regulation that takes them away is evil. Always.
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    • Posted by 9 years, 10 months ago
      You miss the whole point of the article. Let me try to explain it to you. The politicians try to "protect" the citizens by imposing "anti price gouging" laws. This lowers the incentive for any supplier to take on the risk and increased costs of carrying more than a minimal supply. Thus, when a catastrophe occurs, there isn't sufficient supply available to satisfy demand. Since prices are not allowed to rise, there is still no incentive to incur the extra expense to expedite resupply. Thus, when most in need, the people are not satisfied in those needs.
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  • Posted by $ jlc 9 years, 10 months ago
    There are a couple of points that I would like to raise. First: The seller _can_ set the price: Down. If he could sell his item for $150, he could choose to sell it for $100. This is his choice.

    The second is Game Theory. If participants are anonymous, then arbitrarily raising the price is without cost to the seller; if participants are known, then that action has a cost. Example: After the 1994 Northridge Quake, a gas station in Valencia started selling its water for $5.00 a bottle (typical price $0.25). (There was no water service in Valencia at that time.) Not only was there a lot of pushback at that time, but afterwards the community spontaneously boycotted that station and it had to close.

    So while I agree that the government should keep its freaking nose out of business, one needs be aware that there is a demonstrated long-term benefit to compassionate and ethical behavior. (Two separate items: I am not saying that raising prices is unethical...but unethical behavior is something that Game Theory has examined.)

    Jan
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    • Posted by 9 years, 10 months ago
      re the Valencia gas station. I would say that the market worked in that case. The station owner took short term gain at the cost of the long term. That is another aspect of pricing in a free market.
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  • Posted by $ CBJ 9 years, 10 months ago
    There are legitimate reasons for local businesses to charge less than market-clearing prices for goods that are in short supply during a disaster. These businesses usually have long-term, mutually profitable relationships with their established customers – customers that could easily be lost forever if they perceive that these businesses “don’t really care about their customers” and are “using the disaster to line their own pockets at their customers’ expense.”

    If the choice is between short-term profit and long-term customer relationships, many businesses will rationally choose the latter.
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    • Posted by 9 years, 10 months ago
      Correct. A good business will take into account intangibles as well as direct financials (Oh, that's going to wrankle some O's here). Short term profit vs. long term standing in a community can be powerful, see the comment by Jan about the gas station in Valencia.
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    • Posted by mdant 9 years, 10 months ago
      Yes, in that case they are making a market decision which may or may not apply to everyone in every situation. However, price gouging laws apply universally regardless of whether or not there is a market reason.
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  • Posted by 9 years, 10 months ago
    The conclusion -

    In a non-price gouging scenario, a business in "Tornado Alley" would know that there is some probability that their customers may have a sudden need for generators over and above the normal demand. The ability to make higher profits would incentivize the vendor to stock more generators than they would otherwise in the hopes of gaining that higher profit by selling them when needed. Because their competitors would also have the same incentive, they too would stock more than normal. This ensures that a greater number of generators are available when they are needed and at a lower cost since supply is greater than if the higher profit were prohibited.

