Objectivist Essays

Posted by XenokRoy 11 years, 1 month ago to Politics
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Does anyone know if there is still publications like the objectives essays that were captured in books like Capitalism the unknown ideal?

I would love (and pay well) for some research about why Worldcom and Enron failed and why the laws that were put in place to "stop" it from happening again wont work. Or what ahppened with the suit against boing to keep them from moving. Or what Core education guidlines are likely to miss educate our kids on... point is there is a lot out there and little scientific and well researched data to combat it with. Such essays would be very useful knowledge to have at hand when talking with a person who is not yet brain dead, but headed that way in favor of larger government. It would provide very useful talking points backed with good data. Such articles are in dire need of being researched and written. I know of no such publication but would love to buy it if one exists.


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  • Posted by vandermude 11 years, 1 month ago
    You would be better off rethinking the objectivist essays in "Capitalism the Unknown Ideal" I used to love those essays but found out that Rand and her followers faked reality. North and Stanford (railroad tycoons) got where they are because they manipulated Congress for their own ends. The rest of the Robber Barons got where they were because they sent thugs to put down the labor movement. You need to get a balanced view of history before you get a balanced view of today. Rand faked reality, and that is inexcusable. If Objectivism is to survive, it is not as a quasi-religion as it is now (built on blindness to reality) but as a philosophy that is empirical - it looks at what actually works for society and its members, not on some idealism that is a fake.
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    • Posted by khalling 11 years, 1 month ago
      You need to reread history. To the extent that the so-called "robber barons" bribed Congress, it was for one of two reasons. 1. needed to get immoral permits or permissions from politicians or 2. politicians promised them an advantage that should not be allowed under the law. The ultimate immorality rests with the politicians of the time(s).
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      • Posted by vandermude 11 years, 1 month ago
        You are justifying immoral acts by an "end justifies the means" argument. Certainly something that Hsnk Rearden would never do. Now consider this: Stanford played that game, then monopolized the railroads so that the average farmers were driven into bankruptcy to get their produce to market. Don't tell me about re-reading history. And don;t excuse the robber barons because the politicians are worse. That is a race to the bottom.
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        • Posted by dbhalling 11 years, 1 month ago
          You blame businessmen and capitalism for the evils of Socialism. If you had a shred of moral decency, instead of complaining about the corny capitalist railroad situation in California, which was the result of GOVERNMENT, not free markets and not businessmen, you would complain about Tammany Hall, the Corn Laws, Union cronyism which allow union members to assault, maim and kill with impunity, the collectivism of agriculture under Stalin which killed millions, the Great Leap Forward of Mao which killed tens of millions or the DDT fraud that killed over 100 million. You sir are dishonest and moral corrupt.
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          • Posted by vandermude 11 years, 1 month ago
            No, I blame businessmen and capitalism for the evils of Capitalism. Tammany Hall, Union cronyism and Communism are certainly evil, but that does not hide the excesses of the Gilded age. You may consider me dishonest and corrupt, but you are certainly blind..
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            • Posted by dbhalling 11 years, 1 month ago
              You are dishonest. Capitalism and business provide value, even if the price is higher than it should. Tammany Hall, Union Cronyism provide no value they are pure theft. Communism is provides a quick route to death. The Gilded Age was a period in which the US had and increased its lead as having the highest living standard in the world. You complaints are misplaced and you did not address this issue. The problems of the period were because of too much government interfering with the market.

