18

a different thought about AS3 and Dagny

Posted by $ winterwind 10 years, 3 months ago to Movies
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I just attended AS3 the 3rd time and I finally, FINALLY had a piece that had been bothering me go "click" inside my head.
I was one of the people who said "why so much driving around in the gulch? What's going on? I've seen a tree, I've seen lots of trees, enough scenery already!"
What I saw last night was Dagny regaining the joy in her own life - she went from "Certainly not - I'll pay my own way!" to open, smiling, meeting people and talking with them at the market, walking through the woods with John, talking in front on the fire - and I saw the joy of a child eagerly discovering things. I saw her soaring joy, which had been bending while she was "in the world", spring back and start to support her again.
It was glorious.
Thank you again.


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  • Posted by $ jlc 10 years, 3 months ago
    My take on it is that non-liberals have often been lambasted for being anti-ecology. (Whereas the truth is closer to at least some of that set being anti-EPA and pro-EPA over regulation.) The emphasis on nature I took to be a statement that the Gulch is pro-nature and that capitalism does not equate to clear cut forests and concrete wastelands.

    Still, it was a bit overmuch. This is the part where, literally and metaphorically, Dagny is 'carried through scene after scene'.

    Jan
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    • Posted by ewv 10 years, 3 months ago
      There is a lot more to opposing the viro movement, previously known as the Ecology movement into the 1970s, than EPA regulations. The viros regard 'nature' as an intrinsic value higher than human rights and values.

      The viro movement arose in the violent collectivist New Left of the late 1960s and 1970s. See Ayn Rand's article on the Anti-Industrial Revolution in her anthology Return of the Primitives (formerly the New Left and the Anti-Industrial Revolution) where she nailed the essence of the movement long before most people knew what was going on.

      The viros have been ideologically inspired by the Ecology movement founded by an Hegelian inspired biologist in 19th century Germany. It reified 'ecosystems' into organic wholes and envisioned a society ruled by bureaucrats called 'scientists' whose permissions were required even for what we regard as normal activities of human life. They were obsessed with man's impact on 'ecosystems' and opposed industrialization. The back to the land movement of the early ecologists was incorporated by the Nazis and the early Green movement.

      The viros today are using the power of the National Park Service, the US Fish and Wildlife Service, the US Forest Service, and more state agencies than you can count to deny private property rights and impose progressively more government land 'ownership' for preservationism and social controls.

      The 'environment', is your surroundings, i.e., everything. They are an ideological movement for collectivist control of the environment, i.e., everything, and therefore everyone. Normal people can appreciate scenery without going berserk and becoming ideological nature-worshiping, misanthropic nihilists posing as concerned only about 'pollution'. The viro movement is much worse and much deeper than abusive EPA regulation.
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  • Posted by NealS 10 years, 3 months ago
    winterwind, The ASIII Gulch and Dagny's reaction impressed me the same as you. It's amazing how we fear the unknown, changing where we live, how we live, what we eat, what we do, who we leave behind. Would it not be wonderful to literally go to the Gulch and get a fresh start? I'd go in a minute, especially today.
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  • Posted by JHoward88 10 years, 3 months ago
    I went to see AS3 downtown Seattle last night at 7:40 PM... there were only 3 others in the theater, but I was proud to be there... and to me, it was absolutely perfect. The scenes of beauty, the musical soundtrack, really every part of the film - in my opinion - did the book justice. The greatness of AS3 was that it didn't really try hard come off as the third part of a sequel. It stood just fine on its own, which is good. It's kind of like watching a home video of your family. When it's about something you love and care about, you don't really care about the fact that it's actually not a perfect production. Same deal. I've read the book in its entirety, so I can fill in the blanks in my mind. The movie adds a visual to accompany the story I already know well. To those who are just looking for entertainment, I must concede that AS3 isn't the best film ever made... but for the audience which it is intended for... for the people who love its message, it is splendid and glorious.
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  • Posted by $ Ripside 10 years, 3 months ago
    Not so different than when she spent some time in her cabin. I'm sure there was some intention to symbolize how peaceful and relaxed life in the Gulch was, a juxtaposition to her life as a COO.
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    • Posted by ewv 10 years, 3 months ago
      At the cabin she could not sit back and 'peacefully' absorb scenery. She had to be productive at something and was depicted as taking on all kinds of projects, like building paths requiring moving large rocks, etc.
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  • Posted by cranedragon 10 years, 3 months ago
    I agree totally. While I dislike many of the tradeoffs, like the absence of Hank, the short shrift given to Cheryl's trauma, etc. -- the simple joy that Dagny finds in the valley, and the month of growing attraction and romantic tension between her and Galt is very important to the final arc of the movie. Remember the moment in the book when she asks, "What are you all doing here?" and the answer is, simply, "Living."