    The moral thing to do is to encourage supplies of scarce resources when catastrophes occur. Allowing the free-market to work, to encourage increased supply of these otherwise scarce items, albeit at a slightly higher price, is a far more moral position than is one of prohibiting "price gouging."
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    • Posted by khalling 9 years, 10 months ago
      even if a business in tornado alley does stock up, in a catastophe there is always a shortage. If the price in that area skyrockets, it is incentive for a business outside of tornado alley to ship some or all of their supply for the increased profit or simply the sales. What is the incentive to get much needed equipment supplies to the affected area otherwise. the tornado alley store owner whose inventory is wiped out immediately has no incentive to call up suppliers and pay additional transportation rates and expediting. so under price gouge laws, the shortages last a lot longer. capitalism rocks in disaster situations. every time
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      • Posted by 9 years, 10 months ago
        I think that I said that.
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        • Posted by khalling 9 years, 10 months ago
          you focused on local businesses and incentives to hold more inventory of a certain type of supply or good. I made the further point about efficiency of markets in general. take your spoilage argument. Incentive for businesses where disasters are more likely to occur (tornadoes, hurricanes) to improve infrastructure in anticipation of higher profit for high demand goods is one thing. Spoilage becomes less of an issue if prices rise and milk flies in the next day from an area not anticipating disaster but sees the opportunity for profit.
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          • Posted by 9 years, 10 months ago
            But you miss the point that a vendor is unlikely to take the risk that a disaster isn't going to occur and thus some of the product may spoil. It is the anticipation of potential disaster and the increased profit in that case that incentivizes the additional stockage. The extra costs of spoilage, increased storage, etc., are not going to be absorbed without some potential of being off-set. Thus, anti-price gouging laws serve to limit the amount of needed goods that are available, resulting in those most in need having less of what they need. That is immoral.
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    • Posted by JaxGary 9 years, 10 months ago
      Robbie, I really like this essay. You could have made your point a bit more strongly in the second paragraph about producers (sellers) setting higher prices; they do not set a higher price; they simply withhold their available supply until the price rises to meet with their desires. The generally accepted principle in economics is that consumers are sovereign, meaning consumer rule. Market prices are actually set by the consumers, as you accurately described in later paragraphs.
      “The rule of thumb” in a market system is that the market price of any good (or service) is a result of ALL of the money consumers are willing to spend on procuring it and ALL of the supply that producers are willing to part with. In simple terms, if the consumer aggregate amount of money to purchase widgets at a specific point in time is $1,000 and at that same moment in time producers are willing to part with 100 widgets, then the market-clearing price for widgets would be $10. Of course, markets are more complicated than this simple a model to explain rational human action and market conditions change with each and every transaction.
      Price gouging (sellers setting a higher than market price) is not a problem in an unfettered market because consumers will simply ignore the higher priced item and purchase a lower priced item that other non-price-gouging entrepreneurs are willing and able to bring to the market for sale at a lower price. Price gouging is a form of business suicide; it does not need government intervention to prevent it because it represents an unstable and unprofitable business strategy. Government should encourage market prices after an emergency to allow the market price to perform one of its key functions: rationing scarce goods to those who can afford to pay for them. Not every hurricane survivor in South Florida can afford to pay $5.00 for a bag of ice, but those who can pay the price will have ice and that would be better than nobody getting ice because Florida law will not permit more than a 10% markup above non-emergency prices.
      Jeb Bush, Chris Christy, and all the other so-called conservative governors clearly demonstrate their lack of conservative values when they failed to speak out against their respective state laws which restricted supply by enforcing economically unsound laws that limit a price markup after an emergency. We should all remember a picture is worth a thousand words. I do not care how many words Jeb Bush uses to tell us he is a conservative; his record ROARS LOUDLY that he not at all conservative.
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      • Posted by 9 years, 10 months ago
        Thanks. I should have put the title of price gouging in quotes, as there is no such phenomenon in a free market. There are only, as you say, market clearing prices. And prices, again as you say, are the mechanism to allocate goods.

