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Star Trek Prime Directive Meets Ayn Rand

Posted by dbhalling 10 years, 3 months ago to Philosophy
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First of all let me say that I cannot believe I am doing an analysis of the Star Trek prime directive. The prime directive states:
“As the right of each sentient species to live in accordance with its normal cultural evolution is considered sacred, no Star Fleet personnel may interfere with the healthy development of alien life and culture. Such interference includes the introduction of superior knowledge, strength, or technology to a world whose society is incapable of handling such advantages wisely. Star Fleet personnel may not violate this Prime Directive, even to save their lives and/or their ship unless they are acting to right an earlier violation or an accidental contamination of said culture. This directive takes precedence over any and all other considerations, and carries with it the highest moral obligation.”

The associated prohibitions are given below (according to Jbrenner)

1. Providing knowledge of technologies or science
2. Taking actions to generally affect a society's overall development
3. Taking actions which support one faction within a society over another
4. Helping a society escape the negative consequences of its own actions
5. Helping a society escape a natural disaster known to the society, even if inaction would result in a society's extinction.
6. Subverting or avoiding the application of a society's laws
7. Interfering in the internal affairs of a society


What would Ayn Rand say about the prime directive. I bet her first question would be what is a sentient species? According to dictionary “sentient” means “able to perceive or feel things.” Well cows, cats, dogs, and many other species can perceive or feel things, in fact much simpler organisms would fit this definition. Based on this definition Rand would state that only rational beings have rights. Rand defined the hierarchy of knowledge integration as sensation, precepts, and conceptual. She explains it perceptual in this example.

“An animal is guided, not merely by immediate sensations, but by percepts. Its actions are not single, discrete responses to single, separate stimuli, but are directed by an integrated awareness of the perceptual reality confronting it. It is able to grasp the perceptual concretes immediately present and it is able to form automatic perceptual associations, but it can go no further.”

My guess is that Rand would then ask what is “normal cultural evolution.” Is it normal cultural evolution to allow Rachel Carson to convince countries to ban DDT and cause 100 million deaths? Is it normal cultural evolution to allow Mao to institute the cultural revolution that will starve over 30 million people to death? There is no such thing a normal cultural evolution. But it rings of Marxist ideas of a scientific progression of society.
Then Rand would ask why normal cultural evolution is considered sacred. According to the dictionary sacred means “connected with God (or the gods) or dedicated to a religious purpose and so deserving veneration.” Rand would reject anything based on an appeal to a deity. The proof of the first sentence of the prime directive rests on an appeal to faith, not reason.
It is clear the Prime Directive is based on faith, not reason and is immoral from the first sentence. I will not take on the rest of the directive but I will look at the prohibitions. The first prohibition is “Providing knowledge of technologies or science.” Given that directive was directed to species that are “able to perceive or feel things” this is almost meaningless. Most species that able to perceive are not able to understand or take advantage of knowledge.
But what about rational beings? Why would you not provide knowledge of technologies or science? Does this mean we cannot teach our kids science and technology? That would clearly be immoral. Your objection might be that they are within our culture, but what about African cultures? Should we have not introduced DDT, or steam engines, or the Internet? While we have no obligation to introduce these sciences and technologies, to purposely prohibit them would be immoral.
All the prohibitions and the prime directives are based group think (and written by Hollywood TV writers!). The word society is mentioned nine times in the Prime Directive and in the prohibitions. Individual is not mentioned once. Societies are based on a collection of people and only have rights based on the rights of the individuals, who make up the society, but none separate from them.
Start Trek’s Prime Directive is an inherently Socialist Ideal and Evil.



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  • Posted by Technocracy 10 years, 3 months ago
    The Prime Directive is a Starfleet directive, and a policy statement for the UFP as an overarching organization more than accepted policy for every member planet. Contrary example: Andorians.

    The UFP is setup to be the fantasy successor for the current UN. Fantasy successor I deem it, since it appears to have actually had some effectiveness unlike the UN.

    I think it would be more their equivalent of default ROEs than anything else.

    Certainly not a founding principle.
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  • Posted by xthinker88 10 years, 3 months ago
    Some of your comments do not at all follow from the prime directive. Such as "Does this mean we cannot teach our kids science and technology?" What? ANYTHING that occurs within our society/ species would be considered our natural evolution so none of your arguments apply internally to a species.

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    • Posted by 10 years, 3 months ago
      Where do you draw the line? Two people have made the argument that the PD is based on the Monroe Doctrine and should guide US policy towards Iraq.

      What about another species that is rational? The PD just says society. What is the logic between requiring no teaching of other rational beings, but allowing it within our species? It doesn't matter how you cut it, the PD does not make sense.
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      • Posted by xthinker88 10 years, 3 months ago
        The PD is about not interfering in the development (or lack thereof) of other species on other planets encountered during space travel.

        It has absolutely nothing whatsoever to say about our own species or our own planet. There is no logical inconsistency here.

        Any comparison to any previous earth-bound situation will be lacking by definition. That said, when I'm in France, I need to follow French laws. That does not have any implication whatsoever as to what laws ought to be passed in the US.

