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  • Posted by BJ_Cassese 9 years, 11 months ago
    The ONLY policy a government can adopt that would not cause speculative booms and widespread collapse is to abstain from intervention. Unfortunately, that train left the station long ago (& not on the John Galt Line)
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    • Posted by 9 years, 11 months ago
      You are spot on man! Government intervention begets more government intervention. The "problems" they try to solve causes more problems. Then the government is there to be the super hero to save the day to fix the "problems" they caused in the first place!
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      • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 11 months ago
        It is the arrogance of the controllers (the Fed) who think that they can know the innumerable factors that affect the economy. They are wrong, and in so being, do not back off actions being taken. This is an arrogance typical of progressives who think that they are smart enough to know and be able to predict actions and behaviors. They are not, but their failures merely result in them saying that they didn't have sufficiently expansive control or actions. They, like the Fed who is populated by progressives, are incapable of understanding their level of hubris.
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  • Posted by khalling 9 years, 11 months ago
    the idea that Friedman was a monetarist is misleading at best. The statement he made about money growing at the same rate as the economy or a fixed amt per year, was in response to a question -and he prefaced his comments by saying there should not be a Federal Reserve. Not trying to defend everything Friedman said, but this is often misquoted. Db made it himself once. Our son, Aristo was the one to point that out. .
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    • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 11 months ago
      The value of money in an economy must grow otherwise it will stifle an economy. It if grows faster than the underlying economic growth, that leads to inflation. It is best to grow at the rate of economic growth of the overall economy. Lower money growth does not lead to deflation, rather to stagnation of the economy. Low interest rates leads to deflation, as a consequence of lack of saving, leading to low investment and reduced consumption. Increasing efficiency helps to reduce inflation as well as stave off the most destructive aspects of deflation (if a provider can reduce their price but maintain a profit margin and maintain their workforce, there will still be consumers for goods).
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      • Posted by 9 years, 11 months ago
        Robbie, economic growth is not inflationary. Naturally, deflation occurs because as we find better and more efficient ways to produce, prices come down. And the money supply never needs to be messed with. Depending on what's going on in the economy either the purchasing power of a currency increases or decreases. Btw, deflation is not scary and lead to some sort of collapse. I don't know about you but i love to buy things when they're cheaper.
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        • Posted by airfredd22 9 years, 11 months ago
          Having lived under Communism/Socialism in East Germany in my childhood years, I ultimately learned to understand so called planned economies that were in effect in all Communist countries.

          The reason that free economies function well is that they have an additional requirement for economies to function besides supply and demand. That vital ingredient is marketing, better known as advertising. These marketing companies create a demand for products that consumers never dreamed of and thereby giving incentive to manufacturers to create competition for such products.

          The cell phone and computer industries are the greatest example of that. As little as 30 plus years ago neither industry existed as a viable market and today we wonder how we ever lived without these products. Supply, demand and marketing is what is always the driving force. Furthermore the pricing of these products will always get lower as cdompetition increases.

          Fred Speckmann
          commonsenseforamericans@yahoo.com
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          • Posted by 9 years, 11 months ago
            I love that perspective you give man. How old were you when you left East Germany as a kid? I could possibly have you as a guest on my show. I would love that kind of perspective on things.
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        • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 11 months ago
          I didn't say that economic activity was inflationary - but monetary growth greater than economic growth typically is.

          Reduced costs due to improved efficiency is always a good thing. It leads either to increased profits and resulting additional investment or increased pay to workers, or to lower prices, all of which are good and a virtuous cycle. True deflation is caused by lack of demand causing reductions in investment and labor. That in turn causes even lower demand and can be a vicious cycle. That is never good.
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          • Posted by 9 years, 11 months ago
            Ok i can tell we definitely don't agree on this. That's ok these forums are about the exchanging of ideas. Ok and what I'm saying is that growth is not inflationary at all. Deflation can never lead to a spiraling collapse because as costs are decreasing so too are input costs for businesses, so now they can still make a profit at the lower prices. Further, one very important reason why a spiraling deflation can never occur is because of time preference. Yeah sure prices are getting cheaper and people argue consumers will wait to purchase items. But because of time preference people favor having something now, as opposed to later. Look at electronics. Why on earth would someone buy a laptop, tv or cell phone if those same products will be much cheaper next year? It's because of time preference. Look at people today, they can't hardly wait to go spend money they haven't even earned yet.

