The Online Freedom Academy

Posted by helidrvr 10 years, 7 months ago to Education
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For some time now I have been meaning to share this website on Galt's Gulch. I first came across it in 2006 and have used it has become my favorite tool for teaching the NAP.
SOURCE URL: http://www.tolfa.us


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  • Posted by preimert1 10 years, 7 months ago
    I took the test and initially scored 77.
    Then I went back and answered as I supposed an anarchist would and scored 99. No comment.
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    • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 7 months ago
      I don't know. With only the exception to the draft card issue, I thought all the remainder of the questions were reasonably situated so that a limited government role would be reasonable - as originally envisioned by the Constitution.
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    • Posted by ewv 10 years, 7 months ago
      If you were more careful about their equivocations and took them into account you might have scored less than the 77 in the first round. But reading better interpretations into something that combines stealing Ayn Rand's ideas with, and on behalf of, promoting their opposite by giving it the benefit of the doubt is only part of it. We don't have to infer or guess, the site explicitly advocates "doing away with government altogether".
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  • Posted by Flootus5 10 years, 7 months ago
    Yes, very interesting site. I initially scored a 97. And then did Segment 1. I came across an interesting precept embedded in Question 6.

    #6 So, you have the right to do anything you like with your own life. Are there any limits at all on that power?

    One of the multiple choice answers to that question is:

    Only that I am forbidden to harm someone else.

    If you choose that answer it comes up with:

    No! Who said anything about being forbidden? - Forbidden by whom? And by what right? Restudy Segment 1 please, then try again.

    Interesting. What if you considered it a rational conclusion that it is wrong to harm someone else and recognize that "axiom" (by their usage of that term) as a limit on your "power"? The forbidding we are contemplating here comes from yourself as a logical step in framing a rational morality. And that is wrong?

    Who are these guys?
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    • Posted by Kittyhawk 10 years, 7 months ago
      To me, "forbidden" implies that it being forced on you from the outside, as in "forbidden fruit." (Forbidden by whom? By God.) To say I have decided not to do something, or that I believe something to be immoral, I wouldn't say, "I'm forbidden from doing that." The question does seem intentionally tricky, though, probably to make us think about who has the right to "forbid" us from doing something.
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      • Posted by 10 years, 7 months ago
        Approach it from a different angle altogether.

        I avoid committing acts of aggression against others lest they do the same or worse to me.

        It really becomes that simple in the end.

        OCCAM'S RAZOR.
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        • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 7 months ago
          What about the person who does extremely violent acts so as to subdue all others and place them in a state of fear? Is there anything that "forbids" them from doing that?
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          • Posted by 10 years, 7 months ago
            Yes, the ability of his intended victims to defend themselves and/or cooperate with others in self defense. Most potential victims would also most likely have purchased insurance, but with a critical difference in context - the insurers would no longer rely on the state for loss prevention or mitigation, they would be highly motivated to take care of this themselves.

            What is becoming rather tiring about these type of questions is that they are defensive or argumentative but lack any real value because the questioners are continuously inventing "gotcha" scenarios which they have not thought through or placed in their proper context. From here on out I am not going to respond to this type off "what if" scenarios. Sorry, but you'll just have to work them out for yourself. It's easy to do. Just replace "what if?" with "how could I effectively deal with [insert your scenario] in a stateless society?".
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        • Posted by Kittyhawk 10 years, 7 months ago
          Sure, that's a more natural phrasing, like "Do unto others as you would have done to you." The TOLFA question using "forbidden" (a similar word is "taboo") makes it sound to me like an external limitation, from rulers or society. But I think some people were interpreting it to be "forbidden" because of a self-imposed restriction.
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    • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 7 months ago
      That line of reasoning seems fallacious. How does my life have anything to do with someone else's? It only does if I so choose it too. And therein lies the problem - they want to allow you to choose for another, but then that violates the liberty of that other person.
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      • Posted by 10 years, 7 months ago
        Huh? How does never initiating aggression against another person violate that person's liberty?
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        • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 7 months ago
          I was answering Flootus5's post:
          - "Only that I am forbidden to harm someone else.

          If you choose that answer it comes up with:

          No! Who said anything about being forbidden? - Forbidden by whom? And by what right? Restudy Segment 1 please, then try again."

          So, the "teaching" material says that if you believe that you are prohibited from harming another, then you need to be "retrained" - who says you're prohibited, etc. That's fallacious reasoning. If I'm free to choose, and I believe in NAP, then ipso facto I'm prohibited as that is a core premise. But that premise is fallacious as it calls for me to choose for another. That if I believe in NAP, then the only reason to use force against another is to pro-actively prevent the use of force against me, thus I've made a choice for the other person that they are going to use force against me. Thus, I've removed their liberty and assumed it myself.

          And, if you're not prohibited, then what stops anyone from just becoming the biggest baddest ass on the block? It is in their interest to subjugate others to serve them, so why not?

          And if I'm able to use force in some circumstances and not in others, then who arbitrates on whether it was a proper use of force?
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          • Posted by 10 years, 7 months ago
            > what stops anyone from just becoming the biggest baddest ass on the block? <

            Reading "The Virtue of Selfishness" may help you begin to figure out the answer to that one.
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            • Posted by khalling 10 years, 7 months ago
              and the answer is...


              "If a society provided no organized protection against force, it would compel every citizen to go about armed, to turn his home into a fortress, to shoot any strangers approaching his door—or to join a protective gang of citizens who would fight other gangs, formed for the same purpose, and thus bring about the degeneration of that society into the chaos of gang-rule, i.e., rule by brute force, into perpetual tribal warfare of prehistorical savages.