        There is a pretty clear demarcation here logically (other planets/species vs our planet/species). I'm not really sure how you can't see that.
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        • Posted by khalling 10 years, 3 months ago
          x, this all started because people were making comparisons between the PD and foreign policy goals. That is the point of the post. Treating other societies as different species, I agree is absurd. The PD does not apply. However, we can still have a valid discussion on the moral and rational aspects of the PD. The idea that you are not "allowed" to influence another "species" whom are rational beings would be immoral. Individuals have the right to trade and share knowledge. It's how all cultures advance. Boycotting Cuba hasn't made a difference in spreading capitalism to Cuba. Trading with China-wow-capitalism has a foothold now. The PD would be a shitty foreign policy plan.
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          • Posted by xthinker88 10 years, 3 months ago
            I agree then. The PD makes no sense when applied to any situation on earth. It can be evaluated with regard to morality in relation to contact with other species in space.

            To some extent though it seems that PD most closely resembles the isolationism strategy proposed during the 30's. Rather than the Monroe doctrine which, instead of causing non interference, merely insured that ONLY the US could interfere in the western hemisphere.
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          • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 3 months ago
            Correct, but it is necessary for each participant to be wary of what they share and how. I don't know that you'd want to sell a nuclear bomb to a newly discovered species, even one based on pacifist ideology - or perhaps especially not one based on a pacifist ideology. They would have no concept of the destructive power and might do something unintentionally.

