Existential Threats To Common Sense

Posted by straightlinelogic 10 years, 5 months ago to Government
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This is an excerpt. The full article can be accessed on the link above.

The military lesson is straightforward: if two of your enemies are duking it out, let them. Does that lesson have any relevance today? The Sunni and Shi’a sects have been duking it out across the Middle East for centuries. Neither one likes the US; extremists from both have threatened to annihilate us. Why then, should the US intervene on either side when they make war against each other? War is always terrible and innocents are killed, wounded, and displaced, but isn’t it better that Sunnis and Shi’a kill each other rather than Americans? You don’t see China or Russia taking sides.
SOURCE URL: http://www.straightlinelogic.com/straightlinelogic/Blog-The_Latest/Entries/2014/8/18_Existential_Threats_To_Common_Sense.html


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  • Posted by ObjectiveAnalyst 10 years, 5 months ago
    I am good with this tactic so long as our intelligence agencies keep a close eye on them. If they attempt any aggression towards us then we should annihilate them. This piece meal, half measure, containment strategy of late has only made us look weak. If they initiate an act of war then we should exterminate the vermin and all of those that aid and abet. The lessons of WWII should not be lost. The "governments" where the tyrants and terrorists of today reside should be granted no more quarter than the active actors they aid and abet with their inaction. War is messy and the consequences should be known. For too long we have been played for the paper tiger.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaSXTk4KL...
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  • Posted by CarolSeer2014 10 years, 5 months ago
    Only we can never know when they will stop killing each other and unite against us.
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    • Posted by Technocracy 10 years, 5 months ago
      We know the answer to when they will stop killing each other - never, so long as any of them survive.

      If you were to stop random people and ask what the specific reasons they are fighting are, it would be reminiscent of a Jay Leno "Walkabout". The killing has been going on so long now, the reasons for the fighting have escaped them, now its vengeance and vendetta rather than fighting for an actual goal.
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    • Posted by Zenphamy 10 years, 5 months ago
      We can deal with them then. It won't cost us any more and probably less. We defeated Germany, Italy, and the Japanese in less than 5 years.
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      • Posted by Technocracy 10 years, 5 months ago
        That was back when we embraced two concepts that we no longer use:

        1. Total War

        2. In it to win it

        As a country we no longer have the mass will to do either of those. Not doing number 1 increases the time required to the point where we give up and leave.
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        • Posted by Zenphamy 10 years, 5 months ago
          Maybe so, but if we waited until we were actually threatened or attacked, then we might well embrace those two concepts.
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          • Posted by Technocracy 10 years, 5 months ago
            It would have to be an attack large enough to represent a mortal threat to the nation.

            911 was a significant attack and it didn't cause us to pursue the fight with the vigor of WW2.

            Multiple 911s might have done so... but not a single one of that size
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            • Posted by Zenphamy 10 years, 5 months ago
              I'm not sure. I think that it had more to do with the neo-con's shifting attention to Iraq, which most Americans didn't associate with 9/11 and by the time of the Iraq invasion, quite a few were beginning to doubt the stories put out by the government.
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    • Posted by CarolSeer2014 10 years, 5 months ago
      "Assuming the Consequence"--was not supposed to be a question.
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      • Posted by 10 years, 5 months ago
        I don't understand what you've tried to say.
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        • Posted by CarolSeer2014 10 years, 5 months ago
          Well, it's my contribution to the study of logic. It is basically making the assumption that you know the consequence that is going to happen. Pretty much just what it says.
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          • Posted by 10 years, 5 months ago
            To make an argument about a policy, I have to then state where I think that policy will lead. If that is assuming the consequences, I'm guilty as charged. How does one argue the best course of action without making some assumption about the consequences of that course of action?
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            • Posted by CarolSeer2014 10 years, 5 months ago
              Sorry, RL came up. Although our discussion now appears obsolete, I actually agree. You do need to make assumptions, but you must NOT assume these would be the ONLY consequences. Perhaps I should call it the fallacy of lack positing alternative consequences.

