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Government

Posted by $ kbillado 3 years, 9 months ago to Politics
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I believe in the freedom of humans to by free and to follow their self interest and be self sufficient and produce something that people need , however if their self interest is to be dependent on the producers how do we discourage this? Some sort of government is necessary, am I right. This is what I believe, and I know that I may get some push back on this. I am a Gunsmith and I believe that to protect the rights of man an armed populace will prevent tyrants from enslaving the populace, it is necessary for a free state to allow their people to arm themselves. As Thomas Jefferson said, when the government is armed you have tyranny, when the people are armed you have liberty. I would hope that Ayn Rand would recognize that man has the right , whether natural or God given to defend themselves and their loved ones. I have watched the way that followers of Ayn Rand have castigated one another and I am appalled at your lack of understanding of what freedom of thought means. Kbillado


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  • Posted by $ blarman 3 years, 9 months ago
    Is government necessary to protect rights? Yes. This includes a law-enforcement mechanism to adjudicate and punish theft, dishonesty, murder, etc.

    The slippery-slope comes with the more general uses of government which are ostensibly "general welfare" questions. This is where things can quickly devolve away from the necessary and proper functions into the intrusive functions that begin to introduce coercion of taxation, etc.

    As to personal protection, while Rand doesn't specifically address the Second Amendment in her writings, I don't see anything which contradicts with it. Personally, I think that everyone has the responsibility first and foremost to protect themselves and that the portion of that responsibility we delegate to the government is that portion necessary to protect rights and no more. It should also be noted that the first defense is against the overreach of government, not even necessarily infringements by other individuals.
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  • Posted by Owlsrayne 3 years, 9 months ago
    the Gulch is one one of the few remaining forum on the internet that caters to the freedom of thought so long it relates to Ayn Rand's philosophy of Objectivism and her novels. Unfortunately, today what is occurring is a mashup of "Atlas Shrugged" and Orwell's "1984". Even firearms on play a small roll in Atlas Shrugged by the character of Ragnar Danneskjold.
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  • Posted by $ gharkness 3 years, 9 months ago
    You are appalled that WE lack understanding of the meaning of freedom of thought? After being here for less than three months? Yeah, I'm gonna need some examples of that.

    Also, I'd be curious as to where you are looking for Ms. Rand's position on guns? It's not hard to find. I would suggest you do some googling, and THEN if you find something you like, or you find something you DON'T like, come back and you will have something to discuss. Otherwise, I might have to be "appalled" at your lack of ability to learn things for yourself without having to be spoon-fed.

    That said, it's always nice to meet new people in the Gulch, especially a 2A devotee, but each of us is required to carry our own weight.
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    • Posted by $ 3 years, 9 months ago
      What I am appalled at is the lack of civility by some of the responders and that for people who believe in FREEDOM that you get snarky when someone has a different opinion than yours.
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      • Posted by $ gharkness 3 years, 9 months ago
        Unless you've done some real digging and gone back many months, you haven't begun to see some of the uncivil people we have here in the Gulch. There are only a few, but hoo boy, they can strike fast and hard. And their main thrust is: Ayn said it - so it's true. No discussion allowed. You'll see. It's still a great place to be.
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        • Posted by $ 3 years, 9 months ago
          Thanks for the warning, but does not the incivility violate the rules set forth by this platform.
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          • Posted by $ gharkness 3 years, 9 months ago
            One would think so....however things don’t always work exactly as one would think.

            But still, my opinion is that the uncivil ones are in the minority - AND I haven’t seen them around for a while. Let’s just concentrate on enjoying the discussion.
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            • Posted by $ 3 years, 9 months ago
              I agree, I once had a coworker tell me that what America needed was a benevolent dictator, and I asked him what comes when the dictator dies? Do we have the 20th century motor company after the owner dies? I think the founders of this country did not take into account the fact that there is always going to be someone out there who is going to game the system no matter what form of government there is.
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              • Posted by CircuitGuy 3 years, 9 months ago
                I used to think that the Constitution was flawed because it didn't have "teeth" to make people respect liberty. Now I think a Constitution and any thing the Founders came up with is of limited value compared to having a population that understands the importance of liberty.
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  • Posted by $ Commander 3 years, 9 months ago
    Rand: The Objectivist's Ethics, 1961, UW Madison
    The full essay can be found in The Virtue of Selfishness. http://sqapo.com/complete_textrandthe_virtue_of_selfishness.htm

    "The basic political principle of the Objectivist ethics is: no man may initiate the use of physical force against others. No man - or group or society or government - has the right to assume the role of a criminal and initiate the use of physical compulsion against any man. Men have the right to use physical force only in retaliation and only against those who initiate its use. The ethical principle involved is simple and clear-cut: it is the difference between murder and self-defense. A holdup man seeks to gain a value, wealth, by killing his victim; the victim does not grow richer by killing a holdup man. The principle is: no man may obtain any values from others by resorting to physical force.

