Pre-emptive use of force

Posted by $ servo75 1 year, 6 months ago to Philosophy
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I just got done watching a debate from 1998 between Leonard Piekoff (Objectivist), Phyllis Schaffly (Conservative) and a liberal whose name I forget, but this was from 1998 when liberal meant something very different. I had a bit of cognitive dissonance when the subject turned to foreign policy, more specifically Iran. To my surprise, all of them agreed that use of force against Iran was justified. Piekoff's answer was basically, that Iran has pushed our button and provoked so many times that we ought to give them an ultimatum and if they don't take it then "let the bombs fly over Tehran."

In the moment I couldn't have been more shocked if Bernie Sanders proposed a Balanced Budget Amendment. I mean my knowledge of Objectivism is largely limited to Atlas Shrugged where foreign policy isn't discussed. The prohibition of force was that one can't use force except in self-defense and government can't use force against someone who has done nothing wrong. But it made me think about force between governments. Piekoff's opinion seemed to be that if a foreign government acts in a provocative manner against the US (allies too??) then this justifies pre-emptive military force. Still it's food for thought.


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  • Posted by j_IR1776wg 1 year, 6 months ago
    You have touched upon the least clear expression of Ayn Rand’s many absolutist positions viz. what constitutes the initiation of physical force? If someone is standing in front of you waving a baseball bat threatening to kill you, has he “initiated” physical violence? Or must you wait until bat contacts skull to decide?

    Are you justified in using deadly force against this threatening thug? Or have you “initiated” physical force?
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    • Posted by $ jbrenner 1 year, 6 months ago
      This is the central set of questions that lawyers are re-defining reasonable answers to when it comes to "Stand your ground" laws.
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      • Posted by j_IR1776wg 1 year, 6 months ago
        Yes, I agree. “Stand your ground” is an attempt to answer the question “does an individual have an absolute right to the ownership of property he has earned or inherited?” If so, then it must include deadly force to protect said property.

        George Mason in his Virginia Declaration of Rights wrote: “Section 1. That all men are by nature equally free and independent and have certain inherent rights, of which, when they enter into a state of society, they cannot, by any compact, deprive or divest their posterity; namely, the enjoyment of life and liberty, with the means of acquiring and possessing property, and pursuing and obtaining happiness and safety.” I think this includes deadly retaliatory force on threat.
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    • Posted by $ 1 year, 6 months ago
      Good question. That's where you see that any philosophy, no matter how good or bad we may think it is, which claims to have an absolute truth about everything, is lying. By the way my answers to your questions are: Not technically, no way, yes, and technically but he deserved it.
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    • Posted by Dobrien 1 year, 6 months ago
      If someone is standing in front of me threatening to hit me with a bat , the last thing on my mind will be
      What did Ayn Rand thinQ about my dilemma. That said a strong offense and capability to deliver its wrath is the strength part of Peace through Strength. If you know When life and limb are involved prevention is the only logical action to take.
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  • Posted by mhubb 1 year, 6 months ago
    Iran has committed many Acts of War against the United States and Israel

    but clearly we have a MAJOR trust issue with the government of the United States these days, going far back

    i trusted Trump and Reagan to make these decisions

    no one else now (i'm not believing that Bush knew of 9/11, but clearly i believe some in the Deep State did know of it and allowed it to happen, the Bush family attacks on Trump are 100% unacceptable and that they now hang out with clinton and 0bama means they are traitors)



    as for democrats, i still believe that JFK loved the United States, i cannot say that about any other democrat for the last 100 years
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    • Posted by freedomforall 1 year, 6 months ago
      9/11 ciu bono
      and who lost?
      Caused by the US federal government, like the Maine, Pearl Harbor,
      Gulf of Tonkin (which would never have happened if JFK had not been
      assassinated by agents of the federal government. Again cui bono?)
      The federal government (Deep State and its allies) has been creating
      war for a long time so it could further the goal of greater power and
      wealth and the subjugation of humanity.
      As for Piekoff, where in the Constitution does it say the federal
      government has the power to attack foreign governments who have not
      attacked Americans? Yet the federal government has been doing this
      repeatedly for over a century.
      Would I rather Iran not develop nuclear capability? Yes
      Do I condone acts of war by the federal government to prevent it? No
      Unprovoked acts of war do not make Americans safer.
      Acts of war are always about wealth and power, never about safety.
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  • Posted by Dobrien 1 year, 6 months ago
    Iran is just another nation whose government was infiltrated by people the Prussia MotherWEFers wanted in power. These are the exact same people. Who have infiltrated our country. At this point in history we have a choice . We can fight this information warfare with the Truth or we can be run over by a genocidal globalist cabal that is hell bent on destroying anything that is good. Attacking these deletes is underway and it is in response to their murderous ways.
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