              And that involves a willingness to let go of preconceived notions--in your case, I submit, fixation on the short term. And perhaps, the political.
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  • Posted by Lucky 10 years, 5 months ago
    A few odd comments:
    Germans of a certain generation have a saying,
    'To the eastern front he was sent'. It was said in a quiet voice, they knew that 'he' would not exist in one piece for long.
    Your theme is probably correct, but it is hard to resist the rescue of victims, hard not to support those attacked, and harder not to join with the winning side. Yes the Russians and Chinese show greater discipline in their own interests.
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    • Posted by 10 years, 5 months ago
      The Swiss have resisted being dragged into other nations' wars for centuries.
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      • Posted by CarolSeer2014 10 years, 5 months ago
        And that would be an argument for what?
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        • Posted by CarolSeer2014 10 years, 5 months ago
          I meant: And the fact that the Swiss have resisted being dragged into other nations' wars for centuries would be an argument for what?
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          • Posted by Zenphamy 10 years, 5 months ago
            The ability to deal with your own property and destiny as you decide and voluntarily associate with whomever, whenever you decide that helps your interests to do so.
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          • Posted by 10 years, 5 months ago
            I was responding to Lucky's post, about how "hard it is to resist the rescue of victims..." Like I said, the Swiss have resisted for centuries, so it can be done, and it should be done, here in the US. Since World War II, we've intervened in, among others, Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, and Iraq, and what do have to show for it?
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            • Posted by dbhalling 10 years, 5 months ago
              The US has had two problems that have resulted in Korea, Vietnam, etc. One is that we did not go in to win and we didn't even define what winning would be. If our objective is not total victory, then we should follow the approach of Madison with the Barbary Pirates. If our objective is total victory, then we should demand and institute a government based on natural rights.

              The second problem we have had is that we don't believe in our own values, ie., the Constitution. This means that we have failed to win the battle of ideas, which is the only way to win a war in the long run. The only other alternative is complete annihilation.
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      • Posted by khalling 10 years, 5 months ago
        and Switzerland has been quite happy to protect blood money from despots. moral relativism is immoral.
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        • Posted by 10 years, 5 months ago
          Bank secrecy worked (I use the past tense) both ways. The Swiss protected a lot of legitimate fortunes from despots. They sheltered European and Russian money from Hitler, Lenin, Stalin, and Mussolini.
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          • Posted by dbhalling 10 years, 5 months ago
            On a government level I am in favor of bank secrecy. The government must prove a person committed a crime and that crime directly resulted in the money that is in that account in order to be able to learn anything about peoples' bank accounts.

            On an ethical level, no banker should accept money from a Stalin, Mao, etc.
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      • Posted by khalling 10 years, 5 months ago
        Switzerland was not attacked
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        • Posted by 10 years, 5 months ago
          Switzerland has not been attacked because of their strict policy of neutrality and because geographically, Switzerland is a fortress exceeded only by the US (we have Swiss-scale mountains, but unlike the Swiss, we're also protected by two rather large moats). The Swiss also take the duty of self-defense very seriously; invading Switzerland would be a fool's errand. We could learn something from them. Essentially, I'm advocating George Washington's foreign policy. If you consider 9/11 an attack, a pretty good argument can be made that it was blowback for several decades of intervention in the Middle East.
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          • Posted by dbhalling 10 years, 5 months ago
            Strict neutrality did not save Norway, Finland or others. There was no strategic reason for attacking Switzerland.
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            • Posted by Technocracy 10 years, 5 months ago
              Switzerland was far more able to defend itself than Norway, Finland or any of the other smaller states at the start of WW2 were.
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              • Posted by dbhalling 10 years, 5 months ago
                Probably true, but they were not strong enough to hold off Hitler and Mussolini.
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                • Posted by Technocracy 10 years, 5 months ago
                  They were strong enough to convince the Axis powers that the payoff of invasion would not be worth the price of invading.

                  And that was sufficient unto the day for them.
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                  • Posted by dbhalling 10 years, 5 months ago
                    Agreed, but there are two sides to that equation. The cost and the benefit. I would argue there was almost no benefit. But if the benefit was higher neutrality would not have saved the Swiss.
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                    • Posted by Technocracy 10 years, 5 months ago
                      If the equation weighed out the other way, yes they would have gone into Switzerland.

                      But as always, its easier to pick the low hanging fruit.
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                      • Posted by 10 years, 5 months ago
                        If we accept that Switzerland was a repository for ill gotten loot from the Nazis and the Fascists, that is probably why they were not invaded. The Swiss certainly could have put a defense long enough to transfer that loot out of the country. You don't rob your own bank.
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                  • Posted by LionelHutz 10 years, 5 months ago
                    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_...

                    Germany was GOING to do it! Regardless of Swiss neutrality declarations or the fact that they were armed to the teeth. That wasn't going to save them.

                    The German war strategy demonstrably didn't make sense. They attacked Russia for reasons that amount to "Well, let's keep our troops busy. They have nothing better to do since we're not going to get to Britain quickly". When that operation went pear-shaped, they couldn't bother with a country that wasn't giving them trouble.
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                    • Posted by Technocracy 10 years, 5 months ago
                      Every country works out lots of plans that might or might not ever be used. The existence of that war plan does not mean it was intended for use.

                      War plans serve many purposes, including training tools for your officer corps.

                      I agree that in one one respect Switzerland did luck out tremendously.