            The biggest problem that I have with the PD is that it is based on a fundamental tenet that interaction is bad and "unnatural." What poppycock. What would be unnatural would be to be kept in a fishbowl. Observed but not interacted with.
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            • Posted by $ jbrenner 10 years, 3 months ago
              Robbie wrote "It is necessary for each participant to be wary of what they share and how. I don't know that you'd want to sell a nuclear bomb to a newly discovered species, even one based on pacifist ideology - or perhaps especially not one based on a pacifist ideology. They would have no concept of the destructive power and might do something unintentionally." This is the main point of the Prime Directive. When a society or an individual "comes of age", with the proper virtues in place and responsibility exhibited, that society or individual can be welcomed into the trade community.
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          • Posted by $ jbrenner 10 years, 3 months ago
            Cuba is unworthy of the benefits of capitalism based on their rejection of it. When a society embraces capitalism, then it becomes worthy of its benefits. As for China, they realized the error of their ways, and as they move toward a society based on honoring AR values, they will also reap the benefits. The key step is that the less advanced society has to WANT to improve. That is what makes them worthy of invitation into a productive society.
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            • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 3 months ago
              Cuba as a nation, but what about individual Cubans? I'd hate to have to bear the burden of what has been foisted upon us by our current political leadership - most of which I vehemently oppose.
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              • Posted by $ jbrenner 10 years, 3 months ago
                You either have to a) bear the burden of what your government foists upon you, b) not only fight, but WIN, over that government, c) leave and start a new society, or d) shut up and sit down. A) is unacceptable to anyone here in the Gulch. D) is not typical behavior for Gulchers either. There are some who choose B). C) is the answer for the rest of us like me. I will welcome individual Cubans, Iranians, Chinese, or anyone else in Atlantis IF they share our values.
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                • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 3 months ago
                  I disagree. There is a time honored history of those who push back against government by non-violent, and sometimes violent, opposition. Not always with a "military" victory, but a moral one that changed opinion.
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                  • Posted by $ jbrenner 10 years, 3 months ago
                    OK, point accepted. I would have included that under item b), but a distinction between violent vs. nonviolent is appropriate. I was referring primarily to winning at the ballot box.
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            • Posted by zagros 10 years, 3 months ago
              The Cuban people are actually quite capitalist. Even Fidel Castro's brother, Raul Castro, is slowly coming to the realization that communism is a failure and needs to be reversed. He just is looking for a way to save face (like the Chinese already figured out how to do). Wait until after his brother dies. I think Cuba will turn against communism faster than you think (just as China and Vietnam have already repudiated it in all but in name). North Korea, on the other hand, is probably a lost cause.
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              • Posted by $ jbrenner 10 years, 3 months ago
                Without a leadership that is tolerant of capitalism, it is just too hard for me to make a 30 year commitment to build a factory, even if the people are willing. It's too easy to nationalize the San Sebastian Mines.
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                • Posted by zagros 10 years, 3 months ago
                  That is why I refuse to invest in the United States.
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                  • Posted by $ jbrenner 10 years, 3 months ago
                    And if you refuse to invest in the US for those reasons, it is hard to invest in anywhere right now. This is precisely my problem, and it is one reason why I am drumming up interest for a physical Atlantis.
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                    • Posted by zagros 10 years, 3 months ago
                      I have investments -- in Hong Kong, Singapore, Australia, New Zealand, and Switzerland (the ONLY free countries, according to the Index of Economic Freedom, left in the world), all of which still respect the rule of law (though Switzerland has been faultering due to bullying from the US). The US is actually below Chile right now in economic freedom (Canada, our neighbor to the north is also a better place to put your money than the US). Look up Index of Economic Freedom from either the Heritage Institute or the Frasier Institute.
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                      • Posted by $ jbrenner 10 years, 3 months ago
                        Hong Kong concerns me a little because it got nationalized as part of China, even though the Chinese are becoming more capitalistic. Although I have minor points with all of the countries you mention, I do agree that they are higher in economic freedom than the US. Some of them, however, are lower ranked with regard to non-economic freedom.
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                        • Posted by zagros 10 years, 3 months ago
                          Ultimately, economic freedom is the only freedom I care about when it comes to investment decisions. When it comes to where I live, on the other hand, . . . .
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                          • Posted by $ jbrenner 10 years, 3 months ago
                            That is why we are game planning for Atlantis, my friend.
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                            • Posted by zagros 10 years, 3 months ago
                              Do you think you will need economics professors in Atlantis?
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                              • Posted by CircuitGuy 10 years, 3 months ago
                                "Do you think you will need economics professors in Atlantis?"
                                I say absolutely. People in Atlantis would be interested in studying scarcity and abundance and how people trade scarce good/services.
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                                • Posted by zagros 10 years, 3 months ago
                                  Good. I was worried that my profession would just be seen as something that everyone knew since I always tell my students that about 99% of economics is simply applied common sense/reason (and the other 1% is simply wrong).
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                                  • jbrenner replied 10 years, 3 months ago
                                  • CircuitGuy replied 10 years, 3 months ago
                              • Posted by $ jbrenner 10 years, 3 months ago
                                How would you like to help run the business side of my business while I run the engineering side? I am a chemical, biomedical, and materials engineering professor at the non-tenure-granting, private Florida Tech. Pay could be a little higher, but it's as good a shrug job as I could ever ask for. Interested in a faculty position? I do have a couple of close friends in our College of Business who are within 1-2 years of retirement.
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            • Posted by khalling 10 years, 3 months ago
              cubans die every year trying to cross to teh US. The government is not the people. capitalism works from the inside out. Give youth the taste of it and...
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              • Posted by $ jbrenner 10 years, 3 months ago
                The individual Cubans need to either flee at the peril of their lives or lead their own equivalent of the American Revolution. Not an easy prospect, but they will appreciate the effort necessary to keep the liberty that they have earned.
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                • Posted by khalling 10 years, 3 months ago
                  how is this any different than communist china?
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                  • Posted by zagros 10 years, 3 months ago
                    The Chinese are actually more capitalist than Americans now, unfortunately. Indeed, did you know that the Chinese government actually FORBID the Hong Kong government from introducing more socialism on the grounds that the promised to preserve the political and ECONOMIC system of Hong Kong for 50 years after Britain turned over sovereignty to them? Did you know that the Chinese government has been lecturing the American government AGAINST increasing its welfare state (granted they are worried that they will not get paid back the money they lent us if we keep expanding government)? The Chinese may have a Communist Party but the Chinese themselves are vibrant capitalists.
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                  • Posted by $ jbrenner 10 years, 3 months ago
                    China is now more capitalistic than most people realize. My university's president and provost told me after they came back from China a couple of years ago that in many ways they were more capitalistic than the US. They also send their college students all over the world to be educated. China is far from a perfect partner, and I would be wary of dealing with China. However, they are definitely making steps in the correct direction. As far as I am concerned, they are in the trial period necessary before being welcomed as full trading partners. The nationalization of Hong Kong still bothers me. In the 1950s, Cuba was a society I would have trusted to do business with, but not since then.
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          • Posted by $ jbrenner 10 years, 3 months ago
            Actually the comparison between the Prime Directive and foreign policy goals was a response to an earlier post regarding whether virtue or freedom must come first. The virtue must come first. "Freed peoples" don't stay free for long.
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            • Posted by zagros 10 years, 3 months ago
              Agreed -- you can't "impose" freedom or democracy, contrary to the Bush doctrine.
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              • Posted by 10 years, 3 months ago
                You don't impose freedom, you just don't allow for thugs. That is not the same thing. Arguing this cannot be done is nonsense. We did it in Japan and Germany. Once the economy takes off most people will find that they have better things to do than spend their time trying to kill each other. It worked in Ireland. Thatcher killed the violence and wise economic policies allowed Ireland to take off economically and now most people have no interest in the IRA or other terrorists organizations.
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                • Posted by $ jbrenner 10 years, 3 months ago
                  On your above comment, db, we agree. However, the discussion started with regard to Afghanistan and Iraq where Bush did try to impose freedom and democracy, and thugs were allowed unfortunately. If a culture is not ready for freedom and democracy, it will be thugs who rise to power, and this illustrates the importance of a trial period before full acceptance into the trading community.
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                  • Posted by 10 years, 3 months ago
                    The problem in Afghanistan is that we did not demand that they setup a Constitution based on Natural Rights. If we had and provided them the transition skills, it would have worked fine. If we are unwilling to do that, then we should just carpet bomb them and say if you do that again we will bomb you even more severely.
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                    • Posted by Hiraghm 10 years, 3 months ago
                      No, the problem in Afghanistan was NOT that we did not demand that they set up a constitution (you capitalize it when referring to the specific document) based on any fictional belief system.