              The use of physical force—even its retaliatory use—cannot be left at the discretion of individual citizens. Peaceful coexistence is impossible if a man has to live under the constant threat of force to be unleashed against him by any of his neighbors at any moment. Whether his neighbors’ intentions are good or bad, whether their judgment is rational or irrational, whether they are motivated by a sense of justice or by ignorance or by prejudice or by malice—the use of force against one man cannot be left to the arbitrary decision of another." Virtue of Selfishness
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              • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 7 months ago
                That is the argument for government. And I agree. But even government is comprised of men, and men are corruptible and seek power for power's sake, thus even government needs to answer to something higher.

                At it's most fundamental, that "higher" entity is culture. What values have been ascribed to by the populace and are fostered in the teachings and traditions that are imparted on the young. One of the most effective ways to impart culture is through religion.
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              • Posted by 10 years, 7 months ago
                Well I obviously stuck my foot in it with that one. I had a different section in mind, but that doesn't matter. With this one a totally disagree. Ms. Rand in this and other similar passages of her writings simply goes off making assumptions or expressing beliefs without citing any factual evidence to support them. Then she goes on to describe something like Galt's Gulch which totally contradicts the above passage. Go figure. So which is it? Just saying.
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                • Posted by khalling 10 years, 7 months ago
                  well in the Gulch they all agreed to rules. They agreed that Dagny would have to leave, for example. call it private, call it public-but it is still a form of government
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                  • Posted by 10 years, 7 months ago
                    Voluntary governance is something entirely different from coercive government. This is a fundamental error made by so many. In considering the concept of anarchy they assume that it means a free for all without any rules of conduct. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Statists also like to reinforce this fallacy in public schools and via the main stream media to advance their own agenda.
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                    • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 7 months ago
                      No it's not. Governance is governance. The only thing different is the mechanism used to carry out the governance. The problem with an anarchy is that by definition there is no mechanism to cause things to happen that any single entity doesn't want to have happen. Or, alternatively, there is nothing to stop an entity or more from doing whatever they like. In either case you end up with tyranny. It is either tyranny of the many (nothing gets accomplished because all are tyrants) or tyranny of the one (where one dominates all and mostly what gets accomplished benefits one).
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                      • Posted by khalling 10 years, 7 months ago
                        where I deviate is the actual mechanism in place. whether private (voluntary) or not (public)there is still enforcement. I put a link on another post of a book called Jefferson's Moose. The author makes the case that settling the West was much like governance by voluntary/private means. The term "wild west" was somewhat of a misnomer, overall communities thrived by hiring their police and judicial services. His other major example is the internet.The cooperation and development have not had government oversight until states voted to be a taxing authority. That started the slip into a strong federal push we are seeing now. So many of the pioneers were immigrants and I am skeptical they completely knew and understood what our Constitution was. But those ideas were already in action-the action of Capitalism, which included the concept of a man's creation is his own, in settling and working the land or panning for gold.
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            • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 7 months ago
              Yeah, yeah, I understand that if I own myself and others own themselves that it is in everyone's self-interest to respect everyone's liberty/sovereignty/etc. I don't buy it. I'll show you that history is replete with those that did very well as tyrants. And if I do well, what the hell do I care about you?
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    • Posted by ewv 10 years, 7 months ago
      They are anarchists who combine stealing Ayn Rand's ideas with contradicting them. It is not new and was thoroughly denounced and demolished in Ayn Rand's essay on the nature of government.
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      • Posted by 10 years, 7 months ago
        And in the real world, Ayn Rand's essay has been thoroughly denounced and demolished by the metastasizing growth of political power over every minute detail of your life.

        Don't get me wrong, I am a great admirer of Ms. Rand and her work, but that does not render me incapable of questioning her or of independent thought.
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        • Posted by ewv 10 years, 7 months ago
          The growth of statism is the opposite of what Ayn Rand advocated. It does not "demolish" her ideas, it confirms them. Claiming to be "independent" and "questioning" is no defense of anarchism.
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          • Posted by 10 years, 7 months ago
            I have no desire to "defend" anything, only to follow certain lines of reasoning to their logical conclusion and make every effort to avoid logical fallacies in the process.

            In the process I have come to conclude that initiating aggression against others is wrong on principle - no exceptions. Coercing others by proxy under color of "government" is worse - it is the cowardice of bullies and the predation of sociopaths.
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    • Posted by 10 years, 7 months ago
      > What if you considered it a rational conclusion [...] < You are correct. We are all self governing, self limiting creatures without the need to resort to aggression.
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      • Posted by ewv 10 years, 7 months ago
        Without the need for aggression for what purpose? People do it all the time in pursuit of immoral and irrational purposes, and they do it without "self limiting". Utopian anarchistic fantasies don't stop it, they help to let it loose on us.
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  • Posted by squareone 10 years, 7 months ago
    Where there are no absolute standards and only opinions prevail, trial by combat settles things, as in the Middle Ages.
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    • Posted by 10 years, 7 months ago
      In this day and age, voluntary arbitration is a far more likely scenario for conflict resolution.
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      • Posted by khalling 10 years, 7 months ago
        again, arbitration must be enforced
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        • Posted by 10 years, 7 months ago
          Absolutely, but since by definition it would involve settlement concerning a preceding event of aggression, this would cause no conflict with the NAP. Additionally, such enforcement would largely be "soft" - a hike in the loser's liability insurance premium, ostracism etc. Restitution would be the order of the day, incarceration as punishment (who is going to pay the associated expense?) rare or non-existent.
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          • Posted by khalling 10 years, 7 months ago
            what happens when those with money or guns decide to hijack the process? it's the same problem as a govt.
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            • Posted by Kittyhawk 10 years, 7 months ago
              I don't think this is a valid reason not to try. To say "We shouldn't get rid of coercive government because if we try freedom, someday, somehow, we might end up with a coercive government again" is a bit like saying, "I shouldn't remove this splinter from my foot, because someday, somehow I might get another one."

