So a couple of problems: #1 - according to most land-use laws, you must disclose any easements on a property under sale. Why didn't Khosla's attorney notify him about the easement when he was going to purchase the property? #2 - why is a private citizen liable for anything that happens when an unauthorized person (read anyone not a guest of the owner) is using the easement? Seems rather contradictory to require someone to grant arbitrary access AND maintain responsibility?
There was no easement, it was a private trail and parking area the former owner set up. Khosla decided to stop the liability to himself, and the people used to the old owner's lot, who felt they should tell Khosla what he had to do with his property, sued him.
I'll bet there is no easement. That's how the former owners maintained the road. They charged for parking which is like charging for use to hedge against the responsibilities. That's why I wanted to know the zoning for the road. Is it separate from the rest of the property? If not, this judge's ruling is unconstitutional. but that's never stopped california before. that's like saying, you haven't built on that land for a century, you can't build now because we took it for granted you wouldn't. oh, that's right, we'll just call it a wetland.
So just curious, but if there is no easement on the property (and especially if the privilege is being paid for), what is the justification to treat the access as an easement? (Maybe I'm just naieve in believing there is anything rational or just going on here...)
we're speculating here. An access is a condition to the private property. But California does not have a rule that I am aware of that says you must maintain a certain number of feet to your property to allow access to beaches. An easement is a contract, usually of significant duration. You have to look carefully at those contracts when purchasing a property, sometimes they become null when ownership changes. I am unfamiliar with a government entity entering into an easement contract with a private citizen. but I don't know. here is what California law says: http://www.coastal.ca.gov/access/accndx....
Thank you. I clicked through and read the various links extolling the virtues of public access and found this sentence: "California law provides that under certain conditions, long term public access across private property may result in the establishment of a permanent public easement. This is called a public prescriptive right of access."
Ya know, it would maybe make a lot more sense if the State did not punish people for being nice. If the State said, "We guarantee not to take away your private property if you let the public on it." a lot more property owners would look favorably on this. What is more, if the State offered a 'fair trade' as in, "If you allow the public on your lands, we will maintain the road for you.", why - that would be even nicer.
As it is, as long as we keep the gate locked and are not 'nice' we will seem to be OK.
and the added irony that I have never visited a state that closed down as many "public access" parks and beaches as California does on a regular basis.
Usually for some politically motivated purpose. The state assembly wo't passs a clearly looter-based budget? Sorry, all state parks and historical sites - even those privately owned - are closed.
We are living in a socialist country now. Things like this are commonplace within a socialist framework. Since most of the people support things they can get for free, it really is time for the wealthy and productive to abandon ship and wait for the socialist economy to crash, as in venequela
I spent much of my childhood on this beach. There is a photo of my mom, brother and I stacked on each other in a triangle with the big rock there in the background. Many memories. But, several years ago I saw that the sign was down. Then, I heard that the beach had been closed to the public. This confused me because I always thought it was a public beach. I still think it is probably a question of the right-of-way for the road from highway 1, through the ag field, to the beach. Last time I was there I noticed several new private residences built right up to the sand. Nice little places.
I think there's probably more to this story than what Fox News is reporting. I plan to take my wife and kids there and recreate that photo (40 years later) on the sand.
Here on the west coast I have seen beaches really taken over by very wealthy, with access greatly limited. I'm torn over that because being on the beaches was a major part of my childhood. Now, I rent big, expensive beach houses just south of this location. Both have keyed gates, not allowing public access to the beach, near Capitola. I hope to own a property there eventually (and have a key of my own). Wish me luck.
I must add that life in California without beach access equals hell...
They did not. They had a parking area and beach access they would charge for (I've been there, BTW). The new owner said no more - they did not want the liability this bit of potential spot would create. Their answer was to lock the gate, and tell people to go up or down the road.
I wonder what would happen if that road suddenly vanished? Hmmm... it's now my backyard garden. No road here. Go away, trespassers.
I fall on the other side of agreement with this ruling. Preventing public access to beaches (as an example of trying to control access to other property by limiting access through your own property) has always been frowned on, as it should be. Particularly after a century's history of granting such access.
I'm with kh on this one... The new owner is under no obligation unless it was a condition of the sale of the property, which does not appear to be the case. It would be worth appealing unless the State resorted to eminent domain (which looks like their next ploy); unfortunately the Supreme Court has allowed eminent domain to stand and the takers just keep on taking.
It's long been the case that the courts enforce historical usage of travel ways without eminent domain. It's even the case that if a property owner permits a neighbor to erect a fence that intrudes onto his property and allows that fence to remain for a certain number of years, whether he knows about it or not, that property title within the fence has been transferred to the intruder.
It seems to me that the state should simply purchase the access property. Simply forcing property owners to provide access is clearly wrong as it asserts ownership of the property without the associated responsibility.