    The juxtaposition between her dystopian life in NYC and the simple beauty of life in the valley is an important element to the movie experience and the understanding of Dagny's journey and the entire point of the book and the movie. Life can be simple and straightforward -- learn, choose, produce, and to everyone else -- get out of our way!
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  • Posted by peterchunt 10 years, 3 months ago
    It was almost like the director was trying fill in time, as half the time “driving around the Gulch” would have been sufficient to get the message across of a tranquil and peaceful place. I made an earlier comment that I thought the early part of the film was too slow, and the latter part too melodramatic.I would have liked to hear more from John Galt, in his speech, as in AS it consisted of an awful lot of pages. I suppose in a movie that would not go over to well?
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    • Posted by gerstj 10 years, 3 months ago
      This is the part of the movie that has been criticized by many as too slow and hard to sit through. It was too much like an idyllic view of a Swiss valley and the Von Trapps were just off camera. I hope the DVD is reedited so it is better integrated and thematic with the rest of the movie.
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      • Posted by ewv 10 years, 3 months ago
        Didn't it depict the technological innovations, including energy production and a copper mine, and the joy of the creative production? The Valley was not a place where people sat around.
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    • Posted by TheMysterian 10 years, 3 months ago
      I think Ayn Rand's insistance on including Galt's entire speech was a major factor that kept the movie from being made for so long,
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      • Posted by ewv 10 years, 3 months ago
        Ayn Rand did not insist on the entire speech being in the movie and that had nothing to do with it not being made sooner.
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        • Posted by LetsShrug 10 years, 3 months ago
          Yes she did.
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          • Posted by ewv 10 years, 3 months ago
            After her experience with the Fountainhead movie she wanted total editorial control over an AS movie, not the entire speech in the movie. She insisted on Roark's (shorter) speech being in the Fountainhead movie, not Galt's in AS, which she knew was much too long for a movie, and not the right approach.

            In a 1980 interview she said the movie (in the form of a TV series) "will make the ideas more vivid. More dramatic. Literature, a book, is very abstract art, probably the most abstract art. And a television show would be the perfect vehicle to concretize the meaning of the book's events. Not philosophical teaching so much, as the overall, what I call, 'sense of life', the basic abstraction of the book. To tell people what kind of world it would be. not tell them. Show them."

            So she saw a movie as complementing the book, bringing out the basic sense of life through illustrating it in action, not a different form of presenting the book.
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            • Posted by LetsShrug 10 years, 3 months ago
              I believer there is a part in "The Prophecy of Ayn Rand" that talks about this very topic. She was giving the green light to have AS made into a movie. Yes, she wanted creative control which included the entire Galt speech or she was going to walk. And she did.
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              • Posted by ewv 10 years, 3 months ago
                If that film said that then it tells you a lot about its accuracy and confusion. It was "independently produced" in favor of Ayn Rand, but not produced by those who know the most about her life. In none of Ayn Rand's own writing is there any indication that she wanted or thought it would be practical to put the entire Galt's speech into a movie. She understood and spoke of the difference between a novel and a film.
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                • Posted by LetsShrug 10 years, 3 months ago
                  Well the director who was working with her was pissed off about it and the interview was with him so maybe he's full of shit and speaking out against himself....??
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                  • Posted by ewv 10 years, 3 months ago
                    Speaking out against Ayn Rand with exaggerations and worse? Yes. It happens all the time.

                    There were several attempts to produce a movie with different people and there has never been any indication that she wanted the entire AS Galt's speech read in a film which she saw as a way to "show" and "not philosophical teaching". Creative control over what was used from the speech in what way is not a demand to put that whole speech on film.

                    I don't remember if any of the attempts at a movie reached the point of directing shooting, let alone anything near the point of Galt's speech where a director, as opposed to pre-production planning, would argue about it. You would have to know the context before accepting an accusation like that from an angry detractor.

                    The various short speeches are another matter, and maybe she did not want someone taking something out she wanted included. She had good reasons for what she wanted included, based on both her philosophical integrity and Hollywood experience; unlike the typical directors with different goals and standards. I haven't seen the script she wrote for the first third of AS; that would tell us a lot about what she was doing with dialog from shorter 'speeches'.
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                    • Posted by LetsShrug 10 years, 3 months ago
                      Why are you harping on me about something I saw in an interview? She wanted the whole speech, the director said no way, they had a split over it and that was that. Go watch it for yourself. I'm just the messenger... sheeshorama.
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                      • Posted by ewv 10 years, 3 months ago
                        You aren't responsible for what someone else said, but what he said is not true and you should not let him mislead you.

                        TheMysterian said "I think Ayn Rand's insistance on including Galt's entire speech was a major factor that kept the movie from being made for so long" and you agreed with him, saying "Yes she did".

                        It would not be possible to read a speech for 4 hours in a movie. The idea is preposterous, and so is the accusation that Ayn Rand held up the movie demanding it. None of it is remotely plausible. Does it make any sense to you? This is how malicious, anti-Ayn Rand rumors are started and spread and you shouldn't be misled into having a part of it.

