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Is capitalism really the ONLY economic system proper to man?

Posted by no1laserjock 11 years, 11 months ago to Economics
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I am an objectivist. I am extremely well-versed in philosophy and economics. I have come to believe that up to this point in history that may have been true. I believe it is against man's life at this point in time, considering the availability of technology.


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  • Posted by sdesapio 11 years, 11 months ago
    RE: " I believe it is against man's life at this point in time, considering the availability of technology."

    I'm not sure I understand what you mean. If I'm reading you correctly, you're suggesting that Capitalism is now bad? Is that right?
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    • -3
      Posted by 11 years, 11 months ago
      Please see my post under lostinaforest's question below:

      No capitalism would be nice. The only way that it will ever work is if one is an objectivist. It is irrational to think that everyone will become an objectivist. Jesus had a 2000 year head start over Ayn Rand, and not every one is a Christian.

      Are we going to regulate thinking so people act more capitialistically? No. There is not one person on earth that can think, produce or create at his highest potential at the point of a gun. What kind of system would we need then to prevent this?
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      • Posted by khalling 11 years, 11 months ago
        You don't need everyone to be an Objectivist for Capitalism to work. You just need laws that allow for capitalism. You can start a commune in a capitalist society -you just can't use force to achieve your goals. why are you spouting such nonsense?.
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  • Posted by khalling 11 years, 11 months ago
    why would an "Objectivist" swear off capitalism? are you talking about the crony capitalism in our country?
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    • Posted by 11 years, 11 months ago
      It is BECAUSE I am an objectivist that I have drawn my conclusions!

      I actually DO check my premises regularly…

      Here’s my response to:

      Objectiveanalyst Re Money as trade What’s it worth? #7

      {?$}no1laserjocks Premise
      {!$} objectivanalyst premise


      {?$}Now the problem is, “Doesn’t Dagny have a right to charge (some arbitrary price) what she determines for use of the railroad?”

      The premise is that sure she has a right but contextually, the money IS a convention of convenience for exchange, I agree. Her rights only come into existence where another person begins and ends. And I agree that they must trade by consent.

      {!$}Now the problem… #7 Money was conceived for convenience of trade of value. If you have a horse to trade but you only want a sack of potatoes you can’t divide your horse to pay for the potatoes so you sell the horse for money so you can buy the potatoes with money left for other exchanges...

      {?$}I absolutely agree, “Money was conceived”. It is a subjective, and arbitrary idea, it has served us well up until this point in history. Human beings evolve and adapt like all other creatures. We’re not yet ready to let money go but we have out evolved its usefulness and meaning. We have to be very wise about how we are going to use the remaining resources that we have. Capitalists don’t seem to have any plan other than, “Somehow if we can just trade laissez faire, then the world will be at peace, and enjoy abundance.” How? What exactly is the plan? Why should we all follow it? How will it serve my life, relationships, creativity and happiness?

      Again, whether you own the State of Florida or a Toothbrush, you will have collision over resources, only ideas are protected from differential advantage. Only ideas serve man when they are implemented. You can’t extract and idea from someone’s head without their consent … Yet.

      Once again, when man invented the wheel he didn’t go to Home Depot and buy a block of stone, haul it back to his cave and carve it into a thick disc. He expressed his relationship to reality (metaphysics) and his perception, cognition and integration of reality (epistemology), and by taking action by carving he engaged and expressed his relationship to reality; he was “right for life”, he was GOOD. (ethics).

      The first wheel makes the second easier to create since now he has one wheel on which to carry a second stone block back to his neighbors cave, not to mention carrying the Mammoth haunches that serve the troops energy requirements. At this point his efficiency begins to exponentially increase. Since all he had was his energy he needed a way to store the potential energy gleaned from reducing labor. He invented money. It served us well to get to this point. Now humans see efficiency producing diminishing returns in the perceived value. Money is now falsely inflated, because anyone who has it doesn’t want to loose it. The premise of loosing it triggers the reptilian brain almost entirely surpassing the frontal lobes! Fight, Flight, Freeze or F.. reproduce.

      Fight is the emotion employed.

      If you own a business and you are used to a certain level of efficiency and profit, and your returns diminish because of this (which will occur if your product lasts indefinitely and is the best), and you happen to be the only one or few that offer an energy (human life, happiness and creative) expanding or saving product. In order to maintain your perceived value (that you are “free to decide”) under a capitalistic system, you have seven primary choices available:

      1. Fake reality and withhold the product from the market, thus falsely increasing its PERCEIVED value (never its ACTUAL value!).
      2. Engage in competition, which carries far more emotional weight and intellectual burden then developing the product, thus reducing EFFICIENCY while staving off the same reptilian stress associated with being hunted by a lion.
      3. Bribe, or legally disarm others, using the Government as a protection racket.
      4. Psychologically and emotionally manipulate others into believing they need your product when they actually don’t: Create status symbols and snake oil promises. By ADVERTISING.
      5. Build in ‘planned obsolescence’.

      Bernard London's pamphlet Ending the Depression Through Planned Obsolescence 1932

      "Instilling in the buyer the desire to own something a little newer, a little better, a little sooner than is necessary." Brook Stevens Industrial Designer 1954

      6. Total honesty. You realize your product is obsolete now and seek a different activity, or invention.
      7. Do nothing.

      Every choice above is immoral except the new product or invention that serves mans energy and creative requirements.

      My point is that money has completely left the sphere as a representation of energy required and transmuted itself into the meaning of either a natural resources value or an artificial construct like “Hello Kitty!” products. You can fill the Grand Canyon with “Hello Kitty” lunchboxes and crap but it will NEVER represent the energetic and creative value for a cure for cancer. It is 100% subjective and 0% Objective.


      When we are born, we are intellectually not emotionally born tabula rasa. However, we do possess evolutionary traits. For instance, I was adopted. My parents had virtually no artistic creativity, language or science skills, but were excellent entrepreneurs. I excelled, at arts, language and science. Traits I share with my blood family whom I did not meet until I was 36.

      {Human behavioral evolution -Robert Sapolski.}

      For anyone on earth; here you are born into some politico economic system that you are service bound to (or you die) without consent, without being informed, without your permission, or maybe you’re lucky enough to be a simple Bushman that is actually Happy. I could accept his “reality” because I know that the lions are NOT an idea. But money is, and we have a conflict because I perceive something better! I can’t blank out the lion, and I can’t blank out the money.

      I could kill all the lions, which would completely destroy the natural order (totally immoral and reality-faking in my opinion). I can accept the money system, which I have done and whore my creativity and/or labor out to the highest bidder (which I am continuing to do to survive); while I develop a better plan –which few others in the west seems capable of, willing or interested in pursuing at present. Yes, I am THAT arrogant. At least I AM TRYING!

      I refuse to blindly accept socially instilled premises without analysis. I believe that You and I are born into indoctrinated and indentured servitude to a completely delusional paradigm that is religiously (I don’t mean by the Churches) supported only by “faith”, and instilled as a “Fact of reality” that should never be challenged. I’m challenging it.

      So far no metaphysical aspect of the natural world can be accounted for that necessitates its existence in this moment. It’s merely an idea whose time has run out.

      AND ONCE AGAIN!

      I REJECT ANY USE OF FORCE AGAINST ANY MAN FOR ANY REASON OTHER THAN SELF DEFENSE! I REFUSE TO LEGISLATE IT OR PARTICIPATE POLITICALLY IN A SYSTEM THAT SUPPORTS IT. I VEHEMENTLY REJECT DUTY AND ANY DEONTOLOGICAL ETHICS!

      I ALSO REFUSE TO BE AN IGNORANT GUARDIAN OF THE STATUS QUO!
      .----.
      _ /_--.- _\ _
      / __ > <__ \
      / / / "" \ \ \ Blank out...
      / / \ '----' / \ \
      \ \_ /`""|"'"`\ _ / /
      \ /

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    • -3
      Posted by 11 years, 11 months ago
      Please see below under lostinaforest's question.

      No. I mean specifically establishing a politico-economic means of trade by an arbitrary standard such as gold in its purest form.

      I believe capitalism is NOT objective.
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  • Posted by $ kathywiso 11 years, 11 months ago
    I know it is the only FAIR system in this world. Work hard, earn money, no matter what you are working at. Either you get money for your own efforts, earned, or you steal it from someone else, thief. Only two ways to look at it. Did I miss something??
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    • Posted by 11 years, 11 months ago
      How do you know it is the ONLY fair system?
      Argument from ignorance and dialectically implies a false dichotomy bifurcation which is employed here:

      "[O]r you steal it from someone else, thief, Only two ways to look at it"

      No, there are more than 2 ways to look at it. Your mind is capable of further conceptualizations and integrations.

      Lets apply this logic to the existence of God (money for a so-called objectivist) :

      I just KNOW that the universe was created by god. It is the only reasonable explanation. You can't get something from nothing. Argument from ignorance. In other words, this is the best Idea I can think of.

      You don't have any metaphysical evidence to support that claim. In fact, with the discovery of the Higgs Boson, we have a pretty good idea that the universe was probably formed by "membranes" occurring and interacting at the level of Plank energies. (blank out)

      Either Man is Good or Evil - False Dichotomy Bifurcation. He could be mentally ill or have a physical brain disorder. (blank out)

      If you are getting angry over this, that indicates a threat to your paradigm. I have maintained consistently that:

      I REJECT ANY USE OF FORCE AGAINST ANY MAN FOR ANY REASON OTHER THAN SELF DEFENSE! I REFUSE TO LEGISLATE IT OR PARTICIPATE POLITICALLY IN A SYSTEM THAT SUPPORTS IT. I VEHEMENTLY REJECT DUTY AND ANY DEONTOLOGICAL ETHICS!

      I ALSO REFUSE TO BE AN IGNORANT GUARDIAN OF THE STATUS QUO!