              By the way the complaints of Teddy Roosevelt about the trusts were clearly a cry for crony socialism. Every major commodity that TDR complained about dropped by 90% in cost over the decade leading up to the anti-trust legislation. This was not about protecting the consumer, but pure cronyism, not surprising as TDR was a committed socialist.
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              • Posted by vandermude 11 years, 1 month ago
                Wonderful. You think your denunciation of what I said is equivalent to a response. If you disagree with me, give me facts, not opinions.
                Although that period had an unprecedented growth in living standard, it was also a period where the difference between the rich and the poor was the greatest. There's something wrong with that.
                And, as far as protecting the consumer, Teddy Roosevelt also gave us the FDA and the Pure Food and Drug Act.
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                • Posted by dbhalling 11 years, 1 month ago
                  You remind me of a speech by Margret Thatcher. You would rather have everyone wallow in the mud, than allow some people to become wealth. The facts are overwhelming capitalism (natural rights) is the only thing that lifted man out of the Malthusian Trap. The FDA is a disaster that has caused untold damage to millions of people. You fail to acknowledge the hidden costs, but want to count all benefits by those favored by government. This is well known fallacy. You are either uninterested in the truth or incredibly ignorant.
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                  • Posted by vandermude 11 years, 1 month ago
                    I think that this discussion has reached its conclusion. Neither of us can convince the other and the facts of reality are not enough to make a difference. Perhaps we are blinded by are own beliefs.
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        • Posted by dbhalling 11 years, 1 month ago
          Here is what Ayn Rand said about this:
          All the evils, abuses, and iniquities, popularly ascribed to businessmen and to capitalism, were not caused by an unregulated economy or by a free market, but by government intervention into the economy. The giants of American industry—such as James Jerome Hill or Commodore Vanderbilt or Andrew Carnegie or J. P. Morgan—were self-made men who earned their fortunes by personal ability, by free trade on a free market. But there existed another kind of businessmen, the products of a mixed economy, the men with political pull, who made fortunes by means of special privileges granted to them by the government, such men as the Big Four of the Central Pacific Railroad. It was the political power behind their activities—the power of forced, unearned, economically unjustified privileges—that caused dislocations in the country’s economy, hardships, depressions, and mounting public protests. But it was the free market and the free businessmen that took the blame. “America’s Persecuted Minority: Big Business,”
          Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal, 48
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          • -2
            Posted by vandermude 11 years, 1 month ago
            The problem I have is that you need to check your premises. If they do not match reality, they need to be discarded, Premise: an unregulated capitalist economy is best. Truth: The Great Recession of 2009 was lessened in Canada because the banks were under tighter regulation up there. Carnegie underpaid his workers, which means he overpaid his "personal ability" at the expense of the people he employed. We are living in a new gilded age where there are too many people being paid at the poverty line and the top people are taking it all. The best solution to this is a stronger union movement and a government under a progressive like Teddy Roosevelt to rein in their power.
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            • Posted by dbhalling 11 years, 1 month ago
              What a bunch of nonsense. In fact multiple studies have shown that more bank regulation leads to more financial meltdowns. See Chp. 4 of the Fraser Institute report http://www.fraserinstitute.org/uploadedF...
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              • Posted by vandermude 11 years, 1 month ago
                Well, Chapter 4 certainly has some provocative analysis. I note that their analysis spans a wide variety of economic systems, which makes it hard to do a comparison. But it is important that we should not be blinded by our theories. Reality is the final arbitrator..Whether or not regulation works should be determined by the econ omic studies, not by blind faith.
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                • Posted by dbhalling 11 years, 1 month ago
                  Reality is so clear on point that if you open your eyes you would see this. Regulation does not work because it limits the fundamental tool of man's survival - his mind
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                  • Posted by vandermude 11 years, 1 month ago
                    You have stated this by fiat. Can you give a logical argument to support your claim? For example, I could claim that regulation, if done correctly, is supported by scientific studies of what is the most effective action in a certain situation. This does not limit a person's mind - instead it leverages the minds of many. Now we have to ask which regulations are done correctly and which are boneheaded - but that is the topic for another debate. My question to you - by what reasoning to you claim that regulation limits the mind?
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                    • Posted by dbhalling 11 years, 1 month ago
                      Open your eyes. Check out the Economic freedom index. You are not serious you are a Socialist Troll
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                      • Posted by vandermude 11 years, 1 month ago
                        I am not a troll. I just want to have a rational discussion on the facts. There are many analyses and indices and they all have to be considered. I admire Rand's contributions but I think that there is more to it than what she said.
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                        • Posted by dbhalling 11 years, 1 month ago
                          A rational discussion has to start with the facts. Not blaming business for what government does. Not ignoring the reality of the affects of economic freedom or lack thereof, see http://www.heritage.org/index/. A rational discussion does not include the statement that Rand "faked" reality. A rational discussion cannot include shifting the blame for a crony socialist system from the source - incorrect, immoral laws to the businessmen, even if those businessmen were immoral for taking advantage of them. The ultimate source of the problem was the law and the government, not the businessmen.

                          Rand did not condone the actions of these railroad tycoons. This is clear from the essay and clear from AS - see James Taggart. But you have tried to use this example to condemn capitalism. Well this is not Capitalism. You have complained about income inequality. This is fine when it is the result of force (government cronyism as in the US today) but is an outrageous and immoral statement when it is part of a voluntary free market. In the case of government coercion, everybody suffers except a few elite, but in the case of a free market everyone prospers, just some more than others

                          Ir you want a rational discussion clearly delineate your points. Don't blame capitalism for greedy people, they exist under all forms of government. Don't blame a secondary cause, when there is a primary causes.
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            • Posted by curtswanson1 11 years, 1 month ago
              The reason the workers were under paid was because the supply of workers was high and the number of jobs low. The solution is found in a free market that creates more jobs, and therefore higher pay, and therefore greater upward mobility for the workers and affordability of a higher education. Unlike government mandates, that have admirable intentions, the free market produces economic advancements that offer true upward mobility.
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            • Posted by CircuitGuy 11 years, 1 month ago
              How do you work out that some participants were "overpaid" while others were "underpaid"? By one definition, if everyone involved was making willing trades, everyone was receiving the market price.

              If unions keep willing sellers and buyers apart, by the market definition those selling labor are being "overpaid".

              I agree with the goal spreading the wealth around. Maybe labor unions could play role. Hank Rearden's factory was a union shop, BTW.

              My point is labor unions and progressive policies alone won't solve the problems. I'm fine with progressive taxes and giving money to the poor. We can help people become more productive. The only thing that will make a big difference, though, is when they actually produce something other people value, something people are willing to trade for. The progressive taxes alone hardly put a dent in the problem.
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              • Posted by khalling 11 years, 1 month ago
                progressive taxation based on income is is punitive and inefficient. There is no causal relationship between levels of taxation and levels of poor. That alone should turn you off supporting such a disastrous policy.
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              • Posted by dbhalling 11 years, 1 month ago
                CG, there is absolutely no evidence that progressive (socialist) policies or progressive taxes help the poor. There overwhelming evidence for anyone who is willing to open their eyes, that free market (natural rights) policies have and do lift people out of poverty. To push a socialist agenda is to push an anti-man agenda.
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              • Posted by Hiraghm 11 years, 1 month ago
                Isn't Pennsylvania a closed-shop State?

                I don't see how anyone can be "fine" with unjust progressive taxes that punish productivity.

                I'm glad you're fine with giving money to the poor; I'll take all you have, thanks.
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              • Posted by vandermude 11 years, 1 month ago
                I absolutely agree with you. The question is - what has the sciences of economics, sociology and psychology shown that maximizes this? Simple ideals and concepts lead to sub-optimal solutions. Now on to the hard part - what works in reality?
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                • Posted by CircuitGuy 11 years, 1 month ago
                  Yes. And we have to define working. If the result is higher growth with the benefits going to wealthy, that's bad because the marginal utility of wealth decreases. OTOH if you have 2% higher growth over a century, the difference in production is staggering.