        The other issue that I wanted to bring out is that not only are goods rationally allocated, but their availability is actually increased in the areas where they are most needed, which is the moral argument.
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        • Posted by JaxGary 9 years, 10 months ago
          Your moral argument is the key; the market system offers a fair and equitable solution to the shortage problem. However, as a direct result of "political correctness" policies, we are now supposed to seek equal outcomes rather than equal opportunities. BTW, a college student best summed up the concept of political correctness by stating that is a concept based on the false premise that one can actually pick up a turd by the clean end! 'nuff said.
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      • Posted by justin_mohr_show 9 years, 10 months ago
        JaxGary, you are so spot on with these so-called conservatives. So many of these guys are all about these government interventions in the economy. I won't vote for any of these guys that think like this. Another example would be Rick Santorum. He supports the minimum wage and thinks it should be higher! I'm sick of these economic illiterates with their populist rhetoric. I guess we could call them Bill O'Reilly types. Seriously, government get the heck out of our way and let the free market fix all the screw up caused by these "benevolent" politicians.
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        • Posted by 9 years, 10 months ago
          I used to enjoy Bill, but he's really embraced populist claptrap the last few years. I like when Stossel shuts him up (well, nobody shuts Bill up cause he just keeps on talking). Stopped watching Hannity long ago as he is nothing more than a water carrier for the R's. Love Mark Levin, as he's a pretty straight shooter. And my local guy, Mark Belling (sometimes subs for Rush) is pretty good.
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          • Posted by justin_mohr_show 9 years, 10 months ago
            One thing I will say with Levin, I think he argues like a liberal when it comes to foreign policy.(you might take issue with me a little bit) But I don't think the U.S. should be in all these country's all over the world. We're broke! We can't afford it! I want a military that stays at home and keeps us protected here. (have a strong defense) I think we're going on offense way to much. We are engaged in conflicts. (guerrilla warfare that is next to impossible to win.) All I'm saying is that the military is still government and so it is inefficient just like the rest of government. When Levin hears someone argue about reducing the built in increases to the defense budget he blows up and basically calls them unamerican. Very similar to liberal speak. Other than that, for the most part, I think he's pretty good. I wish he was more libertarian on economic issues but no one is perfect.
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            • Posted by Bob44_ 9 years, 10 months ago
              Very libertarian, but there are times when Americans and American interests need to be protected and it can't be done by folks smoking dope in their homes and waiting for someone else to get the job done. That's the problem with libertarians and why they will never be elected president.
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              • Posted by justin_mohr_show 9 years, 10 months ago
                The giant, 800 lb. elephant in the room is how do you define "American interests?" Obviously, with government everything is seen as an interest and it gets us into trouble and like the domestic economy they create more problems then they solve.
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                • Posted by Bob44_ 9 years, 10 months ago
                  I wonder if we can sit quietly and say it's their own fault when Americans are being kidnapped and beheaded? I don't think so and neither do most other Americans. Muslim terrorists have vowed to kill all non-believers. I don't think we ought to wait for that to happen. I hope you don't either.
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                  • Posted by BobFreeman 9 years, 10 months ago

                    Hmmmmmmm Wonder why dem Muslims have become American-hating terrorists.

                    HINT: They don't hate us because we're "free".

                    HINT: Dr. Ron Paul pointed out a likely reason & folks like Hannity & O'Reilly accused him of hating America.

                    The out-of-control US Stare has become the largest and most dangerous terrorist organization in the universe ... and not just dangerous to other terrorists, since the NSA, CIA, FBI & militarized local police now label YOU as potential terrorist if you object to USG terrorist tactics.
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                    • Posted by 9 years, 10 months ago
                      Just to cut this short, can you please elucidate the reason?
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                      • Posted by BobFreeman 9 years, 10 months ago
                        Perhaps yet another hint would help?

                        Suppose the Chinese military blew up your community, sent ground troops to occupy the area, murdered your wife, raped your dog littered your former neighborhood with radioactive debris, killed & maimed your friends with bombs, drones, chemical weapons, etc.. Would you tend to see the Chinese government as your enemy? If that terrorism was repeated often enough, would you mebbe eventually think of the Chinese people as your enemies?

                        Does that help any?
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                        • Posted by 9 years, 10 months ago
                          OK, now I understand what you are identifying as your postulate of the problem.

                          Here's my difficulty with that view. The 1989 take-over of the US Embassy in Tehran. The 1983 bombing of the Marine barracks in Beirut. The 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center. Each of these attacks occurred prior to any significant direct US involvement on the ground in the Middle East. The Marine barracks in Beirut were part of an international peace-keeping force, not some "foreign aggression."