      Respectfully Jamie
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    • -2
      Posted by 11 years, 11 months ago
      Its not "the only fair system" is a false-dichotomy bifurcation. I will give you that it appears to me a more fair system than others.
      Yes, you did. this entire premise rests on an assertion that money is the only means of trade and trade is the metaphysical nature of man.
      What is man trading for?
      Reduction of labor. How else might man reduce his labor?
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    • -1
      Posted by 11 years, 11 months ago
      You are also making an assertion that Slavery is the only alternative to capitalism. There are other alternatives. I'm going to let this thread build up before we start exploring those.
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  • Posted by $ kathywiso 11 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Don't you dare, he deserves adoration. We have already talked about meeting you.... Lots of fun and feel the same way ! Helps keep our minds off what is happening out in the world :)
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    • Posted by LetsShrug 11 years, 11 months ago
      Well that would be a hoot! A gulch get together of sorts. Some day we'll have to do that. This place is keeping me sane, you have NO idea! NONE! I've got a handful of people I can even really relate to in real world (my family) and that's about it... a few friends are on the right track...the rest are effing lost causes. So nice to be among observant minds.... observant STRONG minds. :) People with concrete convictions are harder to find than they should be.
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      • Posted by $ kathywiso 11 years, 11 months ago
        Wow, do I know what you mean. There are so few people out there that even understand what is happening in this country. Did you ever think the 2nd Amendment would be in jeopardy and this fast.... I never thought I would see the things that are happening now, although I was warned at 16 by Atlas Shrugged. The constitution is the law of the land and it doesn't even matter now. I don't understand and appreciate this forum to keep me sane also, and DK of course.....
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        • Posted by LetsShrug 11 years, 11 months ago
          I never ever thought I would witness the things that are happening right now. I don't know if it happened as fast as it seems or if I just starting REALLY being aware at the same time, although I was always more "aware" than anyone else I knew (which isn't saying a damned thing now that I just said it), or if it really has been a million mph blur of events. It's devastating really. When I've read about things like Germans hiding Jews in their attics and then riding their bikes into town to get some bread and trying to not attract attention from the Nazis in town I would think "why the hell didn't they just leave before things got this bad??", but now I realize that people (myself included) are creatures of habit and just try to get thru the days as "normal" as possible...but things aren't "normal" anymore. I don't know if I'm making any relevant sense, but....it's just scary times. And if this has all happened this fast.....we may be in for a tsunami without much warning...
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          • Posted by $ kathywiso 11 years, 11 months ago
            Exactly, nothing is normal. The world is upside down. I feel like we are on the titanic and it just hit the iceberg. We need to gather a few lifeboats and prepare..stock up on medicine, it is going to be important. I will probably talk with you later today, I need to get some sleep.
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          • Posted by 11 years, 11 months ago
            I try not to watch too much "news" (I trust their objectivity about as far as I can throw them), but I thought I was going to Yak in my soup when Heir, Obama announced that he was going to create a civilian security force as strong as our military! OMF'NG! I am NOT the one you should be worried about because I will NEVER support any concept that allows another man to have any control over another human being. This present system is totally enslaving us and "This shit has got to go!"
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      • Posted by 11 years, 11 months ago
        I am not your enemy, I AM fighting the same fight and I think it is noble to find a better alternative to mans needs.

        Considering lost causes here is a letter from a "friend" whom I had to let go because of this letter. He is not the first to present this crap.

        This is much more agonizing than you could ever dream that I am! LOL ..Er? ...Enjoy?...

        I used to believe my thoughts, versions, and stories to be true as well many years ago, but I had to let all of that go for the love of sanity and peace. There is no right or wrong here. I don't have any answers to issues you mentioned. There is nothing I feel I need to believe in. Everything is always absolutely just the way it should be even though I or anyone can't ever understand just how it fits into the whole of life at the time. Whatever you feel like you need to believe is exactly what you need to be believing at that time. Therefore, I have no problem with anything you say or with anything anyone else says because all of that stuff is only relatively true at best...never ultimately true...nothing in this world can ever be ultimately true. That's why I'm fine with it all just as it is, whenever it is, however it is. How could anyone ever improve synchronistic perfection that has always already been the case and will continue to always already be the case? I don't have any enemies...I still may choose not to hang around certain types, but I never see them as an enemy. I trust you and everyone else to do exactly whatever it is they need to do when they do it...knowing full well that I can never understand the reasons for it all. This may not sound very peaceful or sane to you, but I have never before experienced this much peace, sanity, lightness, and ease as I do now living in the world this way. I enjoy doing things with you and all the guys I know here in Oregon, and you guys are always welcome around me.
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  • Posted by 11 years, 11 months ago
    I just know that I know that I know is all you need to know folks! Thanks for playing!

    After all of this, I am walking away from this site,
    "Thinking Capitalism is an EPIC FAIL!"

    AND In this particular respect and a few others (especially her view on emotions -which I know to be f'd up because Nathaniel Branden was my therapist for a time and Nathaniel Leigh and I have since become friends via email and phone calls (mostly with Leigh), and Ayn clearly did NOT have access to psychology and brain science that we have to day.

    Oh my God the All mighty Ayn Rand -My No1 hero!- oh... do i dare say it... here goes...
    WAS WRONG ABOUT SOME THINGS! GASP!
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  • Posted by ObjectiveAnalyst 11 years, 11 months ago

    no1Laserjock,

    A bold assertion.

    Keeping in mind that we have never actually practiced true free market capitalism, but an increasingly mixed market economy, it is without empirical evidence to posit that it is/would not be the best system devised regardless of time and technology since to date nothing else has proven superior; and even in its un-pure practice has proven so (although the distortion is now becoming critical). The trader principal is sound. The form of the money is immaterial as it is only a convenience for exchange of value. I do not see human nature or economic fundamentals as changed just because the values we exchange are of a changing nature.

    Please elaborate on your criticisms and alternatives, so that we might understand, compare and critique.

    It is not a profitable exercise to debate its superiority over a nebulous, amorphous, yet undefined system of your creation.

    The burden is yours.

    Respectfully,
    O.A.
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    • -1
      Posted by 11 years, 11 months ago
      Thank you for your civility, maturity and respect!

      I accept that I bear the burden of proof for this.

      I am not in the least saying that capitalism was not sound at some point in human history.

      However to advance a philosophy that will support capitalism, will require integration as per Leonard Peikoff’s terms in the D.I.M Hypothesis. In other words, one must be re-educated to abandon their [Mis] and [Dis] -integrations in an effort to achieve “rational” integration and induction i.e. the scientific method.

      Alternatively, to advance a philosophy that shifts from a resource scarcity mentality to a resource abundance mentality, also will require an ‘integration overhaul’ in an individual’s philosophy.

      This is a problem for either of us, and I think we all agree that the use of force is absolutely immoral and unethical. It must be voluntary.

      Consider for a moment that we here in the Gulch, built an actual protected utopia, where people live conservatively, only for the necessities required to sustain creativity, and use the best manufactured devices and tools that are designed for quality (“The best that men have to offer, rather then the shoddiest..”) in order to ease the burden of labor, free the creative mind and thus extend life.

      In the Gulch, everyone had some basic laboring job to earn gold, which they traded for their basic living requirements.

      Ok, now presume that I ask the “value producers” for surplus materials that would otherwise be discarded, they give it to me voluntarily; I didn’t coerce them by force or by emotional, intellectual, or legal disarmament –I built my laser display and design business literally from lasers (perceived to be worth $20,000 dollars or more) that I scrounged from dumpsters!- then use my creativity to assemble them into a robot that can perform all the manual labor. Suppose, I decide not to ask for gold, but rather,

      “I’ll build you a robot that will plant, grow and harvest those potatos for the duration of your life and beyond, as long as I can have enough to live on during my life.”

      Then I repeat, for chicken, clothing, fruit, a toaster etc. etc. etc. I am now not in a capitalist economy I am in an abundant energy economy. There is no reason for Dagny to clean Galt’s house and use those irreplaceable precious hours scrubbing the floor when she could be redesigning her railroad.

      Now the problem is, “Doesn’t Dagny have a right to charge (some arbitrary price) what she determines for use of the railroad?”

      Yes, she certainly has the right to do what she wants: its her creation. I think she is going to want the benefits of a labor-relieving robot though. If she wants it, the most rational decision is to allow me to use the railroad in exchange for the use of my labor saving robot. I don’t need gold or fiat currency to do that. I only need my mind and access to resources.

      Money is a shared, agreed upon social standard. I believe that it is an orthodoxically shared delusion raised to near religious fervor as is evidenced in response to my posts.

      Economics is no more a science then day-trading. It is merely a theoretical guess based on the movement of the medium within a group associated with their philosophical constructs. It is not empirical.

      However, man is an empirical existent. His nature is to act on reality -the natural world- by invoking his frontal lobes integrations and inductions, in order to ease his burden of labor i.e. the harnessing of fire, the use of a club, and the invention of the wheel for instance. He did not require money in order to find the incentive to ease his burden of survival.

      Man is NOT an entirely philosophical being, he is also a very complex emotional creature, and is saddled with some evolutionary behavioral traits:

      1. Kin Selection
      2. Sexual selection
      3. Individual selection

      Game theory and cooperation:

      1. Tit for Tat / reciprocal altruism – the prisoner’s dilemma
      2. Rock paper scissors / all other organisms refrain from interspecies harm because they behave for the organisms survival.

      …and much more.

      See Robert Sapolski –Stanford.

      We’ve evolved not to kill each other. We began to do so when we started hording resources or to compete for the “alpha’ role in order to propagate our progeny.

      Mans labor is represented by energy and time empirically. He has a finite amount of each THAT is the only currency he has to “trade”.

      Attaching an arbitrary value to his energy immediately causes him to turn against his nature and adopt a social construct of compliance. He will then in order to relieve his burden of labor, continue to inflate the value of his time and energy arbitrarily by pitting one’s human need against another in an auction clearing house to the highest bidder.

      I will repeat this example a lot, however:

      Consider the game of monopoly. How do you win? Total acquisition and bankrupting your less skilled opponent! What is it that is happening in the west now?

      Suppose you wish that those that lost would stay in the game because you squandered all the resources on the board. You can either:

      A. Redistribute your wealth and return it the game so others may continue to play.
      B. You can print more money and circulate debt to keep them enslaved in the game. (Our present situation)
      C. You can quit playing by the rules mid-game and decide that this is damaging to the looser (in the real world) and share the resources and refocus on how they can be used to improve life for you and everyone.

      What metaphysical reason, or even a rational emotional reason do people need 6 green houses, 2 red hotels, ownership of Park Place etc etc.? Is it metaphysically necessary just because, “I want it!” Does the desire to want something and own it supercede all reason?

      For most capitalists I have listened to, their argument is childish, “I want a Lambourgini!” “(and if I don’t get it I am going to throw a tantrum!)”

      “Ok, but this Randmobile 3000 is a more reliable, more comfortable, safer, more efficient, costs less and has less environmental impact.”

      “ I don’t care! I DESERVE A LAMBOURGINI! Everybody else has a Randmobile 3000…” That is exactly what we are dealing with in defense an perception of capitalism.

      As I pointed out to Khaling, what will you do if there are “sore losers”?

      Back to monopoly:

      What will you do with sore losers who have nuclear weapons? You can’t win a nuclear exchange. And you aren’t ever going to get the D and M mode mentalities to go along and graciously accept your “win”. I believe this would be irrational.