Indeed herein lies the rub -- the negotiation of price. Eminent domain says that the state will determine the price not the free market. And this is yet another place where I part company with them. If the state truly believes that beach access is so valuable let them bid accordingly. Bringing "eminent domain guns" into play is not a trade , merely more thuggery.
I agree. I sometimes have nightmares of a near-future world where the US declares Imminent Domain over all of our yards and homes - and said that the price was $0. Then I wake and remember the EPA has already done this for puddles and ponds...
Easements still rely on two contracting parties. Who was the owner to contract with? The public? In the past the road was managed by charging for parking. But there was no obligation on the part of the current owner to continue that business. This isn 't just people navigating a path to the beach, this involves lots of cars and the owner's liability for what happens on his property. Whose obligation is that now that the courts have said we don 't care that you don 't want to deal with those issues, that property is yours in case someone decides to sue you or any negative consequences of its use but the public 's for any of the benefits.
Will the state step in and cover the lawsuit from someone breaking their leg on his property because they mandated access? Not a chance... This battle has been going on for a while, and the courts struck yet another blow against the rights of the people.
Yet we all accept imposed easements on our property out to 1/2 of an alley or for a public sidewalk and for city, county, and state owned utilities whether in place or for possible future use as well as for privately owned utilities again whether in place or for possible future use, even if we don't access those utilities; and injuries incurred within those easements by government or private utility employees if determined to be due to improper property maintenance or improper construction can impose liability on the property owner.
There are numerous court cases throughout the country going back numbers of years that grant continued historical use even in the absence of an easement detailed in purchase contracts, particularly in the cases of transport and the continuation of county and rural travelways.
In this particular case, I seriously doubt that the new owner has any concern over liabilities but rather just wishes to prevent access to the beach in front of his 89 acres (which he can't own past the historical high tide) by preventing use of an historical roadway. In any case he has available court ordered indemnity and I would guess that such is a part of the court's ruling. Certainly if the previous property owners had allowed the usage for a century (?), they must have had some such indemnification in place. Regardless, I think this is simply a case of 'Buyer beware'. This is the wrong case for argument of private property rights.
well db agrees that you cannot prevent people access from navigable waters and therefore a reasonable amount of beachfront. and because you did not develop the beach, keeping people from getting to it is at the very least being a bad neighbor. But in this case, much more was happening including the maintenance of a road and a parking lot. At what point do you demand the new owner of a commercial enterprise has to keep his doors open for the same business? why is it unreasonable for him to say, no, that business is I will not pursue and so the access ends up being a larger burden than a simple footpath down to the beach. It forces you to perhaps maintain some security you might not otherwise need. It was gated, after all, which leads me to believe the gate had been closed at times over the last 70 or so years.
khalling; 'being a bad neighbor' doesn't quite cover it. The new owner is attempting to gain value or property through coercive force that he can't gain otherwise through the normal means of purchasing. I don't think it's a question of forcing a new owner to continue a business. I don't think the court is doing that in this case. I suspect the previous owner simply saw an opportunity to profit from doing something he knew he'd have to do anyway. We don't know who controlled the closing of the gate, the property owner or the government in cases of dangerous weather.
khalling, I agree that there was no contractual public easement, but there was an historical public access usage. Public use access is seldom if ever detailed in a property contract.
And before anyone accuses me otherwise, I'm a strong supporter of private property rights, but I'm equally a strong opponent of predatory and coercive attempts to control other property by the purchase of surrounding property to gain value or profit of property that can't be otherwise bought for what ever reason. That is a tactic being utilized by such groups as the Sierra Club, Nature Conservatancy, Wildlife Conservatancy, and many others such as Ted Turner and celebrity purchasers throughout the West simply for the purpose of denying historical access and use of huge tracts of public lands.
Actually, I think that this is worthy of a discussion topic. The property that I am thinking of in my opinions is property that is bought by an owner for the purpose of owning that bit of land - and then bad things happen to the concept of 'ownership'. What you are indicating is that the idea of buying up a 'donut' of land for the express purpose of denying customary access to the 'donut hole' in the middle is cheating on the basic idea of owning property.
I really have not thought about this and how it dovetails (or not) with the idea that I can own a piece of land and say, "Get off my property!" to someone who is trespassing.
Jan yes, I'm sorry I didn't explain myself sufficiently. The terminology of 'donut hole' isn't one I'd thought of, but it's a good description. Examples that come to mind in the West have centered around water. A small rancher has a piece of property with a spring that his ancestors settled and gained title to. It's the only water within miles. He and his neighbors have worked out arrangements with each other including travel ways, access, sharing or selling water, etc and they've done so for decades.