                          Your excuse is just that, an excuse. It disregards history.
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                    • Posted by Bob44_ 9 years, 10 months ago
                      The greatest threat to the muslim caliphate is the US. Have you not been paying attention? Have you not witnessed the ghetto that has become muslim Europe? I think maybe your libertarian extremism is showing and illustrates why Dr. Paul had trouble convincing the voters. You have a right to your views no matter how out of touch.
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                  • Posted by justin_mohr_show 9 years, 10 months ago
                    Well then lets protect Americans here at home. Going over into other countries and looking for terrorists under every bed is not smart and tactically it's going to kill a lot more Americans. So if we continue doing what we are doing more Americans will die. I hope you don't want that either.
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                    • Posted by justin_mohr_show 9 years, 10 months ago
                      Btw, I don't want to hijack a thread about price gouging with foreign policy so I will end it here. I think we have a foreign policy that is too agressive and if you don't think that causes more enemies than I think you are sadly mistaken. How would you like Chinese military over here with bases? How would it make you feel about the Chinese? After awhile my guess is you would start bad mouthing them and want them to get the heck out of your country. I think a lot of people that hate government in our everyday lives domestically, are hypocrites when it comes to foreign policy. It seems government can do no wrong. Believe me, I once though about foreign policy like you and I believe I was wrong before. I appreciate your perspective and I encourage you to look into what happened to the Roman Empire when they over expanded. If you really want to be unsafe and you want to risk the lives of your family and children within this country then lets keep doing what we're doing. When we experience an economic collapse in this country, how many Americans can we protect from kidnappings and beheadings in other countries then? Not many. We will be worrying about that happening in our own country. We won't have a foreign policy to speak of at that point. So for the sake of the people of this country how about lets contract our empire before we are forced to. I'm not here to argue and try to prove see look I'm right and your wrong and your stupid. I don't think like that and I think you're well intentioned fellow, Bob, just like I am. I hope you will consider what I said and at least question a little bit what's happening with our foreign policy and realize we can't save everybody and what we are doing now is unsustainable. If you actually want to agree with me on some domestic issues check out my podcast when you get the chance. Justin Mohr Show on itunes. Here's a link to listen on your web browser if your at all interested. http://justinmohrshow.libsyn.com/ Bob, I think we agree more than we disagree.
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                      • Posted by Bob44_ 9 years, 10 months ago
                        I'll end this also by agreeing that our foreign policy is overly aggressive, But I can't see abandoning our friends and partners when they need a helping hand. I see it as being the same thing that I would do for my family, friends and neighbors. Thanks for the discussion.
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                    • Posted by Bob44_ 9 years, 10 months ago
                      War is a terrible thing. But guess what, we have a volunteer army. I don't want them hurt anymore than you do. But, I have always been willing to kick the crud out of a bully. We were preemptive in WWII and dropped the comb that killed many thousands. How many American lives did it save? Who knows. Sometimes you decide that you must act. Just a few of the patriots took on the British and the tories, but look what it bought, a chance for you and I to have this discussion. It didn't happen because people sat at home and did nothing. That's probably all I have to say on the subject.
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          • Posted by justin_mohr_show 9 years, 10 months ago
            Yeah, I agree with you on those guys. And I do know who Mark Belling is. I have heard him a few times when he guest hosted for Rush. I think he's ok. Bill is so arrogant and he doesn't even realize how ignorant on the issues he is! Hannity has no idea either. He has his little talking points and he regurgitates them like a parrot all the time. He never adds anything new to the debate.
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        • Posted by JaxGary 9 years, 10 months ago
          Amen.
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          • Posted by JaxGary 9 years, 10 months ago
            Justin, I followed the links to your podcasts and listened to your take on the Boom and Bust cycles - well done! Keep up with your messages, we have a lot of Keynesian professors to overcome!
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            • Posted by justin_mohr_show 9 years, 10 months ago
              Thanks Jaxs! And yes we certainly have our work cut out for sure. You should really check out the minimum wage episode and "The Power of the Entrepreneur." That last episode I mentioned I talk about Atlas Shrugged and use it to show why socialism doesn't work. It's not my entire argument, of course but it can bring some new people to the light possibly.
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              • Posted by JaxGary 9 years, 10 months ago
                Justin, I listened to both of them and I have added your show to My Favorites under Conservatives Views. You are in good company with "The Mark Levin Show" and Gary Rathbun's "An economy of One". I like you style and found some tidbits that I can use in presenting my lower division economics courses at two local community colleges.
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                • Posted by justin_mohr_show 9 years, 10 months ago
                  Fantastic! Thanks Jaxs I appreciate it. So you're an economics professor?
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                  • Posted by JaxGary 9 years, 10 months ago
                    I am not a professor. I am a part-time lecturer at one school and a part-time adjunct instructor at another. We are the pool of highly qualified, experienced, knowledgeable, and underpaid doers who provide a contrast to the pure academics who live in the theoretical world. We also represent about half of the faculty in most schools today.
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    • Posted by plusaf 9 years, 10 months ago
      Rob, there's another example right out of Florida after one of the big hurricanes some years back...

      ALL of the local supplies of portable generators were sold out and apparently suppliers could not get any more into the delivery pipeline for estimated weeks into the future.