      You are essentially asking young people to burden themselves with labor against the realization of what technology is capable of. They perceive, and rightly so, that “capitalism” (I know our economy is basically totalitarian) represents the worst evils, transgressions, bad shit that has ever been done to humans and the planet in the name of “profit”.

      It is unobjective to think you will get them on the capitalist’s side. What will you do when the nameless faceless majority who either, is not intellectually capable of competing, or has a mental disorder, or is a complete Kantian Disintegrator, forms a mob and demands your resources be redistributed? Kill them all? I don’t think so, at least I hope not!

      That is happening now!

      Therefore, it is irrational to continue this (any economic system) when 80% of the jobs, are now in the service sector and quickly being eliminated in favor of robots for reliability, speed and energy efficiency as compared to human labor.

      We have to face the facts that machines are out-competing us! Either we turn them to our advantage to relieve the burden of labor and realize the Good Life of a self-actualized man, or we scramble like rats for the last piece of cheese, all the while filling our nest with useless shiny bobbles.

      We all know a change must occur, a major shift in thinking must occur, we all agree on that. In order to have the good life we must check our premises, and if we find we are orthodoxically following a pattern of indoctrination that manifests in emotional fervor, we better reevaluate our place on earth and in humanity.

      We are at a point in human history where we have capabilities of evaluating and shaping our world via technology than we never had before. Are we really going to maintain a 3000 year old invention and apply it to the needs of man today? It would be a colossal logical error to do so.

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      • Posted by ObjectiveAnalyst 11 years, 11 months ago
        No1Laserjock,
        My reply:
        I find little agreement with many of your assertions and find them less than objective. They remind me of the positions / historyonics espoused by today’s mass media and liberal professors from their elitist ivory towers. The real world happens outside their utopian myopic view. It is this distortion we must combat. I believe you have been unduly swayed and will attempt to provide a different perspective. I have taken an excerpt from the beginning of your paragraphs and followed with my numbered replies.
        I am not in the least… #1 The only thing that has changed is our application. We have distorted capitalism to the point of reduced efficacy. When we return to freer markets with less government manipulation (as in picking winners and losers) the market will improve the lives of all as it has in the past.
        However to advance a philosophy… #2 Yes, and I believe you have expressed several [Mis] and [Dis] –integrations. I question many of your expressed premises, your metaphysics, epistemology, and your dialectic arguments.

        Alternatively, to advance a philosophy… #3 Yes. Many possess the unsubstantiated limited resource mentality, from natural resources to money (we “make” money/ value thus increasing the pie). Technology always finds new ways to replace resources. One only need look at the increased production of an acre of farmland over time, to see the benefits.

        This is a problem for either of us… #4 Here we have no disagreement.

        Consider for a moment that we… #5 A Utopian dream. See More’s “Utopia”, or Plato’s “Republic”. Not a good start. People will not bend to others visions. I would suggest you contrast the perspectives of Locke and Montesquieu to those (More, Plato) who imagined they could change man’s nature, rather than except it and benefit from it.

        In the Gulch, everyone had some… “abundent energy economy…” #6 A commune where people barter... This never works out well. There will not be abundance. History has abundant examples.

        Now the problem… #7 Money was conceived for convenience of trade of value. If you have a horse to trade but you only want a sack of potatoes you can’t divide your horse to pay for the potatoes so you sell the horse for money so you can buy the potatoes with money left for other exchanges...

        Economics is no more a science… #8 Some parts of it are empirical, some are just based on historical trends. There is also the “invisible hand” (Adam Smith) the market forces that adjust for the parameters that are beyond the human scope. It is a “fatal conceit” (Friedrich von Hayek) to imagine man can completely understand and forecast the market in minute detail because the metrics (unpredictable actions of men and environment) are always in flux and cannot be fully accounted for.

        However, man is an empirical existent... #9 Games and emotional reactions are no basis for establishing a system. I do not believe in the “Kobayashi Maru”. We only entered into a civil society in order to protect our property. Some of us learned it was easier to kill and take than to produce.
        Mans labor is represented… #10 Man’s time is limited, but the amount of value he creates in this time is in his power to increase. Value is his trade not his time.
        I will repeat this example… #11 Owning a Lamborghini hurts no one, in fact it employs the manufacturers etc. Monopoly is a game. Real life ramifications have a way of changing ones actions. The sore losers are buying the fixed size of the pie argument. They appeal to jealousy and envy. Part of becoming successful is learning to pick oneself up after failure and learning from it. I started my own business on a shoestring, but a level of success was only accomplished after several failures. The “sore losers” need to buck up and recognize life is not fair; never was and never will be, regardless of economic system. We have wrongly given the populace an entitlement attitude and a belief life should be easy and handed to you. “Genius is 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration” Edison
        What will you do with sore losers… #12 I lived through the Cuban Missile Crisis. I survived “duck and cover.” The nuclear threat was worse in the past. I fail to see the relevance. Capitalism is not responsible for the evils you mention. People are responsible. In fact every other “ism” that has been instituted, it could be argued have done far more evil. More people have been killed tortured, and imprisoned under communism, socialism, fascism, Nazism, etc. there is no comparison.
        You are essentially asking… #13 I have adopted CNC robots for decades. My people have jobs programming the machines instead of running them by hand. The manufacturer of the machines is also employing people in the same way. Consumers benefit from reduced costs achieved through higher production.
        It is unobjective to think… #14 I don’t think education and re-education to counter the propaganda the Marxists have fostered is futile, or un-objective. Protecting our property is the primary purpose for forming a government. If they fail to do this you do what you must. People choose not to steal from you when their life and property are at risk. This is the point of the civil society. When your property is protected it is more profitable to trade/ labor for your needs. Lunatics exist regardless of economic system.
        Therefore, it is irrational to continue… #15 Machines have only improved life, and allowed people to invent or adopt new professions which are often less labor intensive. People have always had irrational fears of technical advances. The invention of the car put the horse and buggy people out of business and they expressed the same fears. The manufacturing of cars and the spinoffs have improved the lives and provided jobs to countless people the horse and buggy business never could have done.
        We all know a change must occur… It would be a colossal logical error to do so. #16 Only if you view it as an obsolete system, rather than a system which when properly exercised without distortion is a matter of timeless principles, proven to elevate the masses better than any other system yet devised. I speak of free market capitalism, not what passes for it today (government distorted crony-capitalism and progressive social engineering.) These fears are not new they have been expressed repeatedly throughout history and throughout it all man has continued to find ways to improve the lives of countless millions and allow an ever increasing population to be fed and prosper. Capitalism is not the enemy. Men of envy are the enemy of capitalism. Capitalism has proved to elevate even the poor to a status undreamed of for all but monarchs and the ultra rich of only a few generations ago.
        If you are interested I can provide a list of books by philosophers, economists and historians, aside from Rand, that provide convincing arguments and ample support for my positions. If you wish to continue to argue the merits of your assertions please let us take them one at a time. I seldom have time to rebut adequately such a sizable laundry list at one time.
        Respectfully,
        O.A.
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        • -1
          Posted by 11 years, 11 months ago
          Thank GOD! (if you believe in such things) or the universe, for an intelligent reply free of ad hominem attacks now we can get somewhere!

          As I have maintained from the beginning I will conceded my position should I find ample empirical data to squelch it.

          If I have made mis or dis integrations I want to know where. None of us has complete control over our intellectual and emotional faculties. Even though we would like to believe that. I am prone to errors but a single error doesn't necessarily destroy a premise.

          I am going to reply to each number so the post will be pretty long. Oh well this is important. This discussion hopefully will become a record for others to reference.
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          • -1
            Posted by 11 years, 11 months ago
            Debating Soundness of Capitalism

            No1laserjock’s Premise= {?$}:
            Objevtiveanalysts premise= {$!}


            {?$}Capitalism may have been sound at some point in history, but MAY not be today (one of the points of this exploration)

            Objevtiveanalysts premise {$!}

            {$!}#1 The only thing that has changed is our application. We have distorted capitalism to the point of reduced efficacy. When we return to freer markets with less government manipulation (as in picking winners and losers) the market will improve the lives of all as it has in the past.

            {?$} We USED to have distorted capitalism I agree! We don’t have Capitalism today. We have a small corporate oligarchy controlling the primary resources required for Military, Industry and FOOD! Not to mention medicine!

            The term ‘market’ is a broad abstraction representing particulars of an economy. It’s not a conscious entity. An unencumbered Individual’s creativity leads to innovation and inventions –not to mention happiness. Not a group of some kind.

            Capitalism requires a centralized government. You presume it must be people. You presume it will provide a military to protect your Capital. In order to control your government I presume you will vote? How? … via Mob Rule!

            We share a crucial problem here. Individual philosophies. How do you intend this voting system to work, when the mob decides to tax you just 1% more for something or other?

            “Sure 1%. No big deal, I see their point. I don’t want little old ladies to suffer either.”

            Since the instillation of Christianity and the wholesale slaughter of Western Philosophy from Jesus, Hegel, Kant and Dewey (sounds like a sleazy attorney’s office) on the western mind we are facing a massive force of individuals that share some variation of deontological ethics whether God, the State, and now the Environment.

            Supposedly we had laissez faire capitalism in the US before it became the USSA from about 1800- 1913. Then the Federal Reserve (a private banking Cartel) was created… How did that happen? The result of philosophical corruption. What drove it? Irrational greed and lust for power. Not man’s nature -but the metaphysical manifestation of his deepest ideals and philosophical corruptions.

            How do you intend to reach a mind that either believes there are no absolutes, there is no certainty possible and our only moral purpose is duty to the “greater good”, or the others that believe all belongs to God in heaven, and are simply biding their time for “The Jailbreak of the Grave”?

            I am sorry but the game has been lost. Most people don’t understand Capitalism. I do. I think it would be great under the Objectivists terms. But I think it is unobjective to pursue considering the problems inherent in personally unexplored philosophies: The masses.

            The masses are emotionally judging capitalism by the hell-hole we’ve ended up in. Most of these are unaware or incapable of critical thinking.

            Do you want your government to act on emotionalism or empiricism and science? Only the latter two integrate reality. We have a system in place now to self-govern: The Internet.

            So far every argument for capitalism keeps coming back to this dead-stop orthodoxy that completely blanks out the present human condition, in light of technology that is approaching any reasonable definition of magic. We did not have this in the past!

            Since we did not, no One can build an empirical argument that technology is incapable of freeing us from the burden of an economically based laboring society, to an access based, educational, creative and explorative society that takes us into space and planetary exploration, mining and terraforming. I.e. a Star Trek world. The vision I grew up with and will not release. One does NOT need money to do this! Only a creative idea and energy.