            For instance, you might say look at the great depression and how prices kept falling. But with the great depression prices were falling but the government got in the way and didn't let wages fall with them! If the government wouldn't have stepped in people still could have had jobs. Because if prices and wages both go down then people really aren't worse off after all. When the government wouldn't allow wages to come down they actually made those people worse off because now these people didn't have a job at all! Now how are they suppose to feed their families? Robbie, I think you will enjoy my next podcast coming out on Tuesday because I talk about how horrible the minimum wage is and how it hurts the people it's suppose to help. (likely story of government policies right? haha) I appreciate the friendly debate. And actually I believe it's my episode called, "Will the FED keep printing money" I talk about deflation and kind of what I mentioned above. I believe it's that one.
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            • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 11 months ago
              Yes, I appreciate your perspective. I'm no economist, just a dumb mech eng, but I've read up on Austrian economics as well as Keynes (evil man) and Smith. I'm much more in the Austrian camp, but also take into account demographics. I think that Harry Dent has done some fantastic work on how life stages and spending patterns affect economics as much or more than the money supply and such. In that vein, many say that Clinton and/or the Rep congress were responsible for the boom in the '90's, but it seems demographically that you would have had to really botch things up to have had a non-booming economy. Likewise, the bust in '08 was predicted long ago by Dent due to demographics (heck, even I predicted it to happen in '10 back in the early '90's during one of my MBA courses as a consequence of the shift of investment in-flows vs. out-flows due to the BB gen entering retirement age).

              What baffles me is how so much money can have been shoved into the economy without inflation. The only answer that I have is that we should have been experiencing deflation, and this has countered that maintaining an equilibrium - for now. Thoughts?
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              • Posted by 9 years, 11 months ago
                Great stuff Robbie. I would argue that we do indeed have inflation. Take a look at many goods you buy, like for instance with my deodorant. I have noticed the sticks of deodorant you buy actually have less ounces in them, same goes for cereal, chips and many other goods. They're shrinking the size and you're still paying more than before! Certainly, the inflation rate is much higher than what the FED thinks (1.7% inflation rate). However, I do think inflation will be much more than it has thus far. With all this money printed into the system has distorted our economy and is causing a huge misallocation of resources. This cost to society will be huge and will end in a gigantic bust that will make 2008 look like child's play.
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                • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 11 months ago
                  Yes, that is true. I try to match prices by cost per ounce/pound/item/etc. instead of just package. And yes, prices are increasing but not at the rate that I would have expected from the amount of money dumped into the economy.

                  I'm scared that you're correct about the coming bust. While I generally like large busts, this one is not going to provide any pleasure at all. ;-}
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      • Posted by $ HeroWorship 9 years, 11 months ago
        Robbie - Are you familiar with George Resiman's book Capitalism? He makes a reasonably clear case that lower money growth does not lead to a stagnation of the economy. If you care - his arguments get to the heart of the issue.
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        • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 11 months ago
          No, I'll need to look into it. The only way I could see that being true would be for the "velocity of money" to increase.

          Is that George Reisman? Can't find a Resiman with an economics book.
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          • Posted by $ HeroWorship 9 years, 11 months ago
            Yes - Reisman - exuse my typo.

            http://mises.org/library/capitalism-trea...

            or buy it on amazon - Chapter 12 and 16 especially, although you might find chap 19 on Gold vs. Inflation applicable.

            Personally, I consider Reisman to be a fundamental text. You either know his arguments because they make sense of things, or your know his arguments well enough to refute them.
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            • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 11 months ago
              Thanks. Got a copy from the library. I'm in for a little "light" reading over the next few weeks. And if an elevator suddenly needs a counterweight, I'm ready to step up. ;-)
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  • Posted by BJ_Cassese 9 years, 11 months ago
    No comment I can make would be better than to refer all to Capitalism: The Unkown Ideal by Ayn Rand. For those unfamiliar with it, you're welcome. There's no better text or lecture on the topic. (note: I spent 4 years getting my education in Economics, and this one book was better than all of my studies prior to it)...
    I'll still make comments, but Ayn's work is the best
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    • Posted by $ jdg 9 years, 11 months ago
      It's not bad, but I found it too preachy and not descriptive enough. Mises' "Human Action" is the only book on economics anyone should ever need.
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    • Posted by dbhalling 9 years, 11 months ago
      Interestingly enough Rand is very clear that she is not defining a science of economics in Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal, but explaining the moral basis for Capitalism.

      In my opinion there is no school of economics that is consistent with Rand's ideas, which is why she had such a tenuous relationship with so many free market economists. I am writing a book that I believe defines or at least points the way to a school of economics that is consistent with Rand.
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      • Posted by wiggys 9 years, 11 months ago
        I believe that Rand was so brilliant that had she put her mind to anything she would have been successful with respect to economics has she decided to study it further she would have surpassed even Mises',and he would have taken notice of her. As I read more and more of her work to include answers to question posed to her in interviews or after she has given a talk at places like the FHF she was striving to be a teacher. I read more than once she simply did not pay attention to her critics because they were simply not interested in learning, so why bother. I look forward to reading your book.
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      • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 11 months ago
        Morality must be the basis for all social sciences.