      Some private folks and stores that happened to have some unsold inventory tried to deliver them to FL, but the State barred them from charging the old market-clearing rates (like, pre-hurricane.)

      So, faced with huge demand plus higher delivery costs of trucking the generators across possibly several state lines to Get Them To Florida, the potential suppliers.... didn't.

      Rather than get ANY generators to ANY people Ready And Willing to Pay Any Price for them, NO additional generators were available anywhere in Florida.

      Now, if you want to talk about supply, demand and government intervention, please... go right ahead... and hopefully, that situation will never affect YOU in the future.
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      • Posted by 9 years, 10 months ago
        Is that supposed to be an example counter to my essay or in support of it? Your tone seems to be one of derision, but your example is a perfect example of what happens when "anti-price gouging" laws are in place. Please clarify.
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        • Posted by plusaf 9 years, 10 months ago
          Sorry if that was confusing.
          I was trying to make the point that 'anti-gouging laws' can have the apparently counterproductive effect of completely cutting OFF the supply of wanted/needed products from the people who want or need them.

          Better?
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  • Posted by Bob44_ 9 years, 10 months ago
    Check the oil industry. Prices fluctuate daily because of supply and demand. Most other items charge whatever the market will bear. The idea that an item is worth only what it costs to produce is a communist idea, and one many American socialists believe, but then countries like Russia could not control their economy and went busted.
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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 9 years, 10 months ago
    I agree. We shouldn't even call it by a pejorative name. Letting the market set a price prevents surplus demand. It also brings in more suppliers resulting in a greater quantity supplied.
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  • Posted by Herb7734 9 years, 10 months ago
    Caveat Emptor
    Remember that? Stop whining. Be more careful at your next purchase. If you can't get it at what you consider a fair price then don't buy it. Only exceptions are life-saving medicines or procedures. Then you can question the seller's integrity, and you must bargain or borrow.
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    • Posted by 9 years, 10 months ago
      Herb: Why do you exempt what you call life-saving medicines or procedures?
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      • Posted by Herb7734 9 years, 10 months ago
        I believe that a degree of compassion is needed in the case of human life. I might modify it a bit by adding that self caused illnesses can be disregarded. In any case, I pointed out that you can question the seller's integrity, but then you must bargain (with the seller) or borrow, which are the only two options if you don't have the $$ and if the seller remains adamant. Under no circumstances did I mean to infer regulation.
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        • Posted by 9 years, 10 months ago
          On this we are going to part company. It is a hard truth, but truth nonetheless that "Life isn't fair." Some good and worthy people aren't going to be able to afford it, and some worthless louts will. That's the same with everything. A lot of really good people don't have a car (see the story recently about the guy in Detroit who's been walking the better part of 27 miles 5 days a week for years to go to work?) and some real scumbags have Mercedes E-class's. Somehow because it's health related suddenly people believe that it's only "fair" and "just" that those goods and services be regulated so as to be available to all.
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        • Posted by plusaf 9 years, 10 months ago
          "imply," not 'infer...'
          but the slippery slopieness of starting with illness and medicine is exactly what the Libs have done, and all they've done is slide everything possible down that slope to include 'em under the rubric of "compassion."

          Or as I tend to put it, "when someone plays the 'moral issue' card, it's because they've run out of logical evidence for their side."

          :)
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      • Posted by Rocky_Road 9 years, 10 months ago
        Come on, Robbie!
        What sane person would forego something that will save their life, and that they can afford, simply to 'protest' the pricing?
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        • Posted by 9 years, 10 months ago
          I read it as Herb was saying that life-saving medicines and procedures should be excepted from price regulation. I guess it could be read that he was saying that you shouldn't forgo same. That's why I asked.