            Let’s expand the possibilities. Presume for a moment, that E.T. drops in. It is peaceful and amicable. Let’s say he needs Gold, And is willing to trade “unobtainium” for it. He is not going to be the least bit interest in Federal Reserve Notes, Euros or Yen. We are not paying each other in anything, we are merely exchanging something that has applicable use to the species needs (Extending life, health, happiness, creativity and cognition, presumably) under agreeable terms. He may use force but I don’t think a species can get to interstellar travel under those kinds of philosophical terms; unless all sentient life is corrupted by devils and demons.

            Capitalism will collapse in on itself because scarcity exists only because of the challenges of human labor (energy) and technology (the manifestation of a creative idea). The easier (the least energy required) a process, the more available it becomes (unless it is regulated), the less it is worth in terms of energy or its application to man.

            Now the Capitalist experiences diminishing returns, he is loosing the energy. He thinks it is safely stored away in something that represents gold or whatever. Now XYZ corp comes along and makes it possible to print all the gold ingots it wants. How is the capitalist’s energy; his life’s-work stored? Alternatively, he can invest this tenuous energetic concept of gold into another company that can keep perpetuating that energy and so on. And it continues like an unfolding fractal, that must constantly have energy put into it above and beyond the requirements of the initial life-enhancing product or service to keep it going.

            What does the capitalist do when demand diminishes? Remember this energy he is engaging in is his life. He acts to gain and keep his life by either an improvement to the product or by regulating the products availability by falsely creating scarcity.

            The latter is the path of least resistance and to prevent it will require an “Intransient Philosophy” in that individual’s mind. This is impossible (until we can modify the brain) considering the inherited primate, mammalian and reptilian automatic emotional processes we all “enjoy”. Not to mention the horrible influences most of us here despise.

            Ayn Rand fails to deal with emotions properly. And that is pertinent because we ARE influenced by our knuckle-dragging ancestors. Emotions are much more complicated than “[R]esponses to value-judgments.” There is a helluva lot more going on then that!

            It is an empirical fact, that technology is reducing labor and processes at a nearly inconceivable rate TODAY! Again, >80% of the workforce is in the service sector. How many of those 80+ percent have ideas that could change the world, and free us further?

            A capitalistic system requires a tax to pay for its government infrastructure. According to Constitutional Corporate law that should be around 15%. That equals someone’s irreplaceable time and productive energy seized at gunpoint (unless your system will allow me to homestead. Oh no! That is a limited resource with value, especially the one with the ocean view! So I am not “allowed” to pursue the rights to my life to live and be happy unless I comply with your arbitrary “social contract”?(!) Isn’t that about the gist of it? … to those born into it. To me this equates to another unnecessary, rhetorically conceived, duty-bound “social contract”. I reject Duty.

            Ayn Rand:

            “Since nature does not endow all men with equal beauty or equal intelligence, and the faculty of volition leads men to make different choices…”

            {Then she launches into more angry diatribes, false dichotomy bifurcations and slipper slope arguments disparaging the egalitarian – That evil son-of-a-bitch that simply wants to live and be happy without other assholes placing demands on him..}

            She admits all men are not endowed with equal beauty intelligence or skill.

            This contradicts that capitalism is the only system geared to men. Sure geared to men of ability, who have already accepted a 15% tax but reject investing and using that money to free all men.

            The only truly objective system is totally unencumbered, non-government controlled freedom that is democratically manipulated via an artificially intelligent (NOT sentient!) system, that is programmed to distribute resources and energy in a mutually beneficial balanced system. That is the closest you will ever get to a fair system of politico economics. Any other system will create an angry mob and stratification. It is thus against your life and theirs to do so. It is irrational.

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            • Posted by ObjectiveAnalyst 11 years, 11 months ago
              We have never truly practiced Laissez Faire capitalism. Granted we were closest to it during the 19th century. It was no coincidence that this was a period of great leaps of improvement of the human condition.
              Since then corruption has brought us to the brink of ruin (some say we are beyond) by incremental steps. Liberty is lost one bit at a time. This only proves that man will corrupt the system, any system. This is the history of the world. Nations are established, they are corrupted, they are reformed.

              "In these sentiments, Sir, I agree to this Constitution with all its faults, if they are such; because I think a general Government necessary for us, and there is no form of Government but what may be a blessing to the people if well administered, and believe farther that this is likely to be well administered for a course of years, and can only end in Despotism, as other forms have done before it, when the people shall become so corrupted as to need despotic Government, being incapable of any other. I doubt too whether any other Convention we can obtain, may be able to make a better Constitution. For when you assemble a number of men to have the advantage of their joint wisdom, you inevitably assemble with those men, all their prejudices, their passions, their errors of opinion, their local interests, and their selfish views. From such an assembly can a perfect production be expected? It therefore astonishes me, Sir, to find this system approaching so near to perfection as it does; and I think it will astonish our enemies, who are waiting with confidence to hear that our councils are confounded like those of the Builders of Babel; and that our States are on the point of separation, only to meet hereafter for the purpose of cutting one another's throats. Thus I consent, Sir, to this Constitution because I expect no better, and because I am not sure, that it is not the best." Benjamin Franklin (Constitutional convention excerpt)
              What I want is immaterial. What will happen is, that there will be revolution, peaceful hopefully, but possibly violent. "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants" Thomas Jefferson
              It doesn't matter what we do as long as it creates value which others desire, now or in a star trek future. Early star trek had credits. Later ones had no need of currency, at least in star fleet but they made no satisfactory argument regarding how they changed the nature of man so he was satisfied with the system. It was a fantasy! And even then there were the Ferengi money/gold capitalists $$$. The medium of the currency is irrelevant so long as the parties reach agreement. Gold, paper, or sea shells it doesn't matter if your alien won,t accept your currency and wants gold or unobtanium you barter. Gold has been used for this purpose between nations but that is only because it is of value to that nation. A nomad may find needle and thread more valuable. You trade what you have to who wants it. You trade your skills/ the value you create, for your paycheck, sometimes by the hour sometimes by the job. You trade your paycheck for gold. Round and round it goes.
              We should return to the gold standard, only because it constrains government inflation from printing, and corrupting the system so quickly. Somehow over time the corrupt collude, propagandize and utilize crises to find a way around it eventually, which is what happened.

              When any currency regardless of form is deemed no longer of value those who gambled on its future lose. A new currency is adopted. Humanity moves on. There were plenty of Confederate notes.
              I believe Rand has placed emotion in its proper place in ones cognitive hierarchy. No rational system can be devised to deal with the individual disparate emotions of society.
              No, a system must be devised that operates justly indifferent to emotion, but allowing each their existence and individual pursuits. This is the ideal that our founders pursued as well as the times, disparate desires and their intellects allowed. It was not perfect, and in an attempt to perfect our union many good things happened, but also some in their hubris, imagined a utopia and in their zeal robbed us of our liberty and prosperity.
              "The man of system... is apt to be very wise in his own conceit; and is often so enamoured with the supposed beauty of his own plan of government, that he cannot suffer the smallest deviation from any part of it. He goes on to establish it completely and in all it's parts, without any regard either to the great interests or to the strong prejudices which may oppose it. He seems to imagine that he can arrange the different members of a great society with as much ease as a hand arranges the different pieces upon a chess board..." Adam Smith, the Theory of Moral Sentiments, 1759

              When men enter into a social contract voluntarily to form civil society, they accept the terms and costs as a fair exchange for the benefits it offers. Every generation has the duty to decide if they wish to abolish it, reform it, or leave it.

              "When in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature's god entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impell them to the separation." I am sure you recognize the preamble to the DOI. One must decide when they no longer feel free and they no longer owe a duty to a tyrannical government but feel duty bound to throw off the shackles.
              We need a small government to protect our person, property from the brutes, the "Atillas." Anarchy will free you from social contracts but expose you to force at the hands of the brutes.

              Your mis/dis integrations in my opinion are in your perceptions of the nature of man, money and in your overall construct of governance and its purpose/necessity as demonstrated by your suppositions.
              It is because of the assertions / conclusions you have espoused, that I find something wrong with either your metaphysics, or your epistemology. Of course since I see things differently and unless I can persuade you to see things as I do, you will undoubtedly question mine.
              I do not believe in altruism. Benevolence is fine.
              The Tit for Tat, and Prisoner dilemma are pshychobable. They are interesting academic exercises, novelties but they are games and in the real world they have little significance. In the real world people in significant numbers do not find themselves in these circumstances or think that deep and the metrics are unconstrained. One may give up their life for others and calculate/decide that they would see their will be done and see another live, thus gaining satisfaction or as you conceive it the good feeling of Altruism. But since you get the satisfaction of seeing your will done it is no longer altruism. Altruism does not exist! The definition of altruism is 1. unselfish concern for the welfare of others; selflessness 2. Ethics- the doctrine that the welfare of society is the proper goal of an individual's actions; opposed to Egoism, Webster. Well, since the "self" was involved in the sacrifice and made choice more satisfying than the alternative it was not selfless. To be selfless is to be null, a sacrificial animal at best. You have denied your own right to existence. It is not my responsibility to put the welfare of society ahead of my own. Again this makes me a resource, a slave. No. Societies welfare is best when individuals are sovereign, and protected, because society is nothing more than an association of individuals.

              Now here you go into a series of disparaging, hyperbolic remarks about Rand that I find unsubstantiated, mis-characterizations or misunderstandings. then an unsubstantiated attack on capitalism being geared only for the men of ability, disregarding any consideration for the overall benefit to man, and offering no serious alternative. Then you demand that the men of ability use the fruit of their labor to "free all men". This is not their duty. Remember you don't accept duty! But you have a duty whether you like it or not, it is to yourself. You must make your fruit in order to survive, or rely on the benevolence of others. You have no moral right to demand it of others, just as you resent the impositions of the social contract. To see otherwise is a contradiction.
              I have spent far too much time on this and I am not inclined to play anymore since I asked you to keep it brief and it appears you wish to write an entire thesis. And I now find myself questioning your intentions and wondering if I am being played.

              Either way I am afraid I can't commit this much time to your inquiries. One cannot expect to solve the worlds problems all at once, even if possible. You are trying to extract a lifetime of study from a man without that much left to spare. You must now be brief and select your particular priorities to argue, and before I consider continuing this dialog, I must know from you, what philosophers, economists, political scientists and founding fathers you have studied and which have influenced you most. I do not have time to sort through all of this, so at this point I am inclined to have you take up your arguments with a group of more scholarly men than myself by advising you on who to study if you are truly interested in examining/challenging your premises. From the reception you are recieving here it might be the best course of action before you seriously re-engage.
              Taxed enough already,
              O.A.
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            • -1
              Posted by 11 years, 11 months ago
              No1laserjocks Philosophical basis per request of Objectiveanalyst,

              No1laserjock’s Premise= {?$}:
              Objevtiveanalysts premise= {$!}


              {$!}#2 Yes, and I believe you have expressed several [Mis] and [Dis] –integrations. I question many of your expressed premises, your metaphysics, epistemology, and your dialectic arguments.