                      The problem with Afghanistan is that we allied with the Northern Alliance instead of conquering the country and appointing an American governor-general to rule it until we'd pacified the rest of the middle east, maybe longer.
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                      • Posted by $ jbrenner 10 years, 3 months ago
                        With a president and a country willing to support such a foreign policy, I could support it, but without leadership from someone with balls of steel, such a foreign policy won't work. It used to work because our presidents did have some big ones.
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              • Posted by $ jbrenner 10 years, 3 months ago
                Imposition of freedom or democracy according to the Bush doctrine was what I was arguing against to start this entire discussion. I am glad you agree, zagros.
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                • Posted by 10 years, 3 months ago
                  repeat comment: You don't impose freedom, you just don't allow for thugs. That is not the same thing. Arguing this cannot be done is nonsense. We did it in Japan and Germany. Once the economy takes off most people will find that they have better things to do than spend their time trying to kill each other. It worked in Ireland. Thatcher killed the violence and wise economic policies allowed Ireland to take off economically and now most people have no interest in the IRA or other terrorists organizations.
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                  • Posted by zagros 10 years, 3 months ago
                    Who are we to determine who are the thugs? So long as they do not affect us, why are we going around the world trying to "make the world safe for democracy" or not allowing freedom for thugs? Indeed, if you look at history, the reason why Hitler rose to power was because of the imposition of terms that were designed to be punative after World War I. With regard to Japan, there really was little stomach among the Japanese after World War II for more militarism but there likely would have been if the US had gone along with its initial plan to try the Emperor for war crimes. The best solution after you carpet bomb a country into the stone ages is to step back and let them pick up the pieces without imposing draconian terms on them or trying to pick winners or losers. Ultimately, it is our desire to reshape the destinies of other countries that lies as the root problem of many of our foreign policy woes.
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                    • Posted by 10 years, 3 months ago
                      The root of our foreign policy woes is the failure to follow reason and more specifically to uphold Natural Rights, which is the values on which this country was founded.
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                      • Posted by zagros 10 years, 3 months ago
                        I disagree. It is up to others to uphold their own natural rights, not for us to uphold them. We need to lead by example. If we do not want others to interfere in our internal affairs, we should not interfere in theirs. Once we decided to become the world policeman, our country devolved into the mess that we have today since it is one small step from "stopping people from doing stupid stuff" (the Obama foreign policy doctrine) to "forcing people to do what you think is right" (the Obama domestic policy doctrine).
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                        • Posted by 10 years, 3 months ago
                          1st of all you missed my point. If we do not uphold Natural Rights in our own country, then the only result of our foreign policy is disaster. 2nd I am not suggesting we have a duty, but if we use military force there are only two logical goals. One is to bomb them until they agree to stop doing whatever caused the problem or two you make sure that they follow a government that respect natural rights. It is in our interest to have other countries that respect natural rights. They are more likely to be useful trading partners and allies if they do.
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                          • Posted by zagros 10 years, 3 months ago
                            If I force them to respect natural rights, they will turn around and disrespect natural rights as soon as they have a chance. I do not believe in "allies". There are no "allies", only countries with which we share some common interest or interests at any particular moment in time. Once we call them "allies" they will turn around and take advantage of us unless they are already naturally inclined to reason (which none of them are).
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                            • Posted by $ jbrenner 10 years, 3 months ago
                              The countries that respect reason are the ones that you invest in, zagros. Those countries should be natural allies, but Canada, Australia, and New Zealand have had very minimal roles in US-led interventions in recent decades. They sent a few men to Kuwait, for example, but not many. Those countries have common interests as you say; they are not really allies. The US could learn something from the countries you invest in.

                              Well said, zagros, and it's been a pleasure meeting you.
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                          • Posted by $ jbrenner 10 years, 3 months ago
                            In principle you are right on this one, db, but in practice, most US presidents since WW2 have had a very hard time not going from what you suggest to intervention in support of countries that we think would be better if they were transformed into worthy partners.

                            One thing we have not considered with regard to this foreign policy issue is the cost. A do nothing foreign policy may be all that the US can afford, not that that matters to the last couple of presidents.
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                            • Posted by Zenphamy 10 years, 3 months ago
                              " intervention in support of countries that we think would be better if they were transformed into worthy partners."

                              Is that why we put the Shah in Iran, or Noriaga in Panama, Hussein in Iraq, or how about support for Osama in Afghanistan, the Saudi's in Arabia, the corrupt idiots we supported in S. Vietnam, then of course their was Ghadafhi in Libiya. Those we thought would be better if they were transformed into worth partners?

                              Then of course, we formed the League of Nations and the United Nations. Yeah, that's worked out well for us.

                              We've never had any idea of what we were doing in foreign policy since the Monroe Doctrine. It's got nothing to do with who's president.