                      The lets invade synapse in Hitler's unstable mind did not trigger on Switzerland. Or perhaps he listened to the OKW in that instance.
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          • Posted by CarolSeer2014 10 years, 5 months ago
            In the word's of the famous--well, I'm not sure what he's famous for--Thomas Friedman, the world is not flact, straightline.
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            • Posted by 10 years, 5 months ago
              Flat or flact, I don't understand your comment.
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              • Posted by CarolSeer2014 10 years, 5 months ago
                Oh, dear. I knew it was coming to this. What I'm saying is that you appear to be an isolationist--this is happening on the other side of the world, involves enemies of ours, and therefore we should stay out of it. I'm saying the world is not flat, economics is not confined to national borders any longer, and neither are nuclear explosions. Got it?
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                • Posted by 10 years, 5 months ago
                  As I said on another thread here, I favor the George Washington foreign policy: neutrality, trade with all, but stay away from alliances and stay out of Europe's wars. That is no isolationism. Economics has never been confined to national borders, and do we make nuclear explosions, the ultimate act of terrorism, more or less likely by intervening in the Middle East. I would argue the former.
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    • Posted by khalling 10 years, 5 months ago
      "PLAYBOY: What about force in foreign policy? You have said that any free nation had the right to invade Nazi Germany during World War II . . .RAND: Certainly.PLAYBOY: . . . And that any free nation today has the moral right—though not the duty—to invade Soviet Russia, Cuba, or any other “slave pen.” Correct?RAND: Correct. A dictatorship—a country that violates the rights of its own citizens—is an outlaw and can claim no rights.PLAYBOY: Would you actively advocate that the United States invade Cuba or the Soviet Union?RAND: Not at present. I don’t think it’s necessary. I would advocate that which the Soviet Union fears above all else: economic boycott, I would advocate a blockade of Cuba and an economic boycott of Soviet Russia; and you would see both of those regimes collapse without the loss of a single American life."

      We no longer hold the wealth power or the might power
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      • Posted by 10 years, 5 months ago
        Rand would certainly understand a foreign policy based on US self-interest. How has it been, and how would it be in the future, in our interest to intervene on either side of the never ending Shi'a-Sunni conflict? So far we've spent over $2 trillion and thousands of lives, and what do we have to show for it? I say that since both sides consider themselves to be our enemies, it is in our own rational interest to let them kill each other. When both sides are immoral, it is not moral to intervene on either side.
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        • Posted by CarolSeer2014 10 years, 5 months ago
          When both sides are immoral, then we are almost forced to intervene for our (and perhaps the world's) good. This is the 21st century, and I am hoping we have learned something from the past millenia.
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          • Posted by Zenphamy 10 years, 5 months ago
            Yes, we've learned what can murder somewhere between 100 million and 250 million human beings. On the other hand, it might be considered suicide for those that consented to live under such systems.
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          • Posted by 10 years, 5 months ago
            The one thing I've learned from the past millennia is that wars and bankruptcy have brought down more governments than any other causes, and with our government $17 trillion in the hole and with another $125 trillion in unfunded liabilities, history may very well repeat itself here.
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            • Posted by CarolSeer2014 10 years, 5 months ago
              Straightlinelogic, you are the very devil at shorttermlogic.
              The root cause of the problems in the middle east is that America has withdrawn, unlike after WWII, when Europe and Japan were occupied until stable, and America has become weakened to the point where we no longer have the influence we once had. Until America is on the right track again, --bye bye libs--we will not be able to make gainful contributions to the stability of the world.
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              • Posted by Zenphamy 10 years, 5 months ago
                Why should we feel an obligation or even a right to make gainful contributions to the stability of the world by using force and coercion against the rest of the world? We may owe that to ourselves if you stretch the definition of individual to the group of individuals that make up a nation.
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                • Posted by CarolSeer2014 10 years, 5 months ago
                  You need to analyse what you just asked; that is, take it apart and separate each of its threads if you expect to find meaningful answers.
                  I also think you need to identify some probably repressed emotions behind the question itself.
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                  • Posted by Zenphamy 10 years, 5 months ago
                    If you consider that an objectivist philosophy based on owning oneself and having natural rights while also having respect for those same rights of others, then would not a nation based on those ideals also be rationally consistent with that philosophy? What else is there to analyze? I maintain that a nation has no more right to utilize force and coercion than does an individual, except in self defense. And within that, I might concede some level of pre-emption with sufficient proof that another intends harm. But as to influence--I'm not confident that matters to our success as a nation, more than the demonstration of the success of a country operated under the intent of the founders.