Another more wealthy rancher wants that water, but the first won't sell--it's been in his family forever, he wants to leave it to his kids, he makes a living selling the water to others, etc. The second rancher buys up all the land around the first and using trespass, shuts off all access to the first, even for trips to town for shopping, etc. But more particularly to make the land worthless for selling the water or operating a small ranch business. (The reverse has also happened with flowing water, i.e. creeks being dammed, etc)
The first rancher has in fact just lost his land and it's extrinsic value. He's left with the options of abandonment or doing a forced sale to the second rancher at a drastically reduced price, who now has just increased the value of his own property multifold. Under the basis of pure trespass, the second rancher might be seen to have the right to do as he wants with his property and granting or denying access to his property. Courts in these cases have looked at the history of access for the property and ruled in favor of the first rancher. But they've ruled the other way against public access in a lot of the environmental/wilderness/wild animal passage vs public cases. Thus the Hague's and Bundy's in Nevada and eminent domain abuses in city/developer vs private owners. Even dozens of cases that are happening now for off-the-grid property owners vs public/private utility.
The black box of my ethics module says that donut/donut hole is 'cheating' and that a genuine 'get off my land' is not. But I need to analyze what the code is inside the black box that leads me to those conclusions. Thank you for the discussion, Zenpharmy.
Jan; the beach was determined to not be property since at times it's under water from the tide of the sea, and as db reminded me in kh's comment above, barring access to navigable waters is not allowed. But this example aside, when does allowing a buyer to gain the benefit or value of something like a beach or any other property that he can't buy, by buying property of lesser value in order to prevent access and use by anyone else to that primary property, coercive and therefor gaining value through force?
I think the answer is 'all the time'. Anyone who owns a piece of property may be 'in the way' of something of value behind it. This does not mean that the government gets to declare that people have the inherent right to tromp through your property to get to the uranium mine or pretty waterfall or whatever the value item is that is behind your back yard. (It does mean that a negotiated settlement of easement rights is appropriate.)
Plus, I would like to contest the idea that the government can rewrite the rules at whim - such as the EPA is doing with ponds and puddles. If the government changes the rules to take something away from you, you are at least entitled to recompense - or a good fight. People who have ponds in their backyards have now forfeit their right to control those waters - and the government has taken over that right. They get nothing in return.
How many people in the US have homes along rivers? Along shores? The statement 'barring access to navigable waters is not allowed' makes it sound as if this is an eternal commandment. But I recall it not being so when I was a child. So, in the past, a property owner along the coast (or a river, or a lake) was considered to actually have bought the beach and own it. (As I mentioned before, I dimly recall the grownups saying that we used to own some of the ocean - 100 yards out or something like that.) These are all laws that are made by mankind, and subject to reinterpretation, revision, and argument.
Khosla has been and continues to be a big donor to the DNC as well as individual Democratic Party campaigns. It appears his protection payments were not enough. He didn't consider what his support has been doing to regular folks but now that it's biting him, he is paying attention. Too late.
I ca provide some additional information on the history of this - my family owns a mile or so of coastal property between Big Sur and Carmel. This land has been in the family for about 6 generations. Originally, with the land came ownership of a certain amount of the coastal waters (I do not recall how much). Then, the law changed and all the ocean belonged to the government - up to the beach. This was subsequently 'clarified' (during my lifetime) to mean that our property began 'at the high tide mark' of the beach. But at least we still owned our land-based property per se, right? Well, a few years ago it was declared that since all of the beaches 'belong to the public' (presumably this is 'below the high tide mark', but that is picking a nit) the property owners could not prevent access to the beaches, even though it was over their private property on privately maintained roads.
The roads down to the beach are in many cases the remnants of the Old Coast Road that have been kept open by the property owners for the past 3 generations so that they could get down to their own beach. That is what this article is about - the continued erosion of the property rights of the land owners.
Insofar as 'breaking a leg' is concerned, the Sierra Club actually got passed a pro-property owner law back in about 2002: as long as you do not invite a person onto your land or represent that your land is safe, if someone who is trespassing is injured you are protected from suit. (They did this so that people would be more willing to let hikers cross their property.)
Next it will be his liability when someone falls on the path because it is poorly maintained and unlit!
#1 - according to most land-use laws, you must disclose any easements on a property under sale. Why didn't Khosla's attorney notify him about the easement when he was going to purchase the property?
#2 - why is a private citizen liable for anything that happens when an unauthorized person (read anyone not a guest of the owner) is using the easement? Seems rather contradictory to require someone to grant arbitrary access AND maintain responsibility?
Easy answer? Get rid of the road. Problem solved.
http://www.coastal.ca.gov/access/accndx....