                              The US needs to learn to get business out of government and vice versa. The two don't mix well when man's natural rights are measured. The only thing we've ever gotten right was what we did with Japan and Germany, then get out and let them go on. We taught the populace to understand Natural Rights--then made their governments respect those rights.
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                              • Posted by $ jbrenner 10 years, 3 months ago
                                Exactly, Zenphamy. I was thinking mostly of the Shah in Iran. Most people forget that the US helped train Saddam Hussein in Iraq. Germany and Japan were examples where we didn't follow non-interventionism, and it didn't cost us. You brought up most of the examples where our intervention did cost us. All in all, we didn't get hits at a very high percentage compared to how much we invested.
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                        • Posted by Hiraghm 10 years, 3 months ago
                          Bullshit.
                          "We need to lead by example. If we do not want others to interfere in our internal affairs, we should not interfere in theirs."

                          Can't have Falstaff and have him thin.

                          Who are we to lead, if we're just "equal" to everyone else? And if we are superior enough to lead, why not conquer?

                          The mess came about because we pompously rejected the historic reality at the end of WWII that we were meant to rule the world. As Iraq and Afghanistan demonstrated in microcosm, we so hated the idea of there being masters that we made servants of our people.

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                      • Posted by Hiraghm 10 years, 3 months ago
                        No, the root of our foreign policy woes is not to acknowledge and act upon the true nature of Man. That includes emotions, Mr Spock.

                        Most of the world is not concerned with your fictional "natural rights". They respect power and see opportunity in weakness. Therein lies the root of our foreign policy woes.

                        Your "reason" is flawed because of your blind devotion to the utopian idea of all people thinking the same way and all people holding the same values.
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                  • Posted by Hiraghm 10 years, 3 months ago
                    Japan and Germany were two very, very different sets of circumstances.

                    Are you REALLY toeing the liberal line that aggression is a result of *poverty*?

                    with ISIS raking in a million a day?
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  • Posted by $ jbrenner 10 years, 3 months ago
    Helping a society avoid the negative consequences of its own actions needs no argument. I can't imagine I have to even say that in this forum.
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    • Posted by 10 years, 3 months ago
      I am not saying anyone has an obligation to help them avoid it. I am saying that you do not have an obligation to let it happen. That is what the prime directive demands
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      • Posted by $ jbrenner 10 years, 3 months ago
        If someone chooses to do something stupid, I don't have an obligation to let it happen, but it requires altruism on my part to not let it happen. As for the "moral imperative" argument for situations like genocide, I will agree that it does have some merit, but one must recognize the consequences of dealing with an inferior culture when doing so. A response to the moral imperative situation will undoubtedly have unintended consequences.
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        • Posted by zagros 10 years, 3 months ago
          Since WHEN does it REQUIRE altruism to stop someone from doing something stupid? Teaching people the difference between rationality and irrationality isn't altruistic. It is actually quite selfish (in the good way, of course!) since we are enhancing their virtues PROVIDED they LEARN from it and become the better for it (in such a way, we add another to the rational chorus, which is always a good thing): "Love, friendship, respect, admiration, are the emotional response of one man to the virtues of another, the spiritual payment given in exchange for the personal, selfish pleasure which one man derives from the virtues of another man's character."
          Ayn Rand, "The Objectivist Ethics"
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          • Posted by $ jbrenner 10 years, 3 months ago
            If someone whom I already have a relationship is going to do something stupid, then I will usually warn that person. In almost all cases, that person is paying me anyway. As for Joe Blow off the street that I have no prior relationship with, his actions do not affect me, and it would require altruism to help him.
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            • Posted by $ Susanne 10 years, 3 months ago
              Speaking as someone who used to try to talk jumpers down from bridges for a living (fun job, tho it's stress level sometimes leaves a lot to be desired) I got to try to keep people from doing something stupid... and I got paid pretty well for it. Plus I got a damn good feeling when I was successful at it, so that is a payoff in itself.

              Of course... there were the people who jumped anyway, but (not to sound crass) sometimes you just can't fix stupid.