              At this point, it's all hypothetical what the results would be if we eliminated government. But my hope is that people would step up to the challenge and find solutions to prevent future tyranny. Without the collusion of the media, politicians and courts, I find it hard to believe that a true sociopath could rise to power and wealth without showing his/her true colors. It would be our responsibility individually to not trade with bad people, and to warn others. (I think a society-wide public feedback system could be of benefit. Sort of like eBay's feedback on transactions, but covering more of life's interactions.) If freedom didn't succeed, and we wound up back where we started, at least we tried, and hopefully we learned something that can guide our actions in the future to better preserve freedom.
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            • Posted by 10 years, 7 months ago
              Wrong question. Ask this one instead:

              How would any man, woman or would-be gang go about amassing the fortune required and gaining enough of a strategic advantage to hijack anything in a society without central banks, fractional lending, limited liability, crony-capitalism, eminent domain, taxation, inflation, limits on gun ownership or all the hundreds of other coerced mechanisms of the state?

              It is a fascinating question which I have been pondering for decades and for which I have never been able to come up with an answer that stood up to scrutiny and so far neither has anybody I asked.
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              • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 7 months ago
                Philip of Macedonia seemed to be able to do so. As did Attila the Hun, Cleopatra, Khufu, etc., etc., ad nauseum. It is not the tools or the systems, it is the nature of mankind - nee of all living things.
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                • Posted by 10 years, 7 months ago
                  Sorry, but these "examples" in no way answer the question I asked. Every one of them operated in an already established coercive nation state. They are also ancient history.

                  Let me put it to you this way:

                  Why on earth would I, having succeeded brilliantly at amassing a substantial fortune and gaining social prominence by voluntary cooperation, creativity and plain hard work, want to risk all that on hiring, feeding and equipping enough thugs to become a much reviled war lord?
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                  • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 7 months ago
                    With all due respect, it seems that you are the one ducking the questions. I've posed many, and presented counter arguments.

                    I'll answer your question - the same reason that most that gain power and prestige use coercive force, to maintain it.
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                    • Posted by 10 years, 7 months ago
                      That makes no sense whatsoever. Why would I risk all the wealth and prestige I have earned by non-aggressive means to become a hated thug?
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                      • Posted by khalling 10 years, 7 months ago
                        because people disagree, and the more wealth you have the more vulnerable you become. In building that wealth, you had to rely on all sorts of protections legally. The more success, the more the risk. You do not build wealth in a vacuum, and those risks include disagreements, divorced spouses, loss of inventory, customer dissatisfaction,employment grievances, etc. These all have to be planned for. Why do you insist on ignoring these very real issues among good men?
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                        • Posted by 10 years, 7 months ago
                          < In building that wealth, you had to rely on all sorts of protections legally >

                          Here we go again, applying statist conditions to a non state situation and making unfounded assumptions about how wealth is built. I have built and lost considerable wealth several times. In every instance, I built those businesses in spite of numerous legal and regulatory hurdles and lost them because of political and legal shenanigans placed in my way.
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                          • Posted by khalling 10 years, 7 months ago
                            I'm very sorry to hear that. and I do not disagree govt is the largest impediment and risk. However, our business is to protect your fortune, so we necessarily assess risk public and private every day. We protect inventors so they can make a profession out of inventing. Those are important property rights the anarchist would like to see go away
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  • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 7 months ago in reply to this comment.
    True, but the system I described would have the added incentive of removing the ability to using a private police if you essentially "opt out" by not agreeing. That penalty would appear to be more onerous than just complying. But then no system is foolproof.
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  • Posted by Kittyhawk 10 years, 7 months ago
    I believe that most of the people commenting here -- and most Objectivists and Anarchists/Voluntaryists in general -- agree on the ideal political structure of society and our core goal, rather than disagree. In fact, someone reminded me in the comments on another post that Ayn Rand advocated that the funding of government be voluntary, not coerced via taxes and penalties for non-payment.

    I believe both Objectivists and Anarchists want the exact same thing: a voluntary system of order. Anarchy is not per se against hierarchy or leaders, but only against coerced relationships. If you take away the element of force and make funding voluntary (as the founder of Objectivism advocated, and as Anarchists advocate), I don't particularly care if you call it "anarchy" or "government" or "a duck," I'm going to be pleased, and I think those Objectivists and Anarchists who aren't caught up in semantics will be also.

    Please don't forget how America started. That American Revolution was not masterminded by a government threatening force to fund and fight the battles. That was a voluntary association of people who valued freedom. It would be nice to have that again someday.
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    • Posted by khalling 10 years, 7 months ago
      yes, but rights were protected. If property rights are not fiercely protected, a society does not value them. A few bad apples will lead to more bad apples including those contracted to protect you. so-called "making it private" does not mean you are problem-less. People break contracts all the time. Who enforces them? What is the remedy?
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      • Posted by Kittyhawk 10 years, 7 months ago
        Anarchy does not claim that all problems will magically go away. There will still be bad apples, of course, just as there are in the current, force-based system we have now. The proposals I've seen amount to having basically the same types of solutions we have now -- at least to start -- but the providers of laws or rules, and of their enforcement, would be competing, and their services would be voluntarily funded. Here are some videos that explain it: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL1...