              {?$} First, if you could point out my mis or dis integrations I’d really appreciate it. It is possible I am philosophically “locked out”. I wish to be enlightened.

              However, hopefully I can keep this down to “One Foot”

              Metaphysics: Existence Exists. It is entropic: A is A -the One is in the Many- {Mode I –Integration}

              Existence exists. And the act of that statement implies THREE corollary axioms:
              1. That something exists which one perceives.
              2. That one possesses consciousness: the faculty of perceiving, that which exists,
              3. And one may only act in THIS moment in time.

              Epistemology: I perceive “existence” and perform an act of cognition, integrate the many and induct them into their appropriate particulars and universals. I am looking for the one. I know that A is not B and that I am capable of classifying ‘A’ further, then I may examine ‘B’ for its particulars and universals as compared to A (integration). At this point I do my best to determine the hierarchies of A and B in terms of abstractions, and broad abstractions.

              I try to avoid floating abstractions such as “God”, “Spirituality”, “Infinity” and “Perfection”. They are useless social conventions, except perhaps infinity for its mathematical usefulness, and perhaps perfection for seeing, and acting on the world as it “ought to be”. (jumping ahead a bit)

              Ethics: Since accurate integration of reality (which I think I do extremely well) is required to take action, I am moral. My morality is maintained by insuring others are also free to take action to our mutual benefit without force. Doing so relieves our mutual burden of labor, improves the quality of our life and is mutually beneficial to attain more life. This requires compassion a basic recognition that all suffer (Bhudda). I believe this approach to humanity is objectively within my and his best interest.

              Psychologically this practice, Benevolence / recipricol altruism supports healthy brain function and happiness:

              “Tit for Tat”, “Rock Paper Scissors” Robert Sapolsky Ph.D Stanford.
              “The Prisoners Dillema” James Rilling and Gregory Berns, Ph.D Emory University.

              My ethics can be summed up in part of a song:

              “Do what you wanna
              Do what you will
              Just don't mess up
              Your neighbor's thrill
              'N when you pay the bill
              Kindly leave a little tip
              And help the next poor sucker
              On his one way trip. . .”
              Frank Zappa

              My Politics:

              Man is a creative being capable of reflecting on the universe. He is self-aware and tied to entropy /space/time in simultaneity with all other life and existence. Therefore, any man, group or assertion of supremacy cannot undermine his worth. He requires a nurturing socio-educational system, based on a system of cooperation and abundance for his happiness. He must be free to rationally (based on the metaphysics, epistemology and ethics above) pursue his own creativity and endeavors in concert with environmental concerns, as in this moment he is still environmentally dependant. By bringing his creativity into concert with the natural world, and unity of purpose he will naturally modify his surroundings to ease his and others burdens and achieve “The Good Life.” Any centralized power structure is antithetical to his life.

              Aesthetics:

              Art is the expression of mans most deeply held value judgments. Man ought to present his art as the world ought to be, and be consciously aware of not developing art to undermine mans psycho-epistemological relationship to reality. It should lift mans consciousness to new ideas to improve his world or demonstrate mastery or virtuosity, providing a means of inspiration that fosters creativity.

              On one foot:

              1. Stuff exists and I know it.
              2. I am capable of understanding stuff.
              3. I am good because I can perceive and know stuff.
              A. Compassion is a prerequisite to happiness.
              4. Any system that creates a “social contract is evil.”
              5. Reject, unheroic, uninspired art that supports disintegration or misintegration.
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              • -3
                Posted by 11 years, 11 months ago
                Objectiveanalyst re “making money debate” Premise #3

                No1laserjock’s Premise= {?$}:
                Objevtiveanalysts premise= {$!}


                {?$}Alternatively, to advance a philosophy that shifts from a resource scarcity mentality to a resource abundance mentality, also will require an ‘integration overhaul’ in an individual’s philosophy.


                {$!} #3 Yes. Many possess the unsubstantiated limited resource mentality, from natural resources to money (we “make” money/ value thus increasing the pie). Technology always finds new ways to replace resources. One only need look at the increased production of an acre of farmland over time, to see the benefits.

                {?$} We’re in agreement except ,

                {$!}“We make money /value thus increasing the pie.”

                I’d like to clarify three words (concepts).

                1. Money is the medium represented (traditionally) by a sum of gold. Fiat currency is that which, is instituted by governments (ideally) to represent a sum value of gold. Fair enough?

                How exactly does the act of growing wheat hyper-efficiently, for instance cause the supply of gold to be increased? Or do you mean that since one wants wheat to eat they’ll mine more gold for the wheat? That is not making money, that is expressing your energy to mine the gold in exchange for another’s energy that grew the wheat. Personally, if I am growing wheat, Gold is of no practical or metaphysical use unless I am making semiconductors, or need tarnish-free, reliable electrical connections. Gold is very efficient that way.

                Gold is “made” via supernova nuclear synthesis and the majority of it arrived here over 200 millions years ago via meteoric bombardment. Earths gold and other precious metals were pulled into the molten core. If we could get at all the precious metals there is thought to be enough to cover the earth 4 meters thick! There is an estimated 70 billion tons thought to be dissolved in ocean water and another 10 billion tons on the ocean floor, but we don’t yet have the technology to acquire it.


                2. Value (according to Ayn Rand) “Is something that one acts to gain and or keep”.

                {AR}”To challenge the basic premise of any discipline, one must begin at the beginning. In ethics, one must begin by asking: What are values? Why does man need them?
                “Value” is that which one acts to gain and/or keep. The concept “value” is not a primary; it presupposes an answer to the question: of value to whom and for what? It presupposes an entity capable of acting to achieve a goal in the face of an alternative. Where no alternative exists, no goals and no values are possible.
                {AR}I quote from Galt’s speech: “There is only one fundamental alternative in the universe: existence or nonexistence—and it pertains to a single class of entities: to living organisms. The existence of inanimate matter is unconditional, the existence of life is not: it depends on a specific course of action. Matter is indestructible, it changes its forms, but it cannot cease to exist. It is only a living organism that faces a constant alternative: the issue of life or death. Life is a process of self-sustaining and self-generated action. If an organism fails in that action, it dies; its chemical elements remain, but its life goes out of existence. It is only to a living entity that things can be good or evil.”
                To make this point fully clear, try to imagine an immortal, indestructible robot, an entity which moves and acts, but which cannot be affected by anything, which cannot be changed in any respect, which cannot be damaged, injured or destroyed. Such an entity would not be able to have any values; it would have nothing to gain or to lose; it could not regard anything as for or against it, as serving or threatening its welfare, as fulfilling or frustrating its interests. It could have no interests and no goals.”
                Here’s the crux of the problem:
                “It is only the concept of ‘Life’ that makes the concept of ‘Value’ possible”.
                “Life” is the operative word here.
                Again, we are back to Maslow’s hierarchy of needs:
                · Physiological needs are to do with the maintenance of the human body. If we are unwell, then little else matters until we recover.
                · Safety needs are about putting a roof over our heads and keeping us from harm. If we are rich, strong and powerful, have good friends, or social construct of individual protection, we can make ourselves safe. {?$} “Rich” means securing ones safety supposedly completely independently…
                · Belonging needs introduce our tribal nature. If we are helpful and kind to others they will want us as friends.
                · Esteem needs are for a higher position within a group. If people respect us, we have greater power.
                {?$}Great! If it is an actual achievement. I do not see hording useless crap that we have been conditioned to accept as status symbols as a respectable or necessary achievement. It is childish. Having something that someone else doesn’t have is not a means to acquire self-esteem. It is simply irrational snobbery.
                · Self-actualization needs are to 'become what we are capable of becoming', which would be our greatest achievement.
                How exactly, metaphysically, does a precious gem-encrusted, Unobtainium Crown, necklace, bracelet or Rolex wristwatch (besides knowing the time) enhance life? How can one possibly make the leap that owning a culturally promulgated “artifact” enhances ones needs via Maslow’s principles?
                What exactly does it do to my metabolism and brain function that will make me live longer?
                Consider the DeBeers, Rothchild, JP Morgan diamond monopoly that convinced women that “A diamond is Forever” and through psychological manipulation via advertising, set the outrageous prices for rocks that have no intrinsic value except for their hardness as applied to industrial abrasives. Never mind the monopoly, price fixing and anti-trust situation.
                If I paint a beautiful woman or man in a silver jump-suit surrounded by others who are all involved in the delight of watching a ballet I have presented life as it ought to be.
                Painting the man or woman with a Rolex watch or Diamond necklace, does not change the context in the least as to what is going on. In this case, if anything it would be a distraction.
                I have never seen a piece of art that caused me to want to own something, it has always inspired me to do something. Perhaps I am more evolved… Or just plain too stupid to get it?
                I think that the act of comparing expensive clothing, bobbles, Thneeds and whatzits is absolutely childish. All it says is , “Looky here! I have acquired more resources than you! I am better than you because I am closer to God (the DRK), I am more deserving and come see my self-congratulatory blue ribbon. Pretty sick in my opinion and totally narcissistic.
                “Ooh, ooh, ooh! The Hope Diamond is so beautiful I know I’ll live longer and be happier if I own it!” Wow! This is EXACTLY the same as a child throwing a tantrum because he can’t have the “red one” even though the blue one does exactly the same thing.
                The only reason that anyone would want something so incredibly useless, is that they have been conditioned thanks to the Divine Rights of Kings, that in order to amass resources (land, gold, cattle crops etc.) they must be closer to God. I.e. Better than you!
                There is a lot of psychological programming, and cultural indoctrination that promotes this. There is NO actual need for the diamond -unless you want to cut a really big piece of glass. How many times have you bought something that at the moment was aesthetically pleasing only to have it boxed up and end up in the garage? It is fleeting and intellectually and emotionally ultimately unsatisfying.
                As an aside, concerning ego, there is an 18, 40, 60 rule:
                “When you’re 18, you worry about what everybody is thinking of you; when you 40, you don’t give a darn what anybody thinks of you; when you’re 60, you realize nobody’s been thinking about you at all.” Dr. Daniel Amen
                3. Pie I am presuming this to mean resources; as in the pile of gold gets bigger?
                Or is this “Pie” some unspecific broad abstraction represented by economic theory? I’ll presume you mean gold supply as I can’t think of what other objective referent we could use, as presently, the gov-mint simply prints more fiat money to increase this pie.
                My argument reaches the same conclusion here as “Make Money” above, except that it is implied there is some community Pie, that I am assured to have a slice of if I simply work my ass off and out compete my neighbor then I’ll get a distribution of this wealth? Or if I build a better Frequency Doubled Laser, is there someone who will Twitter the D’anconia Gold mine and say, “Hey! Jamie just built a frequency doubled YAG laser, and someone wants it. You better go chip another 8 oz out of the south-east vein!” Really?
                Again, I maintain that the subset to this social spirit around money is merely an arbitrary tradition. And has absolutely no metaphysical basis in reality as a concrete. Money is a broad abstraction to represent: A method of exchange via a neutral medium. The neutral medium is gov-mint controlled fiat money not gold. I am completely unconvinced that any government can be trusted to set and determine the value of my creative energy and time. If I want to trade for gold or a pound of wheat, I don’t need a middle man or group. Even drug addicts know to avoid the middle man and go directly to the dealer.