              If I'm doing something I enjoy, whether it's working at my shop or playing with dangerous chemistry or climbing a bridge or participating on this board, *I* am getting enjoyment out of it. If it's "altruistic", does it really matter if someone else can benefit from it as well?
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          • Posted by $ jbrenner 10 years, 3 months ago
            My time in teaching them has value. If someone is going to do something stupid that doesn't affect me, then I have no obligation to stop that person. If I give my time away to teach that person, that is altruistic. I have literally about 1000 students who pay for my time at any one time (only about 1/4 of that in any one semester, but I do have many of them come see me later). I don't have that much time for anything else besides about 30 minutes in the Gulch per day.
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            • Posted by zagros 10 years, 3 months ago
              The point wasn't that you have an obligation to stop them from doing anything stupid. The point was that stopping them from doing something stupid was not automatically altruistic. if you want to do it, it isn't altruism, it is selfish, and thus is good. Personally, I try to stop people from doing really stupid things when their stupidity will end up affecting me. Stopping a kid from drowing is definitely not altruistic because if that kid drowns in that swimming pool, the police are going to have an investigation and I won't be able to go swimming for a while. From what I have seen, most REAL stupidity (as in the kind that will get you killed, not the kind that will teach you a lesson) is rather like that. I have no obligation to do anything but I have a great self-interest in this regard. On the other hand, I just LOVE to part fools from their money and thus give them an expensive lesson since that is the only way to teach them in the future not to be stupid (not by deceit or trickery, mind you, but rather when they get so fixated on the potential gain that their forget about their considerable opportunity cost). When I was in the elementary school and Thurman Munson passed away in a plane crash in 1979, I ran upstairs to my room to find some old replica cards that I had. I immediately went to the house of a neighbor kid who wanted these replica cards and traded the replicas (which I had bought for $1) for his Thurman Munson rookie card. Sold that card 8 years later for $250. By teaching him a lesson in basic economics, I definitely traded value for value, even if he didn't like the deal that much shortly after that time. Last time I saw him, he actually thanked me for fleecing him since it taught him to be more careful when someone appears out of the blue offering you money -- they may have found more value than you realize is there!
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        • Posted by xthinker88 10 years, 3 months ago
          So if we travel 500 light years and find a planet of stone age humanoids, what interactions ought to be permissible?

          It seems to me that one could at least tentatively make the argument that ANY interaction, whether for good or ill, is likely to be extremely coercive in a way that peaceful interactions between members of the same society would not be. I think it was Arthur C Clarke that said something to the effect of any sufficiently advanced technology will appear as magic to those who are less advanced.

          So is it possible that not having the PD and allowing unlimited interactions is really closely morally equivalent to forcing the un-advanced civilization to develop in a way to our own liking?
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  • Posted by $ jbrenner 10 years, 3 months ago
    Taking actions to affect another country's society's overall development has not really benefited the US. The "successful" examples of nation building (Germany, Japan, South Korea) developed markets, but the net benefit has been almost exclusively to those countries, not to the US. The countries where we poured our treasure to virtually no avail include Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Bosnia, etc. The only one of these that had something worth benefiting from was Iraq, and we didn't insist on payment. How much do these countries appreciate us? They don't.
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    • Posted by 10 years, 3 months ago
      The prime directive says we cannot provide technology. Can you explain why antibiotics should not be shared even if they pay for them should not be shared with China, Russia, Africa, India?
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      • Posted by $ jbrenner 10 years, 3 months ago
        If people from another culture purchase a product, as opposed to the technology necessary to develop the product, they have exchanged value for value. That is OK. Selling the technology is ultimately going to be self-destructive for the inventor's company, if the society does not share the intellectual property values of the inventor. The inventor in that case has sold away his technological advantage to a country where it will ultimately be cheaper to develop the follow-on product to his/her invention.

        Regarding certain biotechnologies, I would be disturbed to even have another citizen of my own country sell something that could be built upon into a bioweapon against my own country. This is why countries have export control laws regarding weapons technologies.
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      • Posted by zagros 10 years, 3 months ago
        If you go back and read the Prime Directive, one can definitely provide technology to species that could handle the technology "responsibly" (whatever the heck that means) since the prohibition is ONLY with regard to the introduction of things where the "society is incapable of handling such advantages wisely". Currently, if the Prime Directive were in force on Earth today, no country would be denied antibiotics. However, the Prime Directive would prohibit us from transfering the technology for a nuclear bomb to the North Koreans or the Iranians. Not that this has stopped either country from developing or working on developing the technology independently (contrary to popular belief, both the Soviet Union and China rejected requests from North Korea to assist them in developing a bomb).
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        • Posted by $ jbrenner 10 years, 3 months ago
          That is my understanding of the Prime Directive as well. The idea that the Prime Directive denies free trade is only accurate in cases where the "society is incapable of handling such advantages wisely".
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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 10 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    "I was worried that my profession would just be seen as something that everyone knew since I always tell my students that about 99% of economics is simply applied common sense/reason."
    Things seem like common sense once you know them. Before I ever heard of the notion of something basic like how price floors/ceilings create surplus supply/demand, I would have had to think hard about it.