                  This is mostly an issue I don't worry about b/c I believe gov't has limited ability help the needy and limited ability to stifle growth. Politicians will tell you they have a good job-growth policies, but I think most of it is individuals finding solutions to problems. Those people will get the job done regardless of what gov't does. Gov't and bankers are two fields that act as if they are totally behind everything in the economy; they're wrong about that.
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            • Posted by CircuitGuy 11 years, 1 month ago
              I do not think it's that simple. We can blame the financial crisis on too much or not enough regulation. I suspect the problem was too many things being tacitly guaranteed by the gov't. The gov't needs to be clear about what it's regulating (deposit account) and what it's not (supposedly money market funds investing in short term paper).
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              • Posted by vandermude 11 years, 1 month ago
                The biggest problem with the government is that both the politicians and the bureaucracy are run as if they are quasi-religions, instead of being reality based. Every politician, when they make a claim or advocate a stance should be required to present data that supports what they say, and that their data is not skewed or fantastical. Every bureaucrat who makes a regulation or an appropriation should be audited to determine if that regulation or appropriation is worthwhile. We need accountability. There is a tremendous amount of waste in laissez faire economics too. Both are wasteful and need each other to balance their excesses. Together they are better than just one or the other.
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                • Posted by CircuitGuy 11 years, 1 month ago
                  I agree with all of this EXCEPT I don't think the gov't runs by politicians pursuing an ideology. Their supposed ideologies change. Self-serving rent-seeking behaviors emerge. It is difficult (not impossible) for the gov't to run efficiently as you describe. My wife has a master's in gov't administration and was an auditor for the WI legislature for 5 years. She has explained to me how difficult it is to apply scientific and empirical elements to gov't programs.

                  I agree with the tenor of what you're saying, but more and more I see gov't not doing the job it sets out to do. Once you start a spending program, it's hard to stop it. The inertia doesn't come from ideology; that would be better; it comes from all the people in the bureaucracy who are resistant to change.

                  I truly believe you're on the right track in saying you won't apply one model alone to any real-world system.
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                  • Posted by vandermude 11 years, 1 month ago
                    You have expressed this well. I wish we were all trying to make the world a better place, both capitalists and bureaucrats, but in reality, we know that this is not true. The best of us, though, are trying to make this world a better place. I want to take what each of us contribute - who are truly working for a better world - and make an amalgam that is stronger than each pure element. Ayn Rand did her part by warning that a collectivist mentality is a recipe for disaster. We also need to recognize that unbridled selfishness does not work either, no matter how rational each selfish actor is. There is no evidence that we just don't see the big picture. There has to be a balance between the individual and society. The trick is to identify the strengths and weaknesses of each and improve the strengths and mitigate the weaknesses.
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    • Posted by CircuitGuy 11 years, 1 month ago
      Suppose certain business tycoons were corrupt and manipulated Congress. Suppose they were violent with their labor unions. Suppose Rand mistook a James Taggart for a Dagney Taggart.

      How does that mean she faked reality?
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      • Posted by Hiraghm 11 years, 1 month ago
        "Suppose they were violent with their labor unions."

        You gotta warn me before saying stuff like that... now I gotta go take a cold shower...
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      • Posted by vandermude 11 years, 1 month ago
        No. Rand faked reality by not testing her theories against reality. The is a saying in engineering: "In theory, there is not difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is." She made theoretical pronouncements that just do not square with reality. One of the worst is that laissez-faire economics is better than any other system. Theoretically, this seems to be true. but in practice, this is woefully wrong. Another case is her "Introduction to Objectivist Epistomology". This was written as if Aristotelian Logic was the last word in epistomology. It is not. She was completely unaware of at least 150 years of intellectual development in this field. People should not quote Ayn Rand as if she is a religious prophet. Every idea she had, not matter how obvious, should be put to the test.
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        • Posted by LetsShrug 11 years, 1 month ago
          I would never quote a religious prophet (cuz, lord knows all of their theories have been tested in reality....for example: heaven)... and that was an insult to Rand, by the way (but it's okay because she wouldn't mind).
          Laissez faire wasn't Rand's idea:
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laissez-fai...
          Do you know of a better economic system?
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          • Posted by vandermude 11 years, 1 month ago
            A mixture between laissez-faire and socialism seems to work the best.
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            • Posted by 11 years, 1 month ago
              I realize its been a week and half since this was posted but I just have to respond.

              The best mixed economies that has ever existed have been the one built by the German Socialist National Workers Party. The result was one of two that a mixed economy will always eventually achieve.

              The US did not experience a financial collapse until after we started the move to mixed economies. Before that we were the phenom that changed the world. Why did we change it in so many ways? The answer is simple, freedom and free agency were available in greater quantities than it had been ever before or since in the world.

              Consider the two systems in a simpler light from the philosophy it has at its core.

              Mixed Economy
              With a core principle that states in action if not in word: You can achieve to much, have to much, be to rich, be to good at what you do.

              Free Market
              You can be as good at something as you mind and actions allow you to be.

              In the first system your punished for greatness in the second you simply have property rights.

              Before you respond consider a few things.

              1. You own a house, a farm... and you have to pay a lease to the government every year or they come take it away. In a free market economy this tax is reprehensible and could not be put in place. In a mixed economy your land you paid for is leased, and if the lease is not paid you loose your land. Do you really own it?

              You build up a company and dominate your market because your that much better than the rest in your field. The government steps in and breaks you up, and tells you to sell of some of the pieces or you have to let others run parts of it.... do you really own your business if the government can do this to it?