                        There were several attempts to produce AS with different major producers and the key issue was always over control of the script, not including a 4 hour speech. The final deal that was in fact underway for a miniseries with NBC required that if Ayn Rand did not approve the script after working with them on it she would correct it herself. The project was was well underway but was killed in 1977 when Fred Silverman took over NBC and cancelled the project because he didn't like it. It was not over including a 4 hour speech in a movie.

                        Likewise for a previous major promising agreement she thought she had in 1972 with Albert Ruddy, who very much had wanted to produce AS. She publicly announced that she had sold the rights while retaining the right of approval of the script, stating that "for almost fifteen years, I had refused to sell Atlas Shrugged except on condition that I would have the right of approval of the film script". Ruddy reneged on the agreement. Ayn Rand did not walk out because they wouldn't include a 4 hour speech in a movie.


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                        • Posted by LetsShrug 10 years, 3 months ago
                          Holy hell. You're like dog with a bone. Sigh. The rant that ruddy goes on is about not wanting a long speech. He wanted her to relinquish creative control because he wanted a shorter speech. She wouldn't let go' he said I'll wait til you die then. She said I'll put it in my will that you can't have it. He said I'll get someone else to get it for me. The end. We're you there? We're you the word counter? Are you ruddy? Why are you so hung up on this? Rand wanted control of the speech and wasn't going to compromise. Can I slap you now?
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                          • Posted by ewv 10 years, 3 months ago
                            You said that Ayn Rand held up the movie from being made because she wanted the whole speech in the movie. Does it make sense to you that Ayn Rand would want or demand that a speech be read for 4 hours in a movie that lasts a few hours? It's ridiculous. It's not even remotely plausible.

                            That claim is contrary to anything Ayn Rand said or Ruddy said in his previous interview in which he described how they had agreed on how much the novel would have to be cut back and what the story would be. The studio would not give her control over the script regardless of speeches or anything else. Ayn Rand did not want or demand a 4 hour speech. It had nothing to do with holding a movie up for decades over reading a 4 hour speech in a movie.

                            This is what Michael Jaffee, the NBC producer who was working with her on the agreed on project, with her in control of the script, said about constructing the story for the movie:

                            "The principle issue was that you were not going to be able to make a movie of Atlas Shrugged and include everything from the book. There just wasn't enough time; it would take thirty hours. She, in fact, sat down and read the entire John Galt speech and timed it. It was four hours and twenty minutes or something, so she knew you weren't going to take three nights on TV to read John Galt's speech. So she said, 'You have to find a dramatic equivalent for that. But I am going to edit that speech for you, so don't worry, and I will get that speech down to three to seven minutes. I'll have to do it; no one else is equipped to do that.'"

                            "I was always fond of talking about reducing the speech because everybody says, 'Oh, everything's sacrosanct.' Well, things are sacrosanct, but she was smart and thoughtful about what things to make sacrosanct."

                            There was no split over her "wanting the whole speech" and no such demand held up the movie for decades. The key issue in the negotiations was always final approval of the entire script, which she insisted on and got in the NBC project until Silverman came in and killed it because he didn't want the project. Jaffe: "When Fred Silverman took over the network, he hated the project, so he cancelled it."

                            Whatever Rudy said in the Prophesy film you shouldn't be helping to spread the story that Ayn Rand prevented the movie from being made over such a preposterous accusation as her demanding a 4 hour speech, or anything remotely like that, in a movie.
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                            • Posted by LetsShrug 10 years, 3 months ago
                              Christ almighty!!! Unclealready!!! Me and my terrible rumor starting that the world is hinged on. Ruddy never mentioned a length...it was implied by their parting ways. Good NESS. Unhand me...
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                            • Posted by $ hash 10 years, 3 months ago
                              Yep it's absurd to think that Rand would have wanted to keep the entire speech in a movie.
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                              • Posted by LetsShrug 10 years, 3 months ago
                                And she thought it absurd to let others butcher her work. So I didn't think it was that far fetched after hearing what Ruddy said. If they had agreed on HER shortening it then why didn't they then make the movie??
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                          • Posted by plusaf 10 years, 3 months ago
                            ewv, a page of script dialogue runs an average of about one minute on the screen. If Galt's roughly 60 pages of text fit onto one script page per "book page," it would have added about one hour to the movie, and for just about all moviegoers today, it would have been too long.

                            Personally, after about two hours, I can go into 'left-brain overflow' with just about any kind of inputs. And I've got some OCD!
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                            • Posted by ewv 10 years, 1 month ago
                              Try reading a page of it from the book yourself and time it. You could read the whole thing in an hour, but a dramatic reading would be much longer.
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  • Posted by Bobhummel 10 years, 3 months ago
    Not only that Winterwind, the joy of creating the ore train line was evident until she crushed her own joy by falling back into the crushing grasp of the looters in her own mind.
    I really enjoyed the entire movie. They capture all the essentials of the book.
    Cheers,
    Bob
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