    Also, many people who would want to go to a Gulch appear to have psychological depression (or in their view they see the truth of how miserable conditions really are), so they should like something called the dismal science. j/k, but not by much.
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    • Posted by khalling 10 years, 3 months ago
      "... many people who would want to go to a Gulch appear to have psychological depression (or in their view they see the truth of how miserable conditions really are),"
      gods' hairy balls!!! example please
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  • Posted by $ jbrenner 10 years, 3 months ago
    Suppose we were actually to construct a physical Atlantis in such a way that was free from any other nation's jurisdiction. By the philosophy expressed by several people in this thread, it should be quite reasonable that other nations should have the right to interfere in our Atlantis because they think they know better how to govern us than we would know how to govern ourselves. I would tell them to stick their noses where the sun doesn't shine. A world governed by the Prime Directive would mean that we would be free from the moochers, looters, and statists of the world. I am curious to see how many people's opinions change when looking at this from the opposite perspective.
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    • Posted by zagros 10 years, 3 months ago
      Actually, that isn't the case. A world governed by the Prime Directive does not mean that they cannot interfere. It means that they cannot interfere under very specific circumstances. Another caveat of the Prime Directive is that "no Star Fleet personnel may interfere with the healthy development of alien life and culture." The problem is that ne'er-do-wells invariably think that whatever everyone else does is not a "healthy development of alien life and culture". In addition, they will likely tell us that they absolutely have a right to interfere because our activities impose "externalities" on them. As an economist, I find the externality argument particularly distasteful because, let's face it, EVERYTHING is an externality to a socialist. I want to drive an SUV, the socialist complains that I am causing global warming. I want to drink Coca-Cola, the socialist will complain that I am driving up health care costs (even if they are not paying directly, they will argue that the fact that I might need some drug in the future implies that the demand for the drug will rise by my need for it and thus the price that he has to pay will increase so this "isn't fair" so I have to be prohibited from drinking Coca-Cola. The socialist will complain that the fact that I want to buy ivory chess boards that are already in existence threatens elephants and thus is a problem. The socialist will complain that simply the THOUGHT that I might drink alcohol on Sunday causes him great discomfort, etc. No, the ONLY proper rule for international policy is a willful non-interference. If you want to give your opinion, fine, but I do not have to listen to it. if you try to enforce your opinion with a barrel of a gun, you have lost the argument. if you try to cajole me into siding with you by sympathy, you are pathetic. No, the only way that you can change my opinion is through reason or you cannot change it at all.
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      • Posted by $ jbrenner 10 years, 3 months ago
        Point taken, zagros. Socialists will find some externality as an excuse to stick their noses in. Willful non-interference - what a beautiful sound that has! That would take a world based on reason rather than socialism unfortunately.
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        • Posted by zagros 10 years, 3 months ago
          I actually have a paper written on how to "solve" the global warming hysteria quite easily using insurance. The beauty of my plan is that when global warming is proven wrong, all the moneys collected will end up being invested in the market and eventually returned to the policyholders via reduced premiums. If, in the unlikely case that it actually happens, all damages are paid out to those who actually suffer just like any other type of insurance. However, the best part of it is that insurance companies have incentives to actually make investments to stop anything bad from happening since they don't want to pay out claims (unlike governments that will simply use the money to fund more socialist income transfer schemes to buy more votes). By the way, I don't have a problem with externalities that objectively DO exist. I have a problem with externalities that exist on in the minds of socialists and autocrats.
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          • Posted by $ jbrenner 10 years, 3 months ago
            One of my past businesses was a waste-to-biofuels company that took advantage of liberal global warming guilt. I gave them environmentally friendly energy or fuel and absolution from their guilt in exchange for a pretty decent chunk of change. We have a lot more in common than I realized.
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  • Posted by $ jbrenner 10 years, 3 months ago
    As for db's first sentence objection to the Prime Directive, if one substitutes the word paramount for sacred, the meaning of the directive stays the same.
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  • Posted by $ jbrenner 10 years, 3 months ago
    Interfering in the internal affairs of another society breeds contempt regardless of good intentions or moral superiority of one's code. Those worthy of being interacted with must get near that level on their own. In the Star Trek stories, that meant that the society had to have the ability to travel at warp speed, had to have resolved its internal differences, etc. Both technological and civil issues had to have been dealt with. I will not deal with a country or with individuals that have adopted a respect for life and a significant degree of technological progress.
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  • Posted by $ jbrenner 10 years, 3 months ago
    Subversion of a society's laws, whether nobly intentioned or not, will not foster the respect for law that is necessary for a society to improve itself.
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    • Posted by Hiraghm 10 years, 3 months ago
      Don't care.

      I'm on the side of *my* society; that is an evolutionary imperative. I will interfere if it benefits my society, and refrain if it benefits my society to do so, or at least doesn't harm my society to refrain.
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  • Posted by $ jbrenner 10 years, 3 months ago
    Supporting one faction over another is the history of the US foreign policy throughout most of the rest of the world, mainly through the CIA. That has backfired for the most part, particularly in Iraq and Iran, and numerous other cases that I really would rather not get into.
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    • Posted by 10 years, 3 months ago
      Really so supporting Great Britain over Germany backfired?
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      • Posted by zagros 10 years, 3 months ago
        Actually, military support for our "allies" has DEFINITELY backfired. By giving them a protective shield, we have enabled them all to embrace socialism at a lower cost since they do not have to spend as much on armaments to protect themselves. It has also fostered a dependency relationship that each of them reinforces within their own countries through their cradle-to-grave socialist states. Our own country was destroyed after 2008 when we embraced the idea of systemic collapse and the need to save those that are "too big to fail". If you are too big to fail, you are too big to succeed. The great thing about capitalism is NOT that anyone can succeed -- it is that anyone can FAIL.
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        • Posted by Hiraghm 10 years, 3 months ago
          " By giving them a protective shield, we have enabled them all to embrace socialism at a lower cost since they do not have to spend as much on armaments to protect themselves."