              You have an Inn and restaurant next to a national park. You have a lease to use some of the land in the national park for recreation (ATVing, hiking, horseback ridding....) and the lodge and restaurant are on property you own. The government shuts down and they decide that since you operate on government property you must shut down. When you refuse they put a full force of federal forest and law enforcement on your parking lot turning your customers away. Do you own the lodge or does the government? Who controls the property and who does not?

              Property rights and a mixed economy cannot exist together. Without property rights you own nothing, not even yourself.

              When you say a mixed economy seems to work lets just to where it eventually leads as it did in the case of the Nazi. You will eventually become a slave under the government that operates it, as nearly every person in the world is today, to some degree, of the government under which they live.

              So ultimately if you opt for the mixed economy you opt for slavery under the government. You opt for a return, with some variations, to the dark ages with feudal lords (bureaucrats who set policy in different areas) and an arching roman catholic church that is beyond reproach, not because its god this time around but because its the will of the people. Governments all over the world are moving to the very model that provided the dark ages to us. Some deviation is there, but at its heart is a mixed economy between freedom and some form of collectivism.
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            • Posted by LetsShrug 11 years, 1 month ago
              According to what reality?
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              • Posted by vandermude 11 years, 1 month ago
                I am not aware of any society where a pure laissez-faire system has worked. The most successful societies that I know of are in North American and Europe, where a combination is in effect. These are my facts. Do you have an alternative reality?
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                • Posted by LetsShrug 11 years, 1 month ago
                  Without researching.... it's never been allowed to work! There was a small time when the US came close, Late 1800's/early 1900's, and businesses flourished, until the gov got involved. I don't have time to check these dates etc. How can you test it when the gov keeps interfering? Doesn't it stand to reason though, based on... well, reason? Gov intervention always mucks things up where freedom and profit and is involved (and education and property rights yada yada yada).
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                  • Posted by vandermude 11 years, 1 month ago
                    Well it stands to reason that something that is a hypothetical has not been proven in reality. You will never get a pure theoretical idea in the real world. The best you can do is with what you get. So you really need to look at what has been allowed to work and not wish for a pure world that never existed. Government intervention mucks things up. Human stupidity mucks things up too. Bad weather, bad luck, disease, bad timing, economics, the phases of the moon, you name it keep interfering. What has worked in practice? That's what I'd like to know.
                    “When I disagree with a rational man, I let reality be our final arbiter" - Ayn Rand
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        • Posted by CircuitGuy 11 years, 1 month ago
          Because a practical application of it doesn't work does not invalidate the theory. Sometimes in engineering you know things are going on that we can't model, but you still accept the theory. I haven't read her stuff beyond AS and Fountainhead.

          One issue we may be having is what "better" means. Not everyone agrees what working better looks like.

          I agree with not applying Ayn Rand's theories blindly. Have you read Fountainhead?
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          • Posted by vandermude 11 years, 1 month ago
            Yes, I have read most of what Ayn Rand has written, including the Fountainhead. I agree with the spirit of what she was trying to accomplish, but I am aware of her faults. I hate that she and her followers tried to turn her philosophy into a religion. As I heard one her of her followers say: There are no other Objectivists: Ayn Rand was the only Objectivist and everyone else was a student of Objectivism (I hear that from one of her followers back in the 70's). I found that too many followers of her denounced any criticisms of her as if the critics were apostates, and I am aware the Rand herself set this up by her own actions by excommunicating Nathaniel Branden - who actually had a lot of good things to contribute in the field of psychology. Philosophy is not religion, and therefore unlike religion, has these characteristics: (1) philosophy is always in the process of change (2) philosophy is always right, to the extent that it reaches new truths and (3) philosophy always wrong to the extent that it has not approached an unobtainable ideal of absolute truth.

            Here is an example of where Ayn Rand fell short. I have always felt that the movie The Fouintainhead is one of the worst movies I have ever watched - and the reason why is because Ayn Rand herself wrote the screenplay. Anyone who would watch the movie and not have read the novel would be totally lost as to the motivations of the main actors because a movie can only portray pictures and expressions. But a novel can express the inner thoughts and feeling of the protagonists. Rand's screenplay does not express this inner life - as a screenplay, it is impossible, so the movie fails. Ayn Rand herself violated the rule that Howard Roark expressed in the first chapter of the Fountainhead:
            "Here are my rules: what can be done with one substance must never be done with another. No two materials are alike. No two sites on earth are alike. No two buildings have the same purpose."
            Well she violated her own rule by doing in a movie what she did in a novel.
            I don't mind Ayn Rand her failures. She was human and fallible like the rest of us. What I do not like is that she has been turned into a God.
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            • Posted by CircuitGuy 11 years, 1 month ago
              People who hold another person up as sacred did not get the point I got out of her books.