    The only proper, moral purpose of a government is to protect man’s rights, which means: to protect him from physical violence - to protect his right to his own life, to his own liberty, to his own property and to the pursuit of his own happiness. Without property rights, no other rights are possible.

    Hands, club, knife, gun.....?
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    • Posted by GaryL 3 years, 9 months ago
      Sorry but I don't see governments "Moral Purpose" as protecting "Man's Rights" because in all reality this government is doing a piss poor job! I see protecting me from physical harm as my job and mine alone and if I left it up to the government I would be long dead. Instead I see this government as an entity that believes it should be protecting me from myself and to that end they can kiss my ass.
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      • Posted by $ Commander 3 years, 9 months ago
        There is no present government; a body of elected representatives, that is moral. The Objectivist's Ethics is a clear statement on this subject.
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        • Posted by GaryL 3 years, 9 months ago
          On this we agree!
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          • Posted by $ Commander 3 years, 9 months ago
            For nearly 10 years I have applied "TOE" to Dec of Ind., US Const., and Universal Dec of Human Rights. All fail the objectivity of what Rand offered in the essay.
            Without the definition of Values being an Absolute to Life it's all rhetoric. If I jump to any of Ayn's other works before assimilating "TOE" there is much more subjectivity in interpretation. I have "grounded" my thinking in context to her essay and a 1944 interpretation of Tao te' Ching by witter Bynner; The Way Of Life, According to Laotzu. These two "works" have reduced my uncertainty regarding my thought processes and action more profoundly than any others. I am healthier and happier than at any time previous in my life. It was worth the work!
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            • Posted by GaryL 3 years, 9 months ago
              The notion that the US Constitution and the Declaration of Independence are "Living and breathing" written documents subject to changing with the times is totally ridiculous in my mind. Our founding fathers, as old as they have become, were some of the most intelligent individuals to ever have walked the face of this earth. Now what we have are a bunch of legal minds taught by a bunch of other "Legal Minds" all with an agenda that simply fits their prescribed narrative based on who taught them. I believe Ayn based much of her beliefs on the basic premises of Tribalism. God takes care of those who take care of themselves and for those who are unable for some legitimate reason. Lazy doesn't cut it and stupid by choice gets shunned. Taking care of the young, old and weak of mind or body is our ax to grind but nothing in this mentions anything about race, religion or the color of one's skin. Equal yes as long as you carry your weight and the weight of some of the rest who honestly need help.
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              • Posted by $ Commander 3 years, 9 months ago
                To support, empirically, for you, to make a decision upon,
                "The notion that the US Constitution and the Declaration of Independence are "Living and breathing" written documents subject to changing with the times is totally ridiculous in my mind. Our founding fathers, as old as they have become, were some of the most intelligent individuals to ever have walked the face of this earth. Now what we have are a bunch of legal minds taught by a bunch of other "Legal Minds" all with an agenda that simply fits their prescribed narrative based on who taught them."

                Excepted from Lochner v New York, a labor dispute, Justice Holmes dissent: https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremeco...

                "49
                General propositions do not decide concrete cases. The decision will depend on a judgment or intuition more subtle than any articulate major premise. But I think that the proposition just stated, if it is accepted, will carry us far toward the end. Every opinion tends to become a law.
                [ I think that the word 'liberty,' in the 14th Amendment, is perverted when it is held to prevent the natural outcome of a dominant opinion,]
                unless it can be said that a rational and fair man necessarily would admit that the statute proposed would infringe fundamental principles as they have been understood by the traditions of our people and our law."

                The bracketed portion of the "dissent" has been used as Constitutional interpretation as a fundamental for law schooling. And since, we have descended into legal precedent upon precedent.....as Liberty has been formally subjugated to the whim of the populous or the State.

                I hope you find this as unnerving and ill begotten as I. Holmes formally separated The Declaration of Independence from The US Constitution.
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      • Posted by $ gharkness 3 years, 9 months ago
        Just because a government does not fulfill its moral purpose (as our hasn't for years and years - if ever) that doesn't mean that is not the correct moral purpose for the government to fulfill. Your last sentence, though - I 100% agree. As an aside, in the last year (though probably long before that ) liberals are screeching that the main purpose of government is to "keep us all SAFE."

        I am beginning to HATE the word "Safe." Especially when it comes to life, SAFE doesn't exist!
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        • Posted by GaryL 3 years, 9 months ago
          Yup! Ask yourself and all who you know. Did you feel safe with Obama, Trump and now Xiden?
          I did agree with one of them on numerous policies but not a single one of them gave me a chill up my leg that made me feel any safer. Here at my place I have never actually felt unsafe except for government intrusion.
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