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                • -2
                  Posted by 11 years, 11 months ago
                  Objectivanalyst Re Utopian Dream Premise #5

                  No1laserjock’s Premise= {?$}:
                  Objevtiveanalysts premise= {$!}

                  #5
                  {?$}”Consider for a moment that we here in the Gulch, built an actual protected utopia, where people live conservatively, only for the necessities required to sustain creativity, and use the best manufactured devices and tools that are designed for quality (“The best that men have to offer, rather then the shoddiest..”) in order to ease the burden of labor, free the creative mind and thus extend life.”

                  {$!}#5 A Utopian dream. See More’s “Utopia”, or Plato’s “Republic”. Not a good start. People will not bend to others visions. I would suggest you contrast the perspectives of Locke and Montesquieu to those (More, Plato) who imagined they could change man’s nature, rather than except it and benefit from it.

                  “People will not bend to others visions”.

                  {?$}No they wont’t! So what makes you think they’re going to bend to Capitalism; something that has no vision other than profit that pits us against them, and is arguably responsible for all human suffering since the Bhudda left the palaces of the Zamindars. Please don’t tell me that wasn’t capitalism proper. One class horded resources and kept the other class indentured to them by artificially inflating their value when they decide to “distribute’ the surplus wealth.

                  You reference Plato, Locke, and Montesquieu as an argument against a utopian ideal. Are you honestly going to tell me that Galt’s Gulch IS NOT a utopian commune? Please.

                  Anyway referencing them is a non-sequitur because they lived prior to this moment.

                  Plato: 427 –347 BC
                  Montesquieu: 1689-1755 AD
                  John Locke: 1632-1704

                  Did they have computers Charles Babbage 1822, Microsoft, Apple, Intel? No!

                  Did they have the internet and have access to all human knowledge, including the ability to observe events and phenomenon in real-time anywhere on earth, and now portions of other planets via exploratory spacecraft? No!

                  Did they have access to 100-600 watts of solar energy per square meter per hour? No!

                  Did they understand that we would eventually have fusion power? No!

                  Did they have orbiting communications satellites, surveillance satellites and earth-data acquisition satellites? No!

                  Did they have robotic devices to alleviate human labor? No!

                  Did they have a scientific understanding of human behavioural evolution Darwin 1809-1882, Sapolski 1957 – Stanford? No!

                  Did they have any idea of brain science, neurology or psychology, Freud 1836-1939, Split brain studies Gazzinga and Sperry 1950s? No!

                  Did they have PET introduced by David E. Kuhl, Luke Chapman and Roy Edwards in the late 1950s, CAT , MRI, fMRI and SPECT scans to understand the human brain and how it functions? No!

                  Did they believe that we could fly, go to the moon or leave the solar system while viewing it through “the eyes of a machine”? No! Did they even conceive of it? Not until H.G. Wells 1866-1946…

                  I reject their premises because, in fact, they become arguments from ignorance in light of present technology.

                  Also, since man can think, he can modify his nature, a bit of a paradox when trying to anchor him to particular behavioral traits that support a premise. Capitalists essentially maintain that man is a loaded dice of competition, that must have shiny things, so-called “values” (! WTF?) in order to justify, what equates to: I want it! And If I don’t get it, I’ll Cry…

                  …The psycho-epistemology of a child.








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                  • -2
                    Posted by 11 years, 11 months ago
                    Objectiveanalyst re Is Galt’s Gulch a Commune? Premise #6

                    {?$} No1laserjock
                    {$!} Objectiveanalyst


                    {?$) In the Gulch, everyone had some basic laboring job to earn gold, which they traded for their basic living requirements.


                    {$!}#6 A commune where people barter... This never works out well. There will not be abundance. History has abundant examples.

                    Actually, bartering is unnecessary and undesirable as a means for any goods. The implication is that human labor is required for a so-called value now and forever. Isn’t this a “mystic of muscle” approach? People only get values from ideas that free man’s energy. Energy is man’s primary resource and it is axiomatic to a living being.

                    I find it fascinating that capitalists stop at the broad abstraction of “value” and disregard that value comes from energy and creativity. Capitalists invert this by insisting that creating values somehow creates energy. No! Only nutrition, exercise and an unsequestered mind produces energy and creativity a priori to “capital”.

                    This is very simple. You are referencing History, an appeal to history as a logical fallacy.

                    The past does not equal the future. As I pointed out in the previous post “Utopian Dream”

                    One cannot draw on those broad philosophical social and economic generalizations that were conceived and written prior to the present moment.

                    Again, presume I live in Galt’s Gultch, I was a robot expert that also went on strike because the mob was threatening my life. Nevertheless, there I am, renting my property from Midas Mulligan (the government) , on the gold that supposedly represents the value of my ideas, that Ragnar Danneskjold “recovered” for me. Great I have 100 gold bars and ½ again in the same weight of coins of different weights and denominations.

                    I use all my gold to buy materials to build a robot. My robot will do all the laborious work so I don’t have to keep my menial job as Street-sweeper. The robot does it for me.

                    I use the robot to build a spare and then a third. I then offer to trade a robot or the use of a robot to save the rest of the strikers the need for all their menial labor in trade for my sustenance, which allows me to achieve Maslow’s Hierarchy of needs and be completely free to improve the model. They are also now completely free to pursue their creativity by being completely unencumbered by labor.

                    The robot frees all in the valley of manual labor should they not wish to perform it. It does not free them from thought and action, and as such the stikers lives are made easier as is mine. I keep developing a better robot that incorporates Galt’s motor. It can now run indefinitely and the other robots can repair it. Resources are now free to access. There is abundance. All the strikers are now completely free to think and create since their caloric needs are in greater reserve for brain functioning, rather than being squandered digging up potatos.

                    I don’t need the gold anymore unless it is a material required for the machine (that can mine the gold). Now what value is Midas Mulligan giving me? The right to use –THE EARTH- the absolute most fundamental requirement for life!- HIS property? (!)

                    I have never witnessed a human being make land yet. Maybe someday he can terraform a planet but I think he’ll have out grown money and chimpanzee politics by then.

                    What is it throughout history that has given man his “rights” to his land?

                    “First come first serve! AND if you don’t like it I or my Army will run you through!”
                    Might Makes Right / Mystics of Muscle /Divine Rights of Kings

                    At this point in history I think so-called capitalism and communism have an equally bad rap. How many people have to die at the hands of their governments to justify the other? There has never been a good idea at the point of a gun. All we have now are guns pointed at us. I want them out of my way. The only way to do that is to apply technology, get our values in order as to who we are as a species, and where we are going. Voluntarily, and by demonstrating that there is a mutually beneficial long term goal worth working towards. The Greeks Called it “The Good Life.” Maybe every one else is settling for the lessor of two evils but I am not! I will not give up.

                    It is interesting to note that any private, or collective property that one holds, whether land or “a toothbrush” can be “collided upon”. An idea cannot it is impervious (until we have thought rays anyway –God forbid-) to access without one’s consent. What then, are we grasping so damn tightly? If any one or many own something that can be collided upon there will always be the necessity of war… All we have to do is think…

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                    • -2
                      Posted by 11 years, 11 months ago
                      I hate to add this but I am afraid editing will f up the format so ill leave the above alone... Anyway, You all realize that Ayn Rand is absolutely directing your subconscious to the fact of Galt's motor being the ultimate energy resource to change the world! Er, isn't THAT what Dagny is doing? Seeking the good life for all? I read A.S. many times and listened to it many times am I the only one that got that beautiful, heroic sci fi vision?
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                      • Posted by $ jmlesniewski 11 years, 11 months ago
                        Galt's motivation in creating the motor aren't the same as Dagny's before she goes on strike.
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                        • Posted by 11 years, 11 months ago
                          I stand corrected. He did it not to increase efficency, not to help anyone make life better, the reason a capitalist (an honest one anyway) hangs out a shingle, I guess he did it to make a buck and then Dagny found something wonderful, that she clearly couldn't conceive of creating, intended to have it reverse engineered just so she could make a buck by stuffing it into a locomotive engine? Is that about right?
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    Posted by 11 years, 11 months ago

    The Premise:

    Capitalism is NOT the only system geared to the life of a rational being.

    Ayn Rand makes the assertion -not a reasoned metaphysical argument or epistemological argument- that she shores up with deductive reasoning, NOT inductive reasoning. I.e. there is no metaphysical concrete regarding capitalism to induct it as an axiom. She asserts her position with multi angular, seemingly well-reasoned arguments. And she was right considering her analysis of human history and development in that time.

    She asserts:

    “[Capitalism is] the only system geared to the life of a rational being.”

    {…A Completely respectable position considering her arguments commensurate with that time.}

    However, human beings are tied to time and as cognition develops consciousness changes over time, absorbing wider and wider premises, and thus technology increases. As technology increases man’s labor is reduced freeing him to pursue his creative endeavors.

    What is Labor in its most basic terms? The expression and use of human energy.

    What exactly was it that the members of Galt’s Gulch were doing with their energy? Creating and laboring.

    What did man do when he used his energy to pick up a heavy stick or mammoth femur and use it for a weapon? He performed a creative metaphysical integration to reality, then an act of labor to kill his prey, attack his neighbor, or defend his territory.

    Consider that humans did not have currency per se, until about 2500 years ago. Man was clearing forests and applying agricultural techniques 50,000 years ago! So how did man manage to survive and thrive for 47,500 some odd, years without money if it is indeed “[T]he only system geared to life of a rational being?”

    {If you can clear a forest to grow a crop you just might be a rational being!}

    Oh, and his brain wasn’t that different than ours…

    Money is merely a socially accepted, construct created as a convenient means to trade.