              I have not seen the Fountainhead, but I loved the book. I was less interested in Roark than the villains: Peter Keeting, Ellsworth Toohey, Gail Wynand in the beginning, and Peter's g/f at the end. I couldn't tell what she was getting at with Peter's g/f. It was like Toohey did something that sucked the life out of her.
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    • Posted by seymourblogger 11 years, 1 month ago
      You are moving in the right direction. Rand is the great philosopher she always wanted to be but didn't really know she already was. She is a great disciple of Nietzsche's. Nietzsche is in almost every sentence she ever wrote. And all continental philosophy rests on Nietzsche.
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  • Posted by $ Telecoman 11 years, 1 month ago
    I use to work for Worldcom, Berny Ebber's was a control freak, for good reasons as he was a corrupt business man. When he bought MFN (the company I worked for) as soon as Jim Crow signed the paper work Berny laid off 10% of MFN people. When Joe call him one it, that during the buy out talks Berny promised to keep all the MFN people, Berny" response was "and you believed me?".
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    • Posted by seymourblogger 11 years, 1 month ago
      Of course. What was he? Mentally deficient? If he didn't get it in writing then he didn't mean for it to happen, but this way he could act and say he never meant that. And that way you blame the guy that bought the company, said "and you believed me" and fired the people. "Remember who the enemy is." - Haymich in Catching Fire:The Hunger Games.
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  • Posted by $ CBJ 11 years, 1 month ago
    Re Enron, buy or check out the excellent book "Capitalism at Work" by Robert Bradley. He was an Enron employee for 16 years, is an expert on energy economics, and is a free-market advocate who is affiliated with the Cato Institute.
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  • Posted by sfdi1947 11 years, 1 month ago
    XenokRoy;
    It goes back before written history. There are always among us, others who would like to lie around and still look fancy without having to work for or be responsible for the right to do so. There is no ethnicity, gendral or religious reason for it, save that every religion condemns it. At the companies you've mentioned, certain senior managers did whatever was necessary to line their own pockets, without thought about who would be hurt. They didn't care. Don't know if Jeff Skilling is still in jail, but if you look at his face during the trial you'll see no remorse, he was sad because he'd be ripped for a small share of what he'd stolen, but I'd bet he has at least 50 B stashed somewhere, so doing the time doesn't bother him a bit. The same thing occurred with the Housing/Mortgage Bubble and will happen again. Can you tell me why speculation (Gambling) has driven the value of many listed companies, on the exchanges, to share prices that are a hundred times any realistic evaluation of their actual assets? Now, what was that Gecko quote, ah yes, "Greed is Good!" But he only neglected to say honestly earned greed, and it would also be nice if there were a public ethic in there somewhere.
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  • Posted by $ Stormi 11 years, 1 month ago
    If you want a good article on Common Core, see
    http://www.aim.org/special-report/terror... - by Mary Grabar, "Terrorist Bill Ayers and Obama's Federal School Curriculum".
    You are right about miseducation and CC. First, a Federal curriculum will always serve political goals, especially with Marxists in charge. The idea is to dumb down, until all kids are equally uneducated. History will be rewritten to glorify socialists, and delete mention of military heroes.
    Math and health will continue to include values clarification instead of hard academics. Parents will be brainwashed into thinking schools are doing a great thing. And bottom line, customer service will get worse and worse, as attitudes and abilities of students devolve. The good part, they will no longer be able to use cursive, so it will be like a code language for the rest of us, like Navajo during the war. Remember development was funded by Bill Gates, who has called for the reduction of millions from the population, saying during a taped talk, "Vaccines are the way to go." It just is really bad all around, and that is not even wit the kids learning to embrace UN Agenda 21 (for pseudo-environmentatl reasons), which will end property rights in the US, and completely change how we live. Obama has given support to that as well. Jobs will be lost when the Agenda bans A/C, refrigeration, autos, etc. Check out the American Policy Center, www.Americanpolicy.org for more details.
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    • Posted by seymourblogger 11 years, 1 month ago
      Public school education can be understood through Foucault's Discipline and Punish. It is part of the Foucauldian Grid of power/knowledge/capital/normality. That is the focus of public education. It is not about learning. It is about obedience to the norm, so as to fit you in the niche of the system.
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      • Posted by $ Stormi 11 years, 1 month ago
        Seymourblogger, Thanks for the expansion of the goals of education to include the work of Foucault.
        Fighting the status quo as our daughter overcame the mediocre experience of public education, several of us saw that education was not really the goal .A desire to keep people stupid seemed to be. Knowing of the One World bunch, we assumed that was the source. It was obvious the ones implementing the programs did not have a clue. The schools are filled with self-proclaimed, usually destructive psychologists. One can see the methods described in "Brainwashing in Red China", a book now out of print. I had not considered Foucault, even though one of my majors, a while back, was philosophy. Back then focus was on the older established philosophers, which thankfully included Rand.
        Reviewing Foucault, I see the easy transition from prisons to schools - which know resemble gulags to conceal their experimentation. Criminology was not a field of study for me, however, I did discover two statistics a while back which support Foucault's claims. There is a high incidence of uncorrected illiteracy among prison populations, perhaps an initial cause of incarceration but certainly not one the system wishes to correct. The other untreated and ignored statistic is that a high incidence of untreated allergies can be found in that population, which leads to both violent behavior and problems learning. If they wanted to reform the populations, both issued would be addressed and attempts to correct them made. Therefore, they obviously just warehouse, and Foucault's theories are proven. Thank you for another source beyond leftist Dewey and Bill Ayers, to explain what is going wrong with schools, while sleeping parents counter-productively pass levy after levy to keep it all going.,
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        • Posted by seymourblogger 11 years, 1 month ago
          First Dewey is not leftist. Dewey based all education on experience. See the movie Paper Clips for Dewey in action where nothing suggests his name or influence. And in reading Dewey, not others on Dewey, changes the sound bites and the Discourse on Dewey.

          As for Foucault he did not pose theories. He did not claim anything. Statistics have nothing to do with his work. That is all the Dominating Discourse which you have been trained to write, think and speak in.

          If you don't pose a theories then they cannot be proven. Foucault, as he has said, leaves a tool chest, a different way of thinking. And he got this from Nietzsche, NIetzsche's genealogy in which in his Genealogy of Morals takes apart the religious belief in God. Nietzsche does not say God is dead, "he challenges God to appear" which is something quite different. And he does say that God's ghost will be around for a long long time.

          As I hope you know, Rand was an avid student, disciple of Nietzsche from age 16, through the writing of Fountainhead, until she learned to be quiet about him as Hitler praised him and we were at war.She read him on the sly from school mandated studies.Her cousin had told her Nietzsche beat you to your ideas and she found that he had. She bought her first English book in the US Beyond Good and Evil and told Barbara she had underlined all her favorite passages. So that is how we know she learned English. Through Nietzsche. This is the way William Burroughs suggests anyone learn a foreign language, your favorite book in yours and the language you want to learn.