        As I said, Ayn Rand wrote that government should be voluntarily funded, not supported with coercive taxes. If we get that, we will have the same problems, benefits and opportunities that the Anarchist approach would produce. What if a bunch of us withdrew our support for the current government, and began paying for private arbitration and protection services because they were faster, more effective, less corrupt, and cheaper? The result would be accountability, competition, new ideas, and the ability for others to imitate a system that is functioning well. If the worst happened, and we wound up with an arbitration or protection company that was becoming abusive or coercive (like the one we have now), we would withdraw our support and try with someone else.

        We all acknowledge and love the effects of the free market in other areas -- why not let it work its magic on the legal and defense systems? I think it's what Ayn Rand wanted, too.
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      • -1
        Posted by 10 years, 7 months ago
        This, as so many posts here is neither a description of empirical facts, nor a logically derived conclusion. It is just an opinion, a belief voiced without supporting evidence. It is entirely yours and one to which you are undoubtedly entitled. But, being an opinion it is not subject to debate nor can it be refuted by logic or reason.
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        • Posted by Kittyhawk 10 years, 7 months ago
          I actually understand these concerns, and think they can be addressed. If we own ourselves, we also own what we create with our time and effort, and what we receive in voluntary trade. We own what we homestead, in terms of physical land and natural resources, if nobody already owns it, because of the investment of our time and effort.

          There will be bad people who initiate aggression not only with physical force, but by trying to steal our property. When I started to learn about anarchy, my big concern was also the same: Who will protect us from the "bad guys"?

          One thing I realized along the way is that government doesn't do a very good job of protecting us. They sometimes catch, and sometimes punish, people who've harmed others after the fact, but the law actually says it's not their job to protect us. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZKVSNjlS... Can anyone say our system is ideal? Can anyone propose a solution that is likely to fix or improve it that hasn't been tried before?

          I've addressed the other reasons to support a voluntary, non-coercive system in other comments here. In brief, I think it's more moral than the current system, since it doesn't initiate force against innocent people. (Taxation means demanding someone's property under threat of force, when they have done nothing to harm another.) And I believe it would be more effective, since monopolies aren't known for producing quality, while free markets are.

          For those who argue that we need a uniform system of laws, why should we stop at just our country? Shouldn't we have world law, like the U.N.? Why should we have state courts? Shouldn't the same laws apply everywhere? I suspect that most Gulch members wouldn't want standardized national law, or international law. There are benefits of having competing systems, and I think we need more of them.
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  • Posted by $ TomB666 10 years, 7 months ago
    Wow! The logical fallacies in the writing in this thread surprise me. Appealing to Ayn Rand to settle your argument is just a variation of the appeal to authority. As I have heard said, "If Rand said it, it is so" or any variation thereof is a totally bogus way to try to settle the argument. That is what bible thumpers do - appeal to gods word as if that settled anything.

    If you have a point to make it, make it and let it stand on its own merits. Telling me that Rand agrees tells me you are fearful that your argument lacks substance and so you say she agrees with you. Easy to say when she has been dead for many years.
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    • Posted by ewv 10 years, 7 months ago
      No one has said that if Ayn Rand said something then it is so as any kind of argument for anything. Going on from that falsehood to the rationalistic extravaganza about bible thumping and the rest of it is a crude strawman. That smear against those who defend Ayn Rand's ideas against anarchism and the simplistic sophistry and floating abstractions of "anarcho capitalism" is no defense of anarchism. Those who don't fully understand the matter are unlikely to do much better from reading this page at all. Suffice it to say that promoting anarchism has nothing to do with Atlas Shrugged or the movie, and anyone can read Ayn Rand's actual views on the nature of government in her own work.
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      • Posted by $ TomB666 10 years, 7 months ago
        I do not mean to be unfriendly, but years back when Leonard Peikoff was feuding with David Kelly about taking Objectivism into new areas, Leonard said something to the effect of - Ayn Rand said everything there was to say about Objrectivism and there is no new ground to cover - I apologize for not having his exact words at hand for a quote.

        Also I signed up for one of the tape courses and when I commented on a painting in the office, the organizer of the course said that Rand like this artist and so the painting was good.

        That is the kind of misuse of Rand's name I am referring to and is what I am seeing in some of the comments. I am not in any way defending anarchism and I apologize if that is what you thought I meant.

        I simply want to see people make their own logical arguments.
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        • Posted by ewv 10 years, 7 months ago
          You are accusing people on this thread as using arguments that no one has made, l but I wasn't attributing promotion of anarchism to you.

          We have no idea of what anyone told you years or decades ago about a painting, but it has nothing to do with the topic here or what anyone else has said about it.