          I don't think that even medicine/medical procedures should be regulated. Just look at what has happened to things like Lasik and cosmetic surgery. Both have improved tremendously with costs being held in check, and outstanding customer service.
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          • Posted by Herb7734 9 years, 10 months ago
            I always thought I had a pretty good vocabulary, but somehow, I'm not getting my point across. Let's do it this way: I DO NOT WANT REGULATION EVEN FOR MEDICINE AND PROCEDURES TO SAVE A LIFE!!! I am talking about the purveyor of those medicines or procedures to exercise compassion, but not to be forced to do so. If such compassion is not forthcoming, the recipient (customer if you will) must either bargain with the seller or get a loan. If neither of those options are available, then the prospective user of those meds or services is out of luck. Further, the reason I bring this up at all, is that I believe that it is possible for us to set up a tradition of looking after one another in order to keep the government out of our lives as much as possible. There are examples of this. There is an religious organization (the name escapes me) that does nothing but go about helping people who have experienced disasters by fixing and reconstructing damaged property. They get in, get the job done before FEMA even arrives on the scene. Everything can be handled better privately with the possible exception of militia and courts. And I'm not all that sure about militia.
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            • Posted by BobFreeman 9 years, 10 months ago
              ALL services can be provided at higher quality and lower cost if the State and its bureaucratic interventionism is not involved. ESPECIALLY the military police and the present criminal INjustice system.
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  • Posted by scojohnson 9 years, 10 months ago
    I completely agree. We can take something you see everyday - such as a bumper for a cell phone. If you are willing to 'plan ahead' and buy one on eBay or Amazon, you can get a cheap one for maybe $1.00 including shipping, up to maybe $10.00 for high quality materials & workmanship (I have a beautiful aluminum one that fits my iPhone 6 like a glove that as like $9.50 on Amazon). If you go into a Walmart or any other brick & mortar store, that same item has a convenience factor marked up and it has to earn its place in profit compared to anything else they could have in that shelf slot - so you might pay $20 - $40 for something rather substandard to average in quality. If the store was only going to mark 'everything' up say 50-100% - would that cell phone bumper be worth the effort to make 50 cents to a dollar each on? Or the shipping and unpacking and stacking of them on the shelf to maybe make $20 on an entire box of them? That store costs millions to build and millions a month in labor/maintenance/taxes - of course not.

    Likewise, some things, like sporting goods gear - may actually be quite expensive in the store, but also pretty expensive on wholesale - it tends to be made in the US, and not with child labor in Bangladesh, and the buyer (an American sportsman/woman) is willing to pay up for quality - so there may only be 20% margin in it, while a 'cheap' item wouldn't sell at all, at any price.

    Structured data cabling for buildings is also something that was once a very high level of margin (maybe 40%), but competition and the buyer's willingness to pay has been very successful at wringing every penny out of that business - today's multi-million dollar 'cabling jobs' are frequently done at something in the range of 5-7% margin. Even the waste of not completely using every spool of cable purchased for the job can have the effect of destroying any profit in it.

    Likewise, clothing tends to have a huge margin in it. Most individual pieces are in the range of $3.00 to $5.00 from the manufacturer overseas but might be $100 to $150 on the rack. This is due to many reasons - 'heavy' buyers of clothing in American shopping malls search for the 'deal'. Lets be honest, female teens & 30-somethings spend a lot of money on clothing... they have "Sale" on the brain, so artificially marking something to $100 and always having it on 'sale' at 40-50% off yields a price tag of around $60, which is often still at least a 600% margin. Its simple to analyze, virtually no clothing retailer in the US 'makes' the stuff they sell, but they all pay upwards of $20,000 a month (or much more) in rent for their space in a shopping mall - up to $100,000 a month in some cases. You can't pay for that making $10 on a pair of jeans... Sadly, the only business getting rich in retail is always the owner of the real estate involved... the lion's share of the revenue from each of the stores is going to pay for the real estate, not the staff, the supplier, or even the retailer themselves... its where the name "Black Friday" comes from, its the first day a typical US retailer is 'in the black" after operating at a loss all year.
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  • Posted by NealS 9 years, 10 months ago
    Interesting topic, is this from a bad dream you had last night? Lose interest on the money taken out of the bank, what bank are you with, mine pays so little I might as well keep it in a mason jar in the back yard? And one other factor, sometimes you can sell more by placing a big sign on the product that says, "ON SALE". "ON SALE" sometimes has as much meaning as the word "Warranty". On Sale works pretty good for my wife, she just left to get some new On Sale bedding for the new bed we just purchased yesterday.

    We ordered an adjustable bed frame with a high end foam mattress. Features are an important part for some people. Are you aware these new adjustable bed frames can be controlled from your Smart Phone? And now they even have USB charging ports, AC Outlets, Blue Tooth Speaker Systems, and even massage. Remember the last time you put in a quarter to have your bed shake? They don't come with a coin box however, that would be an add on accessory. At one reputable chain store our Split-King (that's two Singles you can push together to make a King) came to about $5100 plus tax (about 10% here). Across the street they had the same thing but it was last years model ON SALE for about $3600 and the current SALE included tax. Guess which one we bought.