          Nietzsche's advice to writers: "Words written in blood are not to be read but learnt by heart." And much more. Rand took him very very seriously and her style reflects her seriousness with Nietzsche. He is embedded in her style. Read him then read Rand and it becomes obvious. As to education I recommend Hesse's Beneath the Wheel. Still relevant. Public education is to produce - PRODUCE - normal, disciplined, obedient members of the society it is an institution of.

          As a philosopher, Rand is very great. Her philosophy is not Objectivism however, as she thought. It is all in her fiction, as in Bataille's, and its bedrock is Nietzsche.Great minds have floundered there as Heidegger attests. Hers did not. She is completely post modern in her thinking. You need to read Zizek on Rand in Journal of Ayn Rand Studies.
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          • Posted by $ Stormi 11 years, 1 month ago
            Seymourblogger,
            Well, we do not share a love of Nietzsche. Rand may have read his works, as have many of us, they are interesting, if depressing. However, Rand wrote "Anthem" with a setting of a world without any "I" in it. Nietzsche would have seen that as good, as only will exists.
            Marilyn Manson is a fan of Nietzsche, but I am not. One of our daughter's three degrees is in criminology, where she also has a Masters. She said they classify Foucault under the ethical category, but not as as research in the field. Perhaps his desire to not posit theories is the reason.
            As to Dewey, he is the beginning of the end of any chance academic education in this country. Humanism and manipulation are what we have seen. Yes, I have his books which I have read. Just as I have read Alinsky's "Rules for Radicals" and Mao's Little Red Book, but do not embrace the ideas of any of them. I can admire some things in each, but must dismiss them all as wrong for the world where freedom and responsibility come from the person. Dewey promoted children who would end up socialists, altruists, and without an inner compass.
            I object to the term "normal" in describing the outcome of the schools, not too crazy about "obedient" either. That would suggest living for the interest of another, and not being self directed. It would suggest being labeled by others as normal or not normal, which is exactly what the communists do in controlling people. They are considered sane if they walk in lockstep, but worthy of institutionalizing if not.
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            • Posted by seymourblogger 11 years, 1 month ago
              Your daughter may have the degrees, as you referenced to authority in that statement, but clearly you do not.
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              • Posted by $ Stormi 11 years, 1 month ago
                Geez, Seymour, you sound just like a liberal here, go for the personal attack. Actually, I wonder what your degree might be and if you also might have a history in education. So you know, I have degrees in both English and Philosophy, with minors in political science and biology.. I also have a business school degree in accounting and another in computers. IQ-wise, my daughter is in the top 1% of the country and I am in the top 2%.
                I am smart enough to know that not everyone interprets every philosopher exactly the same, nor should I expect it.As Sartre wrote, it is the writer's responsibility to write but not overwrite, and the reader then has a responsibility of interpretation. I make value judgements based on what philosophers offers in creating the world in which I want to live.I find both the early writings of Sartre and then Rand fill those requirements, although someone else might reach the same goal via some other philosophers. Also, the writings of John Stuart Mill and Bastiat say what needs to be said to enlighten people to the path of freedom.. For me, philosophy has to be useable, something that the common man can grasp and use daily, Some of the darker writings are great for considering on the side.There are a few areas of writing that say all that needs to be said to keep the engines running and Atlas from Shrugging. Does the philosopher's writing tell man he has always a choice?. Second does it inform him he is responsible for those choices? Does it teach him that socialism and altruism are not compatible with freedom and capitalism. Does the system of philosophy (or education theory) teach that there are no free lunches (yeah some economist got it right too), and that there must be equal trade? People have enough trouble grasping things this simple, albeit difficult to live by. They do not have time, nor usually understanding, to go through the philosophers who base their theories on math, or go so deep and dark that people never come back into the light of trying to live by a philosophy.
                Sadly, even Sartre gave up the hard existential dogma and fell into Marxism, but, given more time, would he have come back - one can only speculate. Nietzsche went mad from a brain tumor, so one cannot be sure where his thought would have gone if he had not suffered so .Teachers love to try to apply Maslow, and tinker with his group therapy - yet not one I have met knew that as he watched his system in place, he renounced group therapy in any but the licensed professional's office. Still, teachers are applying it, poorly trained as they are, right in public grade school classrooms. Yet Maslow called such practice "dangerous" - poor students.
                Rand made her writing clear and fairly direct."Capitalism, the Unknown Ideal" makes you crave real capitalism, not the sad remnants under which we now live. Kid's should read Rand in school, instead of the nonsense they now assign. By high school, the world I envision (yes, naively) would graduate students who were able to read "Atlas Shrugged" and understand it. They should think, I am, therefore I think - good motto to live by.
                I detect that you have an issue with Objectivism. In what way? What is the world you envision? Are you satisfied with broken systems that do not work, and are not meant to work? We live in a dumbed down world where most teachers asked a year ago, did not know the Federal Reserve was not a government agency. Practically no one knew about the bankers' meeting in Basil, Switzerland back when the Fanny Mae scandal hit - yet if lowed interest rates on all our IRAs and pensions. People think the Federal government has a "stash" as one person put it, to get them what they want. No clue it was the tax dollars paid by less than half the population now. Is this good enough to keep Atlas from Shrugging, do you think?. Should we not want better, if only for our own good?
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                • Posted by 11 years, 1 month ago
                  Stormi,

                  I wanted to thank you for this post. Particularly it gave me a few people i have not read that I can not look up some books from and read.

                  I just finished Capitalism, the unknown Ideal for the second time. Incidentally that is what made me post this thread. I craved more essays like those in that book.