          Leonard Peikoff has not said that there is no new ground to cover and has attempted to do so himself (with mixed results). He does defend the position that Ayn Rand used the term "Objectivism" to refer to her philosophy as she formulated it, and that others claiming to 'extend' it, correctly or not, are not included in that. He insists that even his own subsequent work is not included, although he calls it "applications of Objectivism" and sometimes consciously 'suggests' that Ayn Rand would agree with him, which in significant areas I strongly doubt. She isn't here to say one way or the other.
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        • Posted by 10 years, 7 months ago
          I couldn't agree more! Early in my life, I was shown the benefits of never taking anything on authority, to question everything and come to my own conclusions by applying logical reasoning to the available facts. I am not here to attack or defend any viewpoint or person. When presented with a proposition I simply seek to follow it to it's logical conclusion. Now in my late 60's I first read (no, devoured) pretty well all of Ayn Rand's writing (fiction &amp; non fiction) some 50 years ago and have been on a path of logical inquiry ever since. While this long journey has lead me to conclude (for now) that non aggression is the only morally sound principle, I am always ready to examine any proposition which is new to me (unlikely after 5 decades, but?) and revise my conclusion if reason leads me there.
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      • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 7 months ago
        Some do come off as if whatever AR said is some sort of gospel. Using such broad brushes generally doesn't work well in arguments here. Cite specifics, or answer specifics is best.
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        • Posted by ewv 10 years, 7 months ago
          "If Rand said it, it is so" characterizing supposed "logical fallacies in the writing in this thread". False. Further smearing as "gospel" doesn't change that.
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  • Posted by Kittyhawk 10 years, 7 months ago
    Awesome! Thank you for the post and explanation about the course. I actually took a look at the site yesterday because someone mentioned it in a comment on another post (perhaps you?), but I'm a lifelong Objectivist who has recently seen the wisdom of anarchy, and I was hesitant because I suspected the course merely advocated the same old arguments for minarchy. So thanks for getting me to take another look.
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  • Posted by 10 years, 7 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Except for the annoying fact that private mediation (aka: arbitration) does not work that way. In the real world all parties agree IN ADVANCE to be bound by the arbitrator's decision(s).
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    • Posted by khalling 10 years, 7 months ago
      societies have governance not for the 85% of the time they peacefully trade and live next to one another, but for the 15% of the time when things break down for whatever reason. The only way to deal with that 15% of the time is to have a firm philosophical foundation that sets up a system (capitalism) and logical tenets (laws) that allow judicial remedy to be applied. Whether it is private or not, it is still based on laws. That's governance. Private individuals can be corrupted too, however, I think most functions of government can be carried out privately. I draw the line at national/international defense. and I am not in favor of a bunch of legislators legislating. IT's not necessary.
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    • Posted by khalling 10 years, 7 months ago
      They do agree in advance. What's annoying is that when a party loses, they may or may not adhere to that agreement. Alimony and child support payments come to mind, royalty payments, sheltering of assets, etc
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  • Posted by Maphesdus 10 years, 7 months ago
    This isn't one of those sites that uses freedom as a Trojan horse for advocating anarchy, is it? Cuz' that's kinda the impression I got from the entrance exam...
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    • Posted by 10 years, 7 months ago
      Define anarchy please?
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      • Posted by ewv 10 years, 7 months ago
        Maphesdus is an eclectic, self proclaimed so-called "left libertarian" who falsely accuses Ayn Rand as "anarchist" for opposing collectivist statism such leftists deem to be "essential" to their notion of government.

        As for the website, it is in fact a 'free market anarchist' site, partly using Ayn Rand's ideas and partly contradicting them, as you can see throughout. This is not a matter of subjective "kinda impressions" employed by the mentally sloppy. One sample explicitly showing the anarchism: "'couldn't we just limit government, instead of doing away with it altogether?' The answer is NO." [emphasis in original]

        "Left libertarian" and "free market anarchism" is a false alternative.
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        • Posted by Maphesdus 10 years, 7 months ago
          I don't accuse Ayn Rand of being an anarchist for opposing collectivist statism, I simply point out that her philosophy inevitably leads to anarchy because it is built on the non-aggression principle, which is inherently anarchistic.
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          • Posted by ewv 10 years, 7 months ago
            Ayn Rand's philosophy is not based on "the non-aggression principle" and does not lead to anarchy. That is so outrageous as to be stupid. Maphesdus has no understanding of Ayn Rand's philosophy and repeatedly misrepresents it with reckless slogans in troll posts.

            Maphesdus is a 27 year old college sophomore gadfly in "digital media" and an avowed "left libertarian", i.e., a leftist ,who claims to have been "through a period of about six months where I got really into Ayn Rand's philosophy" before rejecting it as supposedly opposing the "principles of the Declaration of Independence".

            Nobody can "get really into" her philosophy in all of "six months" let alone honestly conclude something so dumb with even the most casual understanding of her political philosophy.

            This is so stupid as to raise the question of intellectual dishonesty as well as severe disability, and with repeated obvious misrepresentation repeatedly refuted leaves no room for further patience with this troll who constantly trashes Ayn Rand under the guise of wanting to "debate" it with nowhere else to do it.

            Maphesdus is a collectivist who demands government policy based on race in a statist, racist notion of government. Rejection of such statism does not make Ayn Rand an "anarchist" denying "essential functions of government".


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            • Posted by Maphesdus 10 years, 7 months ago
              Well now, that's a bit insulting, don't you think? I generally try to avoid insulting other posters here as much as possible, and debate only by attacking ideas and arguments. Very rarely do I ever verbally attack the person making the arguments. I would suggest that you learn to do the same if you want to be taken seriously.

              Anyway, since you did provide one legitimate argument before unleashing your angry deluge of insults, I will address that. You claim that Ayn Rand's philosophy is not based on the Non-Aggression Principle (NAP), yet even a cursory reading of her work demonstrates that that isn't true. The NAP was a very large part of her philosophy, so much so that she even proclaimed that it was the basic political principle of her ethics.

              –––––––––––––––––––
              "The basic political principle of the Objectivist ethics is: no man may initiate the use of physical force against others. No man—or group or society or government—has the right to assume the role of a criminal and initiate the use of physical compulsion against any man. Men have the right to use physical force only in retaliation and only against those who initiate its use. The ethical principle involved is simple and clear-cut: it is the difference between murder and self-defense. A holdup man seeks to gain a value, wealth, by killing his victim; the victim does not grow richer by killing a holdup man. The principle is: no man may obtain any values from others by resorting to physical force."