Ya know, it would maybe make a lot more sense if the State did not punish people for being nice. If the State said, "We guarantee not to take away your private property if you let the public on it." a lot more property owners would look favorably on this. What is more, if the State offered a 'fair trade' as in, "If you allow the public on your lands, we will maintain the road for you.", why - that would be even nicer.
As it is, as long as we keep the gate locked and are not 'nice' we will seem to be OK.
Jan
(If one could believe the State...)
I think there's probably more to this story than what Fox News is reporting. I plan to take my wife and kids there and recreate that photo (40 years later) on the sand.
Here on the west coast I have seen beaches really taken over by very wealthy, with access greatly limited. I'm torn over that because being on the beaches was a major part of my childhood. Now, I rent big, expensive beach houses just south of this location. Both have keyed gates, not allowing public access to the beach, near Capitola. I hope to own a property there eventually (and have a key of my own). Wish me luck.
I must add that life in California without beach access equals hell...
This goes, of course, to the whole notion of the government owning anything. That's the real problem.
I wonder what would happen if that road suddenly vanished? Hmmm... it's now my backyard garden. No road here. Go away, trespassers.
I gather the owner hasn't made up his mind what to do next.
Jan
Jan
There are numerous court cases throughout the country going back numbers of years that grant continued historical use even in the absence of an easement detailed in purchase contracts, particularly in the cases of transport and the continuation of county and rural travelways.
In this particular case, I seriously doubt that the new owner has any concern over liabilities but rather just wishes to prevent access to the beach in front of his 89 acres (which he can't own past the historical high tide) by preventing use of an historical roadway. In any case he has available court ordered indemnity and I would guess that such is a part of the court's ruling. Certainly if the previous property owners had allowed the usage for a century (?), they must have had some such indemnification in place. Regardless, I think this is simply a case of 'Buyer beware'. This is the wrong case for argument of private property rights.
And before anyone accuses me otherwise, I'm a strong supporter of private property rights, but I'm equally a strong opponent of predatory and coercive attempts to control other property by the purchase of surrounding property to gain value or profit of property that can't be otherwise bought for what ever reason. That is a tactic being utilized by such groups as the Sierra Club, Nature Conservatancy, Wildlife Conservatancy, and many others such as Ted Turner and celebrity purchasers throughout the West simply for the purpose of denying historical access and use of huge tracts of public lands.
I really have not thought about this and how it dovetails (or not) with the idea that I can own a piece of land and say, "Get off my property!" to someone who is trespassing.
Jan
Another more wealthy rancher wants that water, but the first won't sell--it's been in his family forever, he wants to leave it to his kids, he makes a living selling the water to others, etc. The second rancher buys up all the land around the first and using trespass, shuts off all access to the first, even for trips to town for shopping, etc. But more particularly to make the land worthless for selling the water or operating a small ranch business. (The reverse has also happened with flowing water, i.e. creeks being dammed, etc)
The first rancher has in fact just lost his land and it's extrinsic value. He's left with the options of abandonment or doing a forced sale to the second rancher at a drastically reduced price, who now has just increased the value of his own property multifold. Under the basis of pure trespass, the second rancher might be seen to have the right to do as he wants with his property and granting or denying access to his property. Courts in these cases have looked at the history of access for the property and ruled in favor of the first rancher. But they've ruled the other way against public access in a lot of the environmental/wilderness/wild animal passage vs public cases. Thus the Hague's and Bundy's in Nevada and eminent domain abuses in city/developer vs private owners. Even dozens of cases that are happening now for off-the-grid property owners vs public/private utility.
Jan
Jan
Plus, I would like to contest the idea that the government can rewrite the rules at whim - such as the EPA is doing with ponds and puddles. If the government changes the rules to take something away from you, you are at least entitled to recompense - or a good fight. People who have ponds in their backyards have now forfeit their right to control those waters - and the government has taken over that right. They get nothing in return.
How many people in the US have homes along rivers? Along shores? The statement 'barring access to navigable waters is not allowed' makes it sound as if this is an eternal commandment. But I recall it not being so when I was a child. So, in the past, a property owner along the coast (or a river, or a lake) was considered to actually have bought the beach and own it. (As I mentioned before, I dimly recall the grownups saying that we used to own some of the ocean - 100 yards out or something like that.) These are all laws that are made by mankind, and subject to reinterpretation, revision, and argument.
Jan
The roads down to the beach are in many cases the remnants of the Old Coast Road that have been kept open by the property owners for the past 3 generations so that they could get down to their own beach. That is what this article is about - the continued erosion of the property rights of the land owners.
Insofar as 'breaking a leg' is concerned, the Sierra Club actually got passed a pro-property owner law back in about 2002: as long as you do not invite a person onto your land or represent that your land is safe, if someone who is trespassing is injured you are protected from suit. (They did this so that people would be more willing to let hikers cross their property.)
Jan