                  I attempt to educate my kids well here at my house. I think its a parents responsibility not a teachers. I want teachers to present material to my kids from all walks of life, governments philosophies.... and them, sometimes on there own and sometimes with my help, to determine which they like, do not like, believe and do not believe.

                  My oldest son is a senior in high school. His AP US history teacher has been being schooled by him quite often. Thus far this year he had corrected the teacher (according to him) 217 times, and the first 20 or so come to me asking where X is in a book or reference, put together a small essay and taken it back to prove he was right. I think the teacher stopped asking for evidence. I brought this up only because one of those early points he brought in to me to get evidence was the federal reserve not being a government agency. This is the advanced placement US history teacher. His 8th grade US history teacher was much better.
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                • Posted by Hiraghm 11 years, 1 month ago
                  My God, this whole conversation reads like a scene from Asimov's "Foundation" (which makes it sound like a plebeian conversation in 2nd century Rome...)
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                  • Posted by $ Stormi 11 years, 1 month ago
                    Well, good analysis Hiraghm. Welcome to not the Rise and Fall of not the Roman Empire, but of the great experiment of the US Republic, The Greek philosophers saw a reason for discussion and thinking, something that has now been replaced by passive watching of reality TV. Perhaps after four years translating works from Latin, I once had hopes for our school system and the country in general. The private college I attended was structured, both architecturally and academically on the Greek methods. Then I became a parent and the reality of the crumbing public school systems and economic systems left me wanting to fight to stop the decay. I hear a lot of philosophical excuses for why it is so and will remain so. That is not good enough, Rand warned us what was coming our way, she understood long before we did. She predicted the banning of the incandescent light bulb in "Anthem", well ahead of any science fiction movie. In that same small novel, she shows us life without books or "I". Schools are going all tablets, leaving books to those of us whose houses contain thousands of them. What is on the tablet will be the only history, the only reality - in the manner of Orwell's "1984" - since you like science fiction. Then some maniac will pull an electromagnetic event, and wipe even that out. You may term it plebeian, but talk could well be all the masses have left, and memories of philosophers to show us the way back. None of this had to happen, we let it happen, and yes, it is like an Asimov novel.
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              • Posted by Hiraghm 11 years, 1 month ago
                I have a word you may want to look up sometime. Y'know, sometime when you want your arguments to be relevant...

                The word is... "Context".
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      • Posted by Hiraghm 11 years, 1 month ago
        Are you capable of formulating your own thoughts and ideas, or did you empty so much of your mind to store the ideas of others that no processing power remains?
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  • Posted by khalling 11 years, 1 month ago
    hey, Xenok. missed you.
    check out the Atlas Society's Business Rights Center-
    http://www.atlassociety.org/brc

    As well, my husband wrote a book that deals in part with what happened in the case of WorldCom and the unintended consequences of the laws passed that have not stopped fraud but have stopped businesses from going public. there are always huge unintended consequences in the passage of laws hastily written in reaction to business fraud. In the end, like murder, there are sufficient laws in place. It does not stop all murder or fraud.
    http://www.amazon.com/Decline-Fall-Ameri...
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    • Posted by 11 years, 1 month ago
      I was working for a German company this spring that decided it would be cheaper (thanks to affordable care act) to operate out of Germany than the US. I have not had much luck getting something else, and not wanting to take unemployment (yes I am justified to do it, but it also validates them taking it in the first place) I have picked up several jobs to make enough to get my family by until I can find a job in my field again that pays a bit better. leaves much less time for reading articles and such.

      thanks for the response. I knew there had to be some stuff out there, and would normally just start searching. I was being lazy and wanted to save some time - get ideas. I need to start reading more again as I miss it.
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      • Posted by khalling 11 years, 1 month ago
        best of luck to you. you're an engineer-what's your background and location again?
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        • Posted by 11 years, 1 month ago
          Utah,

          For the last 13 years I have been managing customer service centers, before that I did consulting, customer support, System Engineer and a 6 month stent in testing. I like fixing things not breaking them :) testing was not for me.
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          • Posted by airfredd22 11 years, 1 month ago
            Dear Xenok Roy,

            I found your background interesting, especially the management of customer service centers.

            I would be interested in your philosophy and management style regarding customer service.

            My own feeling is that very few businesses and people even understand the words "customer service."

            Several years ago I was in the process of starting up a company that would teach "real customer service" with the emphasis on service.

            Perhaps, it's again time to look into this situation.

            I would be interested in learning more about your resume.

            Sincerely yours,

            Fred Speckmann
            775-378-5023
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            • Posted by John_Emerson 11 years, 1 month ago
              In many instances I've found "customer service" to take it's cues from animal husbandry. They service their customers the way a bull services a cow.
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              • Posted by airfredd22 11 years, 1 month ago
                I couldn't have said it better. However, I do believe that even stupid CEO's can be persuaded with time and effort. Of course, I'm just a naive 65 year old former entrepreneur that is sick and tired of the often rude and incompetent "customer service" in our nation.

                We can and will do better.

                Fred Speckmann
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                • Posted by airfredd22 11 years, 1 month ago
                  Hello Roy,

                  I finally got out of the hospital about an hour ago and am just settling in. I'm in Reno, so thee may be a time difference depending on where you live.

                  I'm in the process of catching up to over a dozen calls, so I'll be in touch tomorrow. Do you have a preference on when to call you. Let me know if were talking your time zone or mine,

                  Fred
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            • Posted by 11 years, 1 month ago
              Fred,

              I called and left a message with I think a nephew with my number.

              There are some examples of better support out there. Zippo lighters has the highest Net Promoter Score in its sector. They use no scripts, they empower people by telling them to use their brain, come up with solutions and make the customer happy. They have much lower turn over rate than the others and pay 50 cents an hour on average lower than there competitors. People want to go home feeling like they have done a job, not read scripts all day. Customers want to call a place where people are doing a job rather than the job being to read scrips all day. Both are more satisfied when the support rep is allowed to use there mind, then when everything is scripted.