              ~ Ayn Rand, “The Objectivist Ethics,” The Virtue of Selfishness, page 36
              http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/retali...
              –––––––––––––––––––

              Tell me, in light of this particular passage, how do you support your claim that Objectivism is not based on the NAP?
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              • Posted by ewv 10 years, 7 months ago
                Philosophy is not politics. Ayn Rand did not base her philosophy on a 'non-aggression principle', and never said any such thing in that quote or anywhere else. Nor did she treat a political principle as a floating abstraction regarded as an "axiom" from which a political philosophy is somehow deduced through rationalizing and manipulation of words without regard to meaning and context. Contrary to Malphesdus, who understands none of this and repeatedly misrepresents Ayn Rand in repeated attacks on her ideas actions, knowledge and ability, she was not an anarchist and her philosophy does not imply anarchism.
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                • -1
                  Posted by Maphesdus 10 years, 7 months ago
                  Um... do you even know what the non-aggression principle is? Based on your statements, I'm beginning to doubt that you're actually familiar with the term...
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                  • -1
                    Posted by ewv 10 years, 7 months ago
                    Maphesdus is the last person here to be telling anyone that it is we who don't understand, with or without the snide, sophomoric "Um". The entire discussion is over Maphesdus' head, as is Ayn Rand's philosophy that Maphesdus repeatedly misrepresents while trashing it.
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                    • Posted by Maphesdus 10 years, 7 months ago
                      Are you going to actually engage in debate here, or just resort to immature insults and personal attacks? If you think I'm wrong about a particular point, then explain to me why you think I'm wrong, and let's discuss the issue like adults.
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                      • Posted by ewv 10 years, 7 months ago
                        You haven't said anything to debate. Your stupid assertion insinuating that I don't know what the non-aggression idea is is false and without any basis. It is not an answer to the refutation of your equally stupid assertion misrepresenting Ayn Rand as basing her philosophy on non-aggression. You are no mature adult. Stop pretending and stop misrepresenting people.
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              • Posted by ewv 10 years, 7 months ago
                Maphesdus: "I generally try to avoid insulting other posters"

                Maphesdus repeatedly insults, smears, and misrepresents Ayn Rand and others, ignoring and evading explanation with 'responses' consisting of more vituperative insults and misrepresentation.
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        • Posted by 10 years, 7 months ago
          Therein lies the grand contradiction in Rand's work. How can you be against "collectivist statism" and remain in favor of "government"?
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          • Posted by khalling 10 years, 7 months ago
            false alternative. collectivist statism is not the system of capitalism
            Anarchy ALWAYS ends in totalitarianism. Why would you promote that?
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            • Posted by 10 years, 7 months ago
              Your evidence is?
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              • Posted by khalling 10 years, 7 months ago
                Germany after WWI, the fall of Rome, Russia in 1917, China WWII...
                note the date on this article posted on moonbattery.com:

                "August 24, 2007

                Venezuela Under Chavez: Totalitarianism Meets Anarchy

                An irony of moonbattery is the close relationship between totalitarianism (ubiqitous government) and anarchy (absence of government), polar opposites that bleed into each other. For example, the sort of unwashed hooligans who stage riots at WTO meetings often refer to themselves as anarchists — yet to the extent they have any coherent ideology, it most closely resembles Stalinism. Another example is the authoritarian regime of Hugo Chavez. The more he tightens his grip on power, the more Venezuela dissolves into anarchy.

                The streets of Venezuela are out of control — and according to the Financial Times, the economy may soon be as well:

                President Hugo Chávez's tightening grip over Venezuela's economy is generating distortions that economists fear could, paradoxically, eventually lead to a loss of control.
                Price controls, currency controls and negative real interest rates are just some of the elements that have contributed to one of the highest rates of inflation in the world and a substantially overvalued exchange rate.
                The economy is ever more dependent on the high price of oil. If that falls, so will Venezuela — into economic chaos.

                If things get bad enough, they could always try freedom. It works for America,"
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                • Posted by 10 years, 7 months ago
                  Not one of these is an example of Anarchy gone awry. They are all, every single one, examples of the chaos that ensues when a failed state collapses on its own corruption.
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                  • Posted by Solver 10 years, 7 months ago
                    It's like the cold turkey pain an addict suffers when a highly addictive drug is suddenly taken away. Why blame the drug when pushers can show the pain a person suffers and blame the lack of the drug.
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                    • Posted by khalling 10 years, 7 months ago
                      There are always people who would use force-and that small group can do alot of damage while everyone
                      else is standing around allowing it. There must be remedy.
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                      • Posted by 10 years, 7 months ago
                        Why would everyone else stand around and allow it? I know I wouldn't and neither would most of my friends.

                        In the current system there is a perfect avenue for bullies and sociopaths to get away with it - sign up for a government job. They got them for every taste. Small time bully? Become a clerk at your local DMV. Serious sociopath? Sign up as an IRS agent or with one of the thousands of (militarized) police agencies. Have psychopathic tendencies but queasy around blood? Become a politician. Want to get into some serious killing? Join the military. They maintain a few really cool shooting galleries far enough from home so that your family and neighbors won't have to watch what you're up to. Over the top, power hungry psychopath? Interested in killing in the thousands by proxy? Take a shot at running for US president.
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                        • Posted by khalling 10 years, 7 months ago
                          "Why would everyone else stand around and allow it? I know I wouldn't and neither would most of my friends."
                          well, then, you'll always have to have the biggest club and we're back at fiefdoms. and all that protecting will keep you from getting anything done and being productive. what mechanism do you have for disputes? and again remedy?
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                          • Posted by 10 years, 7 months ago
                            I don’t doubt your good faith, which is why I make the effort to reply. My short answer would be “complete the tolfa.us curriculum and refute LOGICALLY what it contains, but only after completing the whole course.” That may consume more of your time than you can afford right now. Believe me it took me decades to get to where I find myself now.