        How do you see the Austrian School (not the people, but the economic principles) being inconsistent?
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  • Posted by 9 years, 11 months ago
    Well, Friedman wasn't a supporter of the gold standard. So certainly he wasn't an Austrian. I get your points tho.
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    • Posted by khalling 9 years, 11 months ago
      justin, 1st, welcome to the Gulch. Also, in the future, you can respond to comments by hitting "reply" underneath the comment. let's people know you're talking to them, otherwise they may not get an email prompt. :) ok, here's the link:http://reason.com/blog/2013/08/12/qe-phooey-milton-friedman-thought-there

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  • Posted by jsw225 9 years, 11 months ago
    All real economic growth comes from investment of real, hard earned money. For example, a business can earn a million dollars. Basically, they can do one of three things. They can spend it. They can invest it in themselves. And lastly, they can stick it in a bank account. Remember, that every dollar spent in the economy changes hands a further 2.3x, thus driving up the economy. Also remember that when you stick money in a bank, and the interest rates are normal, the bank loans out this money to other people and businesses. Theoretically, if every person who got a loan from the bank turned around and stuck it in the bank, $1 can drive a further $9 into the money supply. But this is unrealistic to expect this much.

    All of this is based on the assumption that every single dollar flowing through the economy was properly earned, properly spent, or properly loaned out.

    The largest driver of booms and busts is the Federal Reserve. The Fed, a private profit-seeking institution, basically loans out money for a really low interest rate. Sometimes even a negative interest rate, basically giving money away. This money isn't real money as I highlighted in the assumption above.

    This has several negative aspects. First is that it makes it economically unfeasible for Banks to loan out money to people and businesses. They can't possible shoulder the risk for such a low rate. Second, banks offer little to no interest rates for saving money there, meaning that any money saved loses "value" to inflation. Third, and most importantly, it means that there is a ton of "unearned" money flowing through the economy.

    And since the laws of supply and demand reign supreme, even with money, the Federal Reserve Money creates a boom. The value of whatever good, service, commodity or item drives higher and higher until it either far out paces the increase in money supply, or people who are dealing in real money get shut out of the market entirely. Then the bust happens.


    The problem comes after the bust. The Federal Reserve believes it has to fix the bust, and resort to methods that caused the boom in the first place. Thus begins the cycle.
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    • Posted by 9 years, 11 months ago
      I agree with most of what you have to say here but I just disagree on one small part. When you mention that money changing hands drives the economy up. That logic says that it's spending and "demand" that create economic growth. But it's not. It is production that is key. People can change money all they want but if there aren't anymore goods in the economy then there isn't any growth. "Real money" is a commodity. So when your trading with a commodity and they're more goods available then the consumer is better off and there is also more savings in the economy because of increases in production.
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      • Posted by jsw225 9 years, 11 months ago
        If my company makes and sells 100 units of X, perfectly meeting demand, does making 100,000 make me an instant billionaire?

        Of course not. Production doesn't fuel growth. In fact, acting on that belief just leads to a misallocation of resources. I.E. All the parts, materials, utilities and labor were used on this, but won't be getting paid.

        It's supply and demand that drives the economy, most importantly increasing demand. The United States Economy of the early 1940's had, arguably, the greatest production of any country and any time, ever. Yet the economy didn't thrive. It stayed the same. Why? Simply put because they weren't making anything the US Citizen could or would buy.

        Saying that production, no matter what the source, is the key to a growing economy is akin to saying that Spending is the key to a growing economy, no matter what the source of money is. The problem with that is neither production, or spending is free.

        Simply put because there was no demand
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        • Posted by 9 years, 11 months ago
          Ok I didn't make myself clear because yes you're correct, just producing anything doesn't just magically make you money, people have to want it. And the reason production is key is because in order to trade with someone you must for produce something first! You can't just demand you want stuff. You must have something to trade. So the key is producing things that people want. In a free market, people get rich by providing things that people want and are efficient at doing so. You can demand things all you want but if you have nothing to trade what's it matter? Did you have a demand for ipads 10 years ago? No, because they didn't exist. The Entrepreneur is what makes our life better by producing things that we want or don't know we even want yet and their new products/innovations create their own demand.
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  • Posted by ObjectiveAnalyst 9 years, 11 months ago
    Hello justin_mohr_show,
    Yes. The Keynesians do not respect the boom and bust cycle. Their hubris allows them to believe they can meddle in the economy. Unfortunately, in so doing, they prolong the bust cycles. When Obama says he must come in and “mop up the mess,” in a nutshell, he and those that think as he does do not allow for the necessary corrections by virtue of “creative destruction.”
    Regards,
    O.A.
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  • Posted by flanap 9 years, 11 months ago
    The Bible has a lot to say about economics, so perhaps read that as well, then filter the rest of man's opinions.
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