              In my view if your getting calls that can be easily scripted you have one more more the following problems:
              1. Product is not intuitive in its use.
              2. Documentation is poorly done. Either not concise and simple so that it gets used, or simply does not cover it.
              3. Your online knowledge-base and community is poorly done.
              4. You are helping customers without using the KB articles from #3 above as a guide. Show customers the answers are there and easy to find and follow and they will go get them.

              Scripted calls are simply something that should not be done in a call. I want my support reps (in my career usually very technical support engineers) to handle real problems that we have not seen and do not know the answers to.

              Anything we have seen three times with the same solution to the problem better be well documents on our KB for the short term, and have a plan from either software or documentation changes to make it go away in the long term.

              You do not control costs by pushing customers off from the people who can solve the problems you control costs by working in a way that allows the efforts of 1 engineer to reach multiple customers and feeding information back to development and product management that will allow for the issues to be addressed so that you no longer get calls on them.

              that is it in a nutshell.
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            • Posted by Hiraghm 11 years, 1 month ago
              Sharing Time again! (blame airfredd22, LetsShrug, khalling)...

              Tween 2004 and 2008 I was a dispatcher for a delivery service. They were out of Tulsa, and had just opened a branch in OKC. We weren't supposed to make a profit for 3 years; we made a profit the 1st year.

              Our primary service was delivering delayed luggage (never "lost"!). As the six airlines we serviced were our customers, we of course could never badmouth them.

              Once we had processed a piece of luggage, the dispatcher had to call the airline customer to confirm the address and arrange a delivery time, plus get directions if necessary.

              Did I mention that we had to call the airline *customer* who had delayed luggage? These are not happy people.

              Even though I'm not comfortable dealing with people, I took great pride in how I handled our customers' customers. Passengers would be angry when the conversation began, and, if I did my job right, content or even happy by the time I hung up. Most of them didn't need their luggage right away; they just needed reassurance that someone knew where it was and was taking responsibility for its safe return to them.

              My favorite case was a passenger whose luggage, through a miscommunication with the airline, was delayed longer than necessary. Oh he was *pist*. He wanted to know where our office was; our policy is that passengers don't come to our office, with rare exceptions. No matter what I said, I couldn't calm him down. So, I told him our address, told him I'd be there by the door with his luggage, and if he wanted to pop me in the nose I'd be available.

              He came in under a thundercloud, his wife behind him more nervous than upset. I had his luggage right there, I explained to him the cause of the snafu, took responsibility for it... and before he left he shook my hand, thanked me, and apologized for his rudeness. That turnaround I'm proud of.

              I tried teaching it to the other dispatchers, but they couldn't seem to understand. Like in "Roadhouse", when a customer is raging at you, it's not *personal*. They're tired, frustrated, aggravated, distracted. Emotions need an outlet. If you can get their info and get off the phone, I would tell the dispatchers I was training, you win. If you can turn it around and make them happy, you win big. The only way you lose is if you take it personal and rage back at them.

              I find it amusing, even though I'm half a step above untouchables, that customers most often turn or come to me for help or answers, at Walmart. At first I thought it was my age, skin color, or hat. Now, I think it's because I'm one of the few employees who follows the 10 foot rule; making eye contact and speaking with anyone who gets within 10 feet of me. Again, they're looking for reassurance as much as anything.
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              • Posted by khalling 11 years, 1 month ago
                so THAT'S it! everywhere I go, people come up to me and ask for help. In Walmart, everyone wears a blue smock-HELLO- why are you asking me where the toothpaste is?! and here I thought making eye contact was just being human.
                People ask me for directions too. They shouldn't do that...
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                • Posted by Hiraghm 11 years, 1 month ago
                  Well, not a blue smock... the technical minimal uniform is a dark blue polo shirt and tan khaki pants. On the night shift we can get away with... a large variation. We're also supposed to have our name badge visible if we're on the clock... doesn't always happen.

                  There's a new support manager, btw (thanks for the opportunity to bring this up). She keeps calling me "John"... I'm guessing it's because on the 30th and 31st I wore my "John Galt" name badge (along with my 20th century motor corp hat). I haven't corrected her yet.

                  But, yes, make eye contact with a Walmart customer who's looking for something and they will glom onto you like a drowning man grabbing a rubber raft...
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            • Posted by seymourblogger 11 years, 1 month ago
              Customer service depends on your ability to read what your customer really wants. If you are replying to the content of what your customer asks for you are probably missing the intent. You need to be able to do both.
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              • Posted by airfredd22 11 years, 1 month ago
                I disagree slightly, the customer service agent needs to listen to what the customer wants and then help guide him to the proper answer. The problem today is that these people don't listen because they work of a pitch sheet that seldom addresses the question being asked. Furthermore, they are also trained to only follow the path designed by the management instead of dealing with customer needs. It is also aggravating when you get happy talk instead of responses to the customers needs.

                Fred Speckmann
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  • -2
    Posted by seymourblogger 11 years, 1 month ago
    The answers to what you want to know are all in Rand's fiction - not her non-fiction. Her fiction stands on the shoulders of her only master - Nietzsche. All post modern philosophy - if we can label it that - rests on Nietzsche. The Randians just haven't caught up to all that yet. With the exception of Peikoff.
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    • Posted by 11 years, 1 month ago
      I have read some Nietzsche as I have heard similar claims before. I found it to be nonsense. Perhaps Rand has a way of writing things that I can comprehend more effectively but from what I did comprehend of Nietzche they did not appear to have much in common.
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