                            You see, the problem is that you continue to apply conditions which exist under a government monopoly on violence to create a scenario which supports your current convictions. First of all, the vast majority of humanity is decent and just. Sociopaths are outliers and as such make up only a tiny minority of society.

                            The remedy against these outliers is that In a truly anarchic society, the vast majority of people will own defensive weapons or other devices, know how to use them and be free to do so. Contracting with private security and crime prevention services is another option which has recently been demonstrated to be highly effective in the police vacuum created by the bankruptcy of Detroit. Having lived and worked in several countries which can easily be described as lawless in comparison with the USA or Canada I have seen this free market security mechanism at work with great effect.

                            This is in complete contrast to the present state of affairs where the vast majority of “good” people are disarmed by “government” and left effectively helpless against predators who simply ignore the laws and acquire/use whatever weapons they desire to.

                            You ask about dispute settlement mechanisms. They already exist in abundance today. Free market arbitration services and insurance policies (such full coverage auto) are proliferating everywhere, especially as government courts become more corrupt every day.
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                            • Posted by khalling 10 years, 7 months ago
                              to remedy: just making functions private does not get rid of these problems. We need laws which are based on logic and reason. There is no short-cut for that and ultimately it will not matter whether your enforcement is supposedly private or public because they have the force, they will be subjected to the same corruption issues. what about IP?
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                            • Posted by khalling 10 years, 7 months ago
                              you don't doubt my good faith , which is why you make the effort? are you implying something of an ad hominem nature here? they tell you on your own freedom academy website -the page on "mentors" not to do that.... You're the new guy on the block writing posts on a website for people interested in AS and Objectivism. It seems like your good faith is more in question until we get to know you better ;)
                              "contracting with private security" how is that contract enforced? Yes, I'm sure they work for small groups-the reason they are there, is because the govt has already broken down and you have a situation that is chaotic. That's my point- so a few are able to be protected by these private firms-the rest are still living in chaos being unproductive because they are spending time protecting themselves and their property and children aren't able to learn. Biff in Back to the Future Three was able to be protected, but the town was not this nice everyone getting along well, etc. lol
                              I agree that most are not sociopathic-100%. But in a chaotic or corrupt situation most will use force because it is being used against them. I agree to the conflict of small government. You still have not answered my question about remedy and enforcement of contracts. Ultimately I will challenge you on intellectual property and environmental issues. but I will state again-reasonable people disagree-how do you handle disputes? Your private police force disagrees with my private police force. now we have a mini war-we're back to a feudal existence. Invention will diminish. Building assets will go mostly towards protection. there have to be some rules.
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                              • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 7 months ago
                                Actually, in the instance of private police forces being in disagreement, there is a very good (and I would expect very effective) solution - mediation services. Each private police force would employ a mediation service. That mediation service would be responsible for developing a binding solution to the dispute. Should the individual services fail to reach an agreeable solution in a specified time, then a third arbitrator that is agreed to by both mediation services is used to break the tie.

                                The benefit of such is that the mediation services are not emotionally or financially involved in the dispute. They have an incentive to resolve the dispute as quickly and satisfactorily as possible. The private police forces also have an incentive to conclude this as they don't want to incur violence with their employees, and want to keep their clients.

                                Both the private police and mediation services would have the ability to sue their former client should they reneg on an agreed settlement to a dispute, which helps to keep the client from merely making an agreement that they have no intention of keeping and jumping to another private police agency.

                                As for payments of damages, there would be a monthly retainer that also paid some portion of an insurance policy. Should a client renege, they would lose their rights to that indemnity and it would be paid out to the stipulations of the agreement - and that person/entity that reneged would be barred from further private police protection until the debt was extinguished.

                                What about the homeless/destitute? Don't they get protection? These are some issues that need to be addressed, but I'm confident that free-market solutions are feasible.
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                              • Posted by 10 years, 7 months ago
                                P.S.: I may be the "new guy" on your block, but I've been thinking about and debating this for over 50 years. Quite possibly since long before you were a twinkle in you daddy's eyes?
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                                • Posted by ewv 10 years, 7 months ago
                                  Repeating the same superficiality and fallacies for over 50 years is no great achievement and no excuse to try to exploit this web site to try to resurrect and promote it.
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                              • Posted by 10 years, 7 months ago
                                It was actually meant to be somewhat of a compliment, but that obviously misfired. :)

                                As far as Detroit is concerned, your comments give the impression that you may not have been following the evolution there too closely. I have; for over three years. It's actually quite fascinating regardless of one's philosophical stance. Do you have any idea which crime prevention firm I might be referring to?
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                                • Posted by khalling 10 years, 7 months ago
                                  no. I was aware of private security firms hired for downtown Detroit. I live outside the country now. I am for privatizing as much as possible any govt function. You still have not answered my questions...
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                                  • helidrvr replied 10 years, 7 months ago
                                  • helidrvr replied 10 years, 7 months ago
                          • Posted by Kittyhawk 10 years, 7 months ago
                            The mechanisms for courts, law-making, and protection would be very much the same, with the important exception that they would be voluntary. Competition would lead to improvement, lower costs, and better accountability.

                            Did you know that there was a perfectly good, market-created voluntary system for resolving disputes prior to the government court system in England? It worked so well that the King decided he wanted a cut of the compensation, and then established the courts -- nominally for the people's good, but in reality so he could be a parasite of the already functioning system. I read an article about this, but can't find it to link to at the moment.
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                  • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 7 months ago
                    So, let's assume you have this anarchic state. Everything is peaches and cream for a couple of years. Then, one of your neighbors decides that he isn't satisfied and wants to tell the rest of his neighbors how to live, what they can do, what they cannot do, etc. Oh, btw, he also was the most successful of the community and as such has amassed the means to procure the weapons of force that will allow him to enforce his desires. He goes about doing so. What are you to do?