          Agreed, they should have had to pay tribute for their protection, or protection should have been provided directly by our legions, which of course meant a governor-general ruling the country via proxies.
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      • Posted by $ jbrenner 10 years, 3 months ago
        I knew there were several exceptions, including the one you mentioned, db. I consider Great Britain a different case than many of the others because GB shares most of our values. The mistakes in supporting one faction over another have predominantly been in conflicts involving culturally less developed societies.
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        • Posted by 10 years, 3 months ago
          My point is the prime directive is not a good fundamental premise. I am not saying it is always wrong.
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          • Posted by $ jbrenner 10 years, 3 months ago
            As trogwolf points above, the Prime Directive is essentially based on the Monroe Doctrine, which arguably was the best foreign policy the US ever had.
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            • Posted by Hiraghm 10 years, 3 months ago
              No it wasn't.
              Best foreign policy the US ever had was entering WWII. The worst foreign policy was not pushing east after defeating Germany.

              Had we entered and ended WWII as history meant, we'd have a globe-girdling empire right now, with our cultural values imposed on the entire world, to its benefit.


              And let me be clear: we would have imposed our cutural values on the world the same way the f*ing communists have imposed theirs on us since WWII.
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      • Posted by Maphesdus 10 years, 3 months ago
        I think he meant factions within a country, not a country itself. For example, Jimmy Carter's Operation Cyclone, which provided funding for the Mujahideen during the Soviet war in Afghanistan in the 1980s. America chose to financially support the Mujahideen at that time because they were anti-Communist religious zealots (Islamic zealots, sure, but that's what you get in Afghanistan), and thus could be used to effectively combat the existing government of Afghanistan, which, at that time was secular and pro-Soviet. Zbigniew Brzezinski, former National Security Advisor to President Carter, revealed the secret CIA mission in 1998 during an interview with French magazine Le Nouvel Observateur. You can read about that here:

        http://www.counterpunch.org/1998/01/15/h...

        http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/09/s...

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y57elLCP...
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        • Posted by Hiraghm 10 years, 3 months ago
          That didn't backfire; the Soviets were driven out of Afghanistan. We just didn't take advantage of the vacuum thus created. Because we're such noble and good jackasses.
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          • -1
            Posted by Maphesdus 10 years, 3 months ago
            You don't think September 11th qualifies as "backfiring"?
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            • Posted by Hiraghm 10 years, 3 months ago
              No, it doesn't.

              Okay, let's look at it metaphorically.

              On the first of the month, you stop a thug from stealing a package from your neighbor's porch.
              You do not kill him. You do not turn him over to the police and testify at his trial.

              At the end of the month, the thug comes and sets fire to your house.

              Stopping the thug, by the way you describe it, "backfired". When in reality the failure lay in actions subsequent to the initial action.

              Throwing the Soviets out of *any* place was in our interest. Failure to deal with the middle-eastern savages according to their nature after that, failure to insert western controls into the power vacuum that followed the Soviet pullout, were the factors leading up to 9/11. NOT helping the Mujahideen.

              Even Bin Laden asserted that the trigger for his assault on 9/11 was Desert Storm, not throwing the Soviets out of Afghanistan.

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              • -2
                Posted by Maphesdus 10 years, 3 months ago
                Your analogy doesn't really work because in the scenario you described, there's only one thug. In the situation in Afghanistan, there were two thugs: the Soviets and the Mujahideen. A more accurate analogy would be something like this: On the first of the month, you stop a thug from stealing a package from your neighbor's porch, and then at the end of the month, it isn't the same thug who comes and sets fire to your house, but your neighbor who you tried to help. THAT'S backfiring.

                And while it's true that Bin Laden's actions may have been motivated by Desert Storm, he never would have had the resources necessary to actually put his plans into action if we hadn't funded the Mujahideen in the first place.
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  • Posted by Hiraghm 10 years, 3 months ago
    There is a similar story, actually two of them, that may well predate Star Drek.

    "The Fighting Philosopher"
    "Here There be Witches"
    by E.B. Cole.

    They tell the story of an incredibly advanced civilization that practices the Prime Directive; non-interference. In the first story, 3 wayward members of the civilization are picked up from a planet where they've been taking advantage of the locals with their superior technology. When captured, they are re-educated.

    Then, the protagonist is given permission to interfere in a culture like the ancient Mayans, with human sacrifice. Using a brainwashed local, they take over the priesthood, overthrow the government, and guide the society to eventual membership in the galactic civilization.

    In the 2nd story, they're monitoring a primitive society, and it turns out that in the course of "witch hunts", done for profit of the priesthood, the society is wiping out all its telepaths.

    The men involved violate the prime directive and interfere when an innocent farmer is tortured and about to be burned at the stake. They then "clean house", at which point their commanding officer shows up, and as they're getting ready to face punishment, they find out they've just been promoted to the "X Corps"... a special division charged with "guiding" primitive civilizations.

    Personally... I hate the stories, although they're well written.
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