    My story here is just to confirm some of the information and concepts presented by Robbie, and because I had nothing better to do right now. Does anyone know where to purchase a nice looking coin box? I'm still going to forgo the Smart Phones, I probably couldn't operate one anyway, and I'd be in a lot of trouble if one of us got folded in half during the night because of a butt dial.. Oh yes, I almost forgot to mention the Under Bed Convenience Light, I wonder what that's all about? The only thing none of them had was built in pistol safe. I wonder how many bed regulations there are from Uncle Sam?
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    • Posted by 9 years, 10 months ago
      No, my buddy Justin Mohr has been doing some interesting topics and I wanted to get this out (been thinking about it for awhile) before he beat me to it.
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      • Posted by justin_mohr_show 9 years, 10 months ago
        Robbie, that's hilarious! Yes, you did beat me to it. Like you, I have been thinking about doing a show on price gouging for some time but I like to wait and tie it in with a current news story to make the point. Well done Robbie. Looks like I will be copying you now. ;)
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  • Posted by PeterAsher 9 years, 10 months ago
    As a side note:

    Our area of the Oregon coast has one hardware store for about every 40 miles so has a large customer base per store. During the great Y2k urban legend, they sold A LOT of generators.

    As the event itself did not occur, they had to implement a policy of refusing to accept returns of unused generators.
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  • Posted by mdant 9 years, 10 months ago
    Excellent!!! It is a little long but is still the best explanation I have read. If you could somehow cut the length in half it might even work with the brain numb majority...well those that actually have an open mind that is. Most people are simply going to reject it from an emotional reaction no matter how persuasive the argument.
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  • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 10 months ago
    Price gouging is something I wholeheartedly support, but cannot do in Florida. Laws were enacted in response to price gouging for gasoline during/after the hurricanes of 2004.
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    • Posted by 9 years, 10 months ago
      Yet it occurs on a private level. Anyone who has an abundance of a scarce good will often "share their wealth," at their price, of course. ;-)
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  • Posted by BobFreeman 9 years, 10 months ago
    Yes, in a free society, prices are merely offers to sell and the CONSUMERS are king. THEY decide whether or not the sales happen by either accepting or rejecting the offered price. “Price gouging”, “cut-throat competition” are rather meaningless terms in a free-market society.

    In the State-run unfree society, the bureaucrat is king and bureaucratic interventionism, especially in the form of price controls (eg, rent, gas, etc., “Minimum Wage Laws”, “Child Labor Laws”, etc.) is ALWAYS RETROgressive and causes regressive domino effects that lead society closer to lasting poverty, war and servitude and away from lasting peace, prosperity and freedom.
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  • Posted by BobFreeman 9 years, 10 months ago
    Yes, in a free society, prices are merely offers to sell and the CONSUMERS are king. THEY decide whether or not the sales happen by either accepting or rejecting the offered price. “Price gouging”, “cut-throat competition” are rather meaningless terms in a free-market society.

    In the State-run unfree society, the bureaucrat is king and bureaucratic interventionism, especially in the form of price controls (eg, rent, gas, etc., “Minimum Wage Laws”, “Child Labor Laws”, etc.) is ALWAYS RETROgressive and causes regressive domino effects that lead society closer to lasting poverty, war and servitude and away from lasting peace, prosperity and freedom.
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  • Posted by johnpe1 9 years, 10 months ago
    well done, sir! . government controls mess up the
    productive process and cause waste. . resources
    are allocated according to a bureaucrat's wishes
    instead of customers' wishes. . now, if we could
    just fix this!!! -- j

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  • Posted by term2 9 years, 10 months ago
    Prices usually rise during unexpected shortages. Why would anyone want to keep supplies of all these things sitting around when they could ONLY sell during shortages. Of course they are going to cost more, partially to pay for the cost of uneconomically producing and storing them during times they are not needed.

    How about just stockpiling a few items that YOU might need during an emergency, and then NOT needing them at the time ? Most people know what the typical emergencies are likely to be in their geographical areas.
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