    Money is not a metaphysical concrete any more than society is. The terms can be rationally changed by philosophical choices and considerations.

    The money standard requires a scarcity mentality rather than abundance one.

    The only reason anything has value is either because it is thought to be scarce and thus egoically satisfying to acquire it, or it relieves the burden of labor.

    Creativity reduces scarcity. I.e. Fuel economy is increased by microprocessors, that were developed by a creative mind (I presume because they enjoyed it), that have expanded the oil supply.

    Creativity expands materials science and use: I.e. we can make gold, although it is radioactive at this time. There is no reason that we can not make all the gold we need –or any other material for that matter; We’ve had synthetic diamonds since 1953!


    Is it possible that we have reached a point where trading is no longer the natural state of man but rather advanced education to expand his creativity and thus his ability to use technology to free him from burdensome labor once and for all?

    Terms:

    Let’s stick to the premises, carefully examine our emotions, and avoid logical fallacies –especially insults.

    If I commit a logical fallacy, I promise to be gracious, examine it or accept, correct or retract it. I expect the same level of maturity from you! Please review logical fallacies online. I am referencing wiki as I have not yet memorized them all.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fal...

    I will extend a morally blank check for 2 emotional digressions per person, once exceeded I will not respond further to the post until it is corrected.

    I will also use the Ayn Rand Lexicon online as a reference to clarify her position so we all don’t go reasserting her premises in our own terms.

    http://aynrandlexicon.com/

    This is a work in progress…



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    • Posted by lostinaforest 11 years, 11 months ago
      You have made a series of empirical claims, but you have not cited any empirical evidence in support of those claims. For example, as khalling has pointed out, your claim that "man was clearing forests and applying agricultural techniques 50,000 years ago" is certainly questionable, and given that most evidence places this around 10,000ya, you need to cite evidence in support of your claim.

      Also, you appear to be committing several logical fallacies yourself. For example, you claim that "creativity reduces scarcity" and in support of that assertion, you argue that "fuel economy is increased by microprocessors, that were developed by a creative mind ... that have expanded the oil supply". Supposing it is true that engines controlled by microprocessors are more fuel efficient than engines that are not controlled by microprocessors, this would not directly change the amount of fuel available. Rather it would only change the amount of fuel needed to run microprocessor-controlled engines---thus potentially reducing the demand for oil. Further, you also commit the fallacy of faulty generalisations here, because even if this were one instance where creativity *did* reduce scarcity, it would not prove that creativity *always* reduces scarcity.

      But ignoring these problems and looking more generally at the basic rationale behind your argument, you seem to be claiming that capitalism does not foster creativity, and that "advanced education" would be a more effective means to this end. What is the basis for this claim? Again, this is an empirical claim, for which you would need empirical evidence.

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      • Posted by 11 years, 11 months ago
        Lostinaforest my errors and response.

        Hey there!

        Thanks for your kind response and correction of my errors. I really appreciate your civility. This is an inflammatory subject. We have to face the reality that it will require a philosophical change to either re-embrace capitalism or adjust ourselves to a new paradigm:

        Like it or not, over 80% of individuals in the west are now employed in the service sector do to advancements in robotics and machine intelligence. Consider:

        A robot hand that outperforms human capability for accuracy speed and repeatability:

        http://youtu.be/-KxjVlaLBmk

        Consider that machines can print:


        Meat: http://news.cnet.com/8301-11386_3-574933...

        Organs: http://www.ted.com/talks/anthony_atala_p...

        Materials: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aghzpO_U...

        Now consider the implication that a machine CAN build a machine… It can replicate.

        We need a MAJOR paradigm shift as soon as possible!

        You’re right. I made a mistake. I accept that agriculture started approximately 10,000 years ago rather than 50,000 years. Therefore that left man operating without official governmental fiat currency to trade for almost 7000 years. I stand corrected. He did trade shells, food, shiny bobbles, things he made that others couldn’t etc.

        ”Also, you appear to be committing several logical fallacies yourself. For example, you claim that "creativity reduces scarcity" and in support of that assertion, you argue that "fuel economy is increased by microprocessors, that were developed by a creative mind ... that have expanded the oil supply".

        Perhaps I am not understanding you. Producing a microprocessor empirically involves a human mind –only in this moment. A creative mind that can integrate the nature of silicon, gold and other elements and materials to build a microprocessor.

        Did microprocessors NOT increase fuel economy? What do you think the computer is for in your vehicle? Or is my entire premise rendered inconsequential because I didn’t reference that particular premise:

        http://papers.sae.org/800056/


        No, it does not actually change the volume of the fuel on earth it increases and extends its useful energy potential buying us more time to invent new energy or discover a new resource.

        However, we are irrationally squandering it rather than using its available energy to find a more efficient means, because its use is immediately profitable to produce more junk, and unnecessarily complex blow-molded plastics so my drinking water will appeal more psychologically attractive, and so the USB stick I want is packaged in giant blow molded capsule that probably wasted about 4 gallons of oil.

        Is this a necessary “evil” of capitalism?

        “Further, you also commit the fallacy of faulty generalisations here, because even if this were one instance where creativity *did* reduce scarcity, it would not prove that creativity *always* reduces scarcity.”

        Is it a prerequisite that creativity ‘always’ reduce scarcity to be worthy of application? Perhaps it is a generalization but my application of the generalization is not to apply it as a direct disintegration of capitalism but rather demonstrate that scarcity is ultimately an illusion because of man’s mind and his creative capabilities. I maintain that man, due to his creative nature is a heroic being. I maintain it is against his nature to have an arbitrary government controlling him.

        It seems to me as I have begun fielding these questions that there is a bit of an elephant in the living room: Man is a sinner and requires government control. If you want fiat currency you need a government to enforce it.

        If man is inherently good, heroic he can out think his need to squander resources and his socially instilled compulsion of acquisition. Only his philosophy and emotions stop him.

        Or is man simply a competitive hunter gatherer that trades to the highest bidder with no regard to his environment?

        No capitalism simply is less of an impediment to creativity than other politico-economic systems. To say it “Fosters it’ is also an empirical claim. Just how does a broad abstraction that represents a particular practice of exchanging goods foster creativity?

        Say we live in a completely capitalistic society. I am a musician (yes a completely uses flake that produces no traditional values or goodies like any other artist) and aside from my editorializing, if I wish to learn to play the violin for instance, I must go out and trade my physical or creative efforts in an area that at best might be somewhat related to the field, for employment or self-employment (as I am now) use my irreplaceable time to acquire my “gold”, then trade it for lessons rinse and repeat. My time is thus being used inefficiently in laborious energy against the time required to achieve mastery quickly and efficiently. This is irrational and immoral.

        Now suppose my particular style is technically and compositionally innovative and I have reached mastery. If all goes well, and people like my music I sell tickets to my performance. What do I use the money for: Establishing Maslows Heirarchy of needs.

        All of which can be attained without money. And we don’t have to revert to savagery to accomplish it.

        For those that say its “Capitalism or Slavery”: A false Dichotomy Bifurcation. Must understand that the underscoring dialectic is that man is a sinner. A contradiction in objectivism’s derivation of ethics based on mans relationship to reality as a goal-seeking being.

        If a man is shipwrecked on a deserted Island or is flying to a distant Galaxy on a spacecraft, he does not need money for anything. He does need energy though.

        Consider Galts motor. Now consider there is 100-600 watts of solar energy per square meter striking the earth hourly. That is 2.4 – 14.4 Kilowatts a day. It takes approximately 1300 milliwatts to operate a smart phone, which has more computational ability than all of NASA during the Apollo missions, and graphics processor capabilities rivaling the latest super computers.

        You have access to the entire edifice of human knowledge and creativity in the palm of your hand! If you wished, and had in interest in curing a particular disease, you can write a shared computing app and Joila! Now your folding proteins as you text dinner plans.

        To do this you need cooperation. Funny how people realize that there is a selfish vested interest in sharing their computer if it means a cure for cancer. A capitalist will insist that unused computing power in his pocket must be paid for no rational reason, other than it is a resource he can exploit to his own egoic ends.
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        • -2
          Posted by 11 years, 11 months ago
          I'm sorry you chose to concede your position. I am sorry that emotions are a higher value for you. But for others that may continue to wish to discuss this, Here is my reply.

          First, You have violated the rules of civil discourse by essentially wrapping a number of logical fallacies into a veiled ad hominem attack. If you read my first post under lostinaforests first post (who beat me to it) you will see that I am exploring this issue and I intend to argue against to the best of my cognitive ability. I am willing to accept my errors. I may we wrong. I do not believe I am after very careful consideration. I will concede if necessary.

          For the edification of others here are your logical fallacies:

          1. “I'm not even going to finish reading this ode to your Thesaurus.”

          Logical Fallacies: Appeal to ridicule and appeal to ignorance.

          You’re simply attempting to distract the recipient (others reading this) by suggesting by means of ridicule and mockery that I am merely an ignoramus consulting a thesaurus.

          2. “If you cannot explain something in clear, simple terms, then you don't understand it.”

          Logical Fallacy: Poisoning the Well by introducing a thought-terminating cliché.

          3. “This reminds me of all the gibberish artist's resumes I've seen that attempt to disguise a lack of substance with flowery, and obfuscating prose.”

          Logical Fallacy Poisoning the well by positing the word “Gibberish”.



          My Apologies for not being glued to my monitor awaiting your response then immediately replying. There are other people here too that I am responding to. I try to use my time efficiently. And respond as precisely as I can without rashly engaging my own emotions and jumping in before I understood the specifics.

          I have worked very hard to economize my language as I do not wish to spend the time explaining the meaning of ‘epistemology’ for instance. Which level should I write to?

          Yes these ARE pretty sharp people. I am assuming they’re at or near my level. I am assuming they have read most of Ayn Rands work numerous times like I have. I am assuming that they also went backwards and at least read some good encapsulations of western philosophy. I am also assuming there are a lot of Objectivist detractors here that irrationally post their random bromides, as well as many theists who are critical to Objectivism’s apparent lack of compassion (as am I).

          I am also factoring the considerations of, Philosophy, Human Behavioral Evolution, Brain Development, Psychology and Social behavior. Man does not live in a vacuum of philosophy. He is also tremendously influenced by the evolutionary stages of his brain development, as well as the influences of nurture.

          I believe my premises are objective and axiomatic to mans nature capitalism is not.

          First warning: You committed an Ad hominem attack. An insult, albeit veiled. That is not the tradition of rational discourse. Be aware that if you do it again you will have lost your position to emotionalism. Sure the whole group may agree with you, but it will still remain as an unintellectually defended position. Furthermore, after the second offence (which I think is rather generous assuming that my opponents here are reasonably rational) it becomes irrational for me to waste my time: my most precious, irreplaceable commodity to continue to engage emotionalism.