                    Maybe I wasn't clear enough in the last statement, in that I intended that we may owe to ourselves the need to make gainful contributions to the stability of our own nation. (In the last decade or so, the US has dropped way down on the list of countries with the most freedom, either economically or individually. We currently have the largest prison population per capita or actually of any nation on earth. Some 2.1 to 2.6 million) But to do even that, we would have to stretch the concept of individual to our nation of individuals.

                    As to repressed emotions, I've always worked hard to not allow emotions to control my actions or opinions.
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                    • Posted by CarolSeer2014 10 years, 5 months ago
                      Firstly, you need to know your emotions before you can keep them from interfering with your reason.
                      Secondly. you might read the history of the Interwar Years in Europe. Were their eyes closed, and why?

                      I agree with you in one respect, America is weak now, after 6 years of President Wimp.
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              • Posted by 10 years, 5 months ago
                The root causes of the problems in the Middle East go back many centuries, before the US was a gleam in the Founding Fathers' eyes. We are following a long line of countries who have stuck themselves on the Middle Eastern tar baby and have found it quite difficult and painful to become unstuck.
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  • Posted by Zenphamy 10 years, 5 months ago
    As far as I can tell, the fights between the Sunni and Shi'a is kind of like a fight between Baptist and Methodist. But yes, why should we have anything to do with either one. It's their business. Let them both destroy themselves or fail. We gain nothing other than some sense of moral superiority for those of us that think that's important.
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  • Posted by LionelHutz 10 years, 5 months ago
    When you say "let your two enemies duke it out", you seem to be citing a WWII example where Russia and Germany are our enemies. Of course, Russia was in name an ally. You seem to be painting a picture where we delayed our entry into Europe because we were waiting for Russia to absorb more losses. Conspiratorial idea - I like it. Any proof?

    If there was some Shia/Sunni conflict going down in Iran or Pakistan or what-have-you, I'd get your point about the insanity of engaging in the conflict. I agree with your logic: no matter whether the Shia or the Sunni win, we win because they weaken themselves. Also, while they're distracted fighting each other, it's harder for them to make trouble for us. It's pretty much the 1980s policy of letting Iran and Iraq war with (almost) no involvement.

    However, we're talking about Iraq here. We can't pretend like we're not involved there already. We've been there for a decade and this fiasco is happening as we're pulling troops out. ISIS is judging that we're too weak to repel them at this stage. Are they right? Probably.
    Would ISIS be in its own power struggle against the other Islamic factions should they gain a foothold in Iraq? No doubt.
    Does that mean we should just let them take over? You know what a takeover means? We've got an embassy there. An ISIS takeover means mass beheadings in the green zone...what happened in Libya times ten. There are two ways to avoid that outcome. Way #1: lower the US flag and vacate. Declare that the last decade was folly, and allow the rise of a new strongman. Way #2: engage the enemy and acknowledge that you may as well make Iraq the 51st state because we're never leaving. I don't think we've got a workable middle ground on this. We're either in for some humiliation or some territorial expansion. If we try to achieve something in the middle, we're just going to have a lot more death with nothing to show for it.
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    • Posted by 10 years, 5 months ago
      I did not intend to imply a conspiracy to delay our entry into Europe because we were waiting for Russia to absorb more losses. As it was, we were too late to prevent the Soviet acquisition of Eastern Europe.

      I agree with you that we should either clear out of Iraq or completely take it over. My preference is the former.
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    • Posted by Zenphamy 10 years, 5 months ago
      Don't you think that we've already had our humiliation? Let's learn from history and stay the hell out of other's internal problems and not make excuses to attempt imposing our own ideals on other people.

      By the way, I also think we let Russia take the brunt of using up Germany's war machine before we entered Europe. I think that was an excellent read of Hitler's idiocy.
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      • Posted by LionelHutz 10 years, 5 months ago
        I'd say we've got some humiliation at this point, yes. We could just be getting started. It comes down to whether you want to defend our embassy when ISIS marches into the green zone. What's your take?
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        • Posted by Zenphamy 10 years, 5 months ago
          It should be the host country's responsibility to ensure the safety of a foreign embassy. If they can't or won't, we've got no business having one there.
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          • Posted by LionelHutz 10 years, 5 months ago
            Fair enough. I do want to point out that SLL's main point is that we should be passive and let the factions duke it out. My point is that in no way can we really be passive here. We either need to pack our bags and go, or re-engage. There is no sitting on the sidelines for us, because we're basically at the 50 yard line as two sides converge on each other, and one side is shooting at the other side PLUS us.
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            • Posted by Zenphamy 10 years, 5 months ago
              I agree with your feelings about passivity, particularly in relation to our involvement in the middle east. The very first thing I learned when in a situation where bullets are being fired at you, is get to cover. Then, if you aren't in position to overcome those shooting at you, get the hell out of there. Live to fight another day.
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