          Here you go simple terms in the Socratic tradition:

          Have you played Monopoly? How do you win? What happens to the “losers”?
          You won “the game” now what will you do? Are you getting bored and wish to bring others back into the game? Do you redistribute your “wealth” and start over? Do you PRINT MORE MONEY!? What if the loser happens to be a country with nuclear weapons? Do you think it is possible to win a nuclear war?

          The thing is, you ARE playing monopoly at the point of a gun accept it or not. If you don’t wish to live on the street and eventually die you must submit to threats of cops and cages and the sickening array of regulations that have been installed. Do you have any loans? Are you using credit? You ARE already a Slave! Even if somehow you miraculously managed to pay for all your goodies in their entirety, you still don’t actually own it! And you’re not taking it with you. So what is it that you really need?

          Sure you can argue for capitalism but its gone and it is not going to come back unless it is at the point of a gun. We’ve already lost most of the country to Misintegrators and Disintegrators of all stripes.

          I presume you wish to be free? So does every other intelligent living creature.

          Capitalism fakes reality by arbitrarily assigning scarcity to a culturally accepted particular concrete: Gold.

          Capitalism coupled with human creativity is self-negating because people wish to reduce the burden of labor. This is proper to man to achieve the good-life. He should not be relieved of his creativity. As he relieves the burden of labor he also relieves the scarcity associated with capitalistic practices.

          Presently, over 80% of the west is employed in the service sector, as they are being displaced out of repetitive laboring jobs, that robots can do faster, more efficiently and reliably. Humanity is now in an information age and exploding with creativity.

          Thanks to irrational profit incentives, machines will eventually displace the service sector. Many countries already have automated cafes.

          As we see, players are falling off the board, and they are sore losers!

          There is no metaphysical reason that gold or any other arbitrary material must be the means of trade.

          Have you examined what it is behind trade and what guides man’s presumed necessity of it? He desires something more than an item he has a surplus of. Rationally, this would be to make his life better.

          Not all men think rationally. For instance, If I insulted you, you will probably insult me back (judging from your post). This is a phenomenon that presents itself from bacteria all the way through the entire animal kingdom. It is called “Tit for Tat.” I am sure you and everyone here has experienced or committed it as I just did. It is an evolutionary behavior that all animals engage in within their species: “Reciprocal Altruism” But it is not self-sacrificing it is a complete system and the species continues to evolve.

          What are the terms required to make one’s life better? Shall it simply be the irrational tantrum of a child who wants it arbitrarily? For instance, if you wish to argue that a Ferrari makes your life better. What value is it, that you actually get from the Ferrari?

          If you argue that man’s nature is to acquire shiny things, he is a loaded dice. I know I am not. I don’t need a Rolex or a Ferrari. All it gives you is an egoic buzz when someone says, “Nice Watch!” or “Nice Car”. The complement would mean something to me if I built the car. But my definition of a nice whatzit is one that serves me reliably and efficiently. So far this is NOT what the majority of industries are producing. They are intentionally holding back on their best model, knowing that profit can be made on the inferior one. That is irrational and immoral because it squanders resources and increases waste.

          You say, “Money seeks the best men have to offer”? Perhaps, but this requires a rational man. How do you propose to make men rational? Its not going to happen in the progressive western schools where they “Teach Johnny, rather than history.”

          I believe considering the level of technology and the availability of the internet we can self-govern without a centralized institution of unintegrated human beings elected by mob rule. (Might makes right)

          You are chained to the cave wall, by tradition and indoctrination. Check your premises. There is no metaphysical reason to accept her assertion, based on an argument from ignorance and tradition that capitalism is “[T]he only system geared to life of a rational being.”

          I believe that creative expression is required to find a cure for cancer or build a super collider. Man simply cannot express his creativity to perfect his natural environment for optimal life support, and maintenance for himself and others if he is wasting his precious time and calories chasing the last piece of cheese: Capitalism.
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          • Posted by khalling 11 years, 11 months ago
            we do not have a good working def. of capitalism. when Rand said capitalism, she was talking about an economic system nestled in freedom.
            1.humans main survival tool is their rational facalties. brains have to be free to function effectively. true today as when Rand first stated.
            2.Monopoly(game)=life. False. Monopoly is not win/win. it is a zero sum game essentially. in a capitalistic econ. that is not the case.
            3. capitalism comes back at the point of a gun. False. antithesis of capitalism. capitalism is the removal of guns/force as the method of persuassion.
            4. every intelligent creature wants to be free. False. plenty of people who are happy to be dictators and moochers. they r not free, and they don't want it for others.
            5. loans/credit=slavery. False. TAXES are slavery. credit and loans are part of your freedom to contract.
            6.capitalism does not arbitrairily assign ANYTHING to scociety's goals.
            I am not going to continue. because every premise you build your argument on, is inconsistent with the ideas of Ayn Rand. False premises=false conclusions
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            • -1
              Posted by 11 years, 11 months ago
              I am happy to address this. But please don’t try to poison the well because I am posting a long and involved premise.

              we do not have a good working def. of capitalism. when Rand said capitalism, she was talking about an economic system nestled in freedom.

              I agree that we do not. And by what definition constitutes freedom? To me it means pursuing my physical, creative and intellectual interests. Without coercion, indentured servitude or deontological ethics infecting my brain.

              1.humans main survival tool is their rational facalties. brains have to be free to function effectively. true today as when Rand first stated.

              True but humans didn’t require a student loan to invent a wheel then have to pay it back. They did it because it freed human energy. We apply our creative energy to relieve the burden of labor. If this wasn’t the case we would not have developed agriculture or anything making life easier. We started capitalizing later, when we realized we could hold out to the highest bidder.

              2.Monopoly(game)=life. False. Monopoly is not win/win. it is a zero sum game essentially. in a capitalistic econ. that is not the case.

              Not for those that loose!

              3. capitalism comes back at the point of a gun. False. antithesis of capitalism. capitalism is the removal of guns/force as the method of persuasion.

              Really? All capitalists insist on a Laissez faire government? A government with Guns… “To Protect the rights of individuals and their property.”

              I see, you wish to win the monopoly game and keep the losers at bay via threats of guns, cops and cages with your proceeds.

              I can think of something better: An educational and access economy to goods and services wherein if I happen to need a car for an hour I check one out. Why should the resources be wasted to build a car for every possible social stratification and personal taste. Do you need a pearlescent red car to get you from point A to B? No.

              4. every intelligent creature wants to be free. False. plenty of people who are happy to be dictators and moochers. they r not free, and they don't want it for others.

              That’s right and they have nuclear bombs!

              Well, then you have the same problem I do! The people that you are speaking of believe in duty-centered ethics by force, whether to God or the State. I reject it. An access and educational based “economy” (for lack of a better word) of shared ideas that improve life for all without force is a much better idea in my estimation and opinion. However, it can only be voluntary. Same problem with Capitalism. I think capitalism is a step backwards considering present technology.

              5. loans/credit=slavery. False. TAXES are slavery. credit and loans are part of your freedom to contract.

              True if we operated in pure capitalism but the creditors are so far from ethical it is nauseating. The system today is designed to create indentured servants to a reality-faking corporate oligarchy, who is coupling itself with the government and becoming a totalitarian dictator. The masses are still deprived (I believe intentionally by Dewey, James and Woodrow Wilson) of a classical education. Instead it has been replaced with progressivism. Education has turned into a gate-keeping system of indoctrination and grooming of the individual to be placed into the “proper class” or area that the system tells him he is best at: Liberal Arts and Politics perhaps, or maybe “Factory analyst and systems supervisor”. If he demonstrates that he can think too much he is probably groomed into the sciences so he’ll keep his creative ideas in the lab.

              It is now almost impossible for a doctor (thanks to Obama) to enjoy a practice of helping people. No. Now he spends a tremendous portion of his time complying with regulations rather than treating people. You all know this…

              6.capitalism does not arbitrarily assign ANYTHING to society’s goals.

              There is no such thing as a “societal goal” per se. Society is a broad abstraction that represents individuals. And yes it does require some “agreed upon” standard (by capitalistic definition precious and scarce) in order to represent the energy of human labor.
              For example lets say 1 gram of gold equals 1 pound of wheat to represent that individuals ability and energy to produce it. If I needed a chicken and it provided an equivalent amount of food energy I don’t need to fool with the gold coin.
              The only argument that one could posit here is the fact that we need to move goods from point A to point B. Gold is heavy, it can be “cut” or stolen by bandits. Thus fiat currency was developed to stop bandits from stealing the gold you were carrying to exchange for 1000 pounds of wheat or whatever via promissory note.


              I am not going to continue. because every premise you build your argument on, is inconsistent with the ideas of Ayn Rand. False premises=false conclusions

              I see, Ayn Rand is the final word on objectivism. We can all Stop thinking, we need go no further. She has all the rules laid out for us. Oh Brother!
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              • Posted by khalling 11 years, 11 months ago
                I'll start at the bottom and go back.
                Ayn Rand is the final word on objectivism. We can all Stop thinking.

                you first have to understand Rand's Objectivism in order to go further. Often liberals will twist and subvert arguments. "right" had a specific def. to the founders of the Costitution and could not have meant a "right" to healthcare or equal pay.
                your idea of going "forward" is like going from Newtonian physics back to greek physics. If you want to be honest about disagreeing with Rand then state it. don't say you're an Objectivist.
                Gold:
                there were 10k ypes of currency before the Civil War. People choose currencies. this does not req. a govt. quit pretending that this means you r a slave to any commercial transaction. freely accepted mediums of exchange are not coercion. If you want to discuss legal tender laws, then make a specific post about that for discussion, but you've thrown arguments about gold around with no grounding-a foundational assertion from which to build your argument.
                renting a car for an hour:
                ????this is a business concept. you are rambling here"at the point of a gun"
                in a capitalistic society, the govts job is to STOP others from initiating force at the point of a gun.
                we are not a capitalist society. but you can't yell at capitalism using examples in the US. Are you suggesting we operate as a capitalist society? if so, you are wrong. we are heavily fascist. student loans.
                once again, there is no coherent argument here. what do student loans have to do with increasing technology? you hate the banking industry. if you want to rationally discuss why our banking system is not working as it should, then develop that argument by itself. but don't lump student loans witth levels of technology with service sector with monopoly.
                this is classic liberal arguing. purposely ignoring or subverting the definitions of words, combining multiple concepts into one argument that is an emotional rant and rave.
                if you want this discussion to get you points, go back to the books. bring out and dust off a Rand capitalism assertion which you disagree with and build your argument for why you disagree.
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