                    And once you agree that you band together with your neighbors to resist, you've just created a "government" whether you want to acknowledge it or not.
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                    • Posted by 10 years, 7 months ago
                      And that is where you go off the rails unless you are joking. Voluntary cooperation to achieve a shared objective does not constitute a government. Even today's world of ever more intrusive nanny governments, most of society is based the (mostly) voluntary division of labor. The ebb and flow of such arrangements is constantly and naturally changing, from "If I cook, will you do the dishes" to the complex dynamics involved in something as "simple" as the manufacture of a pencil where most of the participants (such as the lumber jack and the graphite miner) are not even aware of each others existence.

                      Surely, not even in YOUR wildest imagination, do these voluntary associations constitute "government"?

                      Wikipedia: A government is the system by which a state or community is governed. Government is the means by which state policy is enforced, as well as the mechanism for determining the policy of the state. A form of government, or form of state governance, refers to the set of political systems and institutions that make up the organization of a specific government.
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                      • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 7 months ago
                        Ah, but that is where you go off the rails. You correctly state that there are many activities that are accomplished by voluntary cooperation. If you have a group that bands together (even voluntarily) to use force against another, then it is a government. It may be a loosely run, minimally organized government, but it is a government, nonetheless. You are exerting your will over that of a neighbor. An individual can do so one on one, but once you band together, it is a government - decisions will be made, resources will be procured, etc.

                        Once you allow that force can be used in certain circumstances and not in others, then you must have an arbiter - and that constitutes government.

                        From Merriam-Webster: the act or process of governing; specifically : authoritative direction or control
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                        • Posted by 10 years, 7 months ago
                          So am I to understand that by your interpretation the volunteers who drove off the BLM aggression in the Bundy Ranch stand-off constituted the creation of a government? surely you jest?
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                          • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 7 months ago
                            If somebody was giving direction or exerting decision making authority or control and others recognized that entity as having that authority, then yes it was. You seem to want to ascribe government as some elected body. Government is not necessarily such a thing. A monarchy is a government, as is a tyrant and the Greek Senate. They are all various forms of government, but they share the characteristics that they exerted authority over the group as a whole. Once somebody starts giving directions to others, it is a government.
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                        • Posted by 10 years, 7 months ago
                          Using force to govern is the INITIATION of violence . Repelling or protecting oneself from such aggression is just self-defense and therefore in no imaginable way constitutes government or control.
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                          • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 7 months ago
                            It is if you band together and take direction. It can be from one individual, a sub-set, or by total group consensus.

                            Governing is decision-making and exerting control/authority over others. It can be formal or very informal. And thus, your vision of anarchy doesn't hold.
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          • Posted by ewv 10 years, 7 months ago
            There is no such contradiction in Ayn Rand's work. A limited government protecting the rights of the individual, which includes protection from anarchists, is not 'collectivist statism'. That is not what either statism or collectivism mean.
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            • Posted by 10 years, 7 months ago
              Protection from anarchists? Now you've got me stumped with that one. Anarchism's entire foundation is in the non-aggression principle. What's to protect from?

              Maybe not collectivist, but statism most certainly. "Limited government" is an oxymoron. How is that limited government in Mordor-on-the-Potomac working out for you?
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              • Posted by khalling 10 years, 7 months ago
                the non-aggression principle is an attempted short-cut philosophically. Like all short cuts, one is ignoring important concepts. For instance, you cannot even have this discussion without a firm definition of property rights. If someone picks an apple from what I consider to be my orchard and I try to stop them, but they are nomadic/hunter gatherer, who would be the aggressor? The nomad would clearly think the orchard owner was the aggressor. Ownership of oneself inherently leads to ownership of one's creations. In NAP, You can have two rational individuals argue over a property line, what is the remedy and who initiates the force? You can't say no one because there is a disagreement. There are likely costs.
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              • Posted by ewv 10 years, 7 months ago
                Anarchism means no government not "non-aggression". So-called "free market anarchists" or "anarcho capitalists", a few of which have been floating around for decades and which is what this "freedom academy" website promotes. They claim to want to protect our rights by throwing the use of force onto an open "market", which is preposterous and does not make "non-agression" "fundamental".

                Ayn Rand emphatically denounced it, regardless of its form or excuse. It is not what Atlas Shrugged was about, let alone promoted, and has nothing to do with the AS movie. Limited government is not an "oxymoron" other than in the floating abstractions and imagination of anarchists.
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                • Posted by 10 years, 7 months ago
                  How is giving a monopoly on the use of violence to the sociopaths who operate under color of government working for you and the rest of us around the world? Remember, there is no such living entity as "the government". That is just a legal fiction to give a fig leaf to politicians.
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                  • Posted by khalling 10 years, 7 months ago
                    Capitalism is based on property rights. What is your alternative to capitalism?
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                    • Posted by Kittyhawk 10 years, 7 months ago
                      Anarchy simply means "no rulers." Another word for the modern movement is "Voluntaryism," meaning that all acts should be voluntary and not the result of coercion by force or fraud. Most of the anarchist videos and articles I've seen are 100% in favor of the free market; for emphasis, this is often called "anarcho-capitalism." Even the anarcho-communists seem to concede that with the non-aggression principle, participation would be voluntary, so I think we're right back to free-market capitalism, and people can voluntarily join a commune if they want.
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                      • Posted by ewv 10 years, 7 months ago
                        Anarchism means no government. There is no free market under anarchy. A market does not mean competing by use of force.
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                        • Posted by Kittyhawk 10 years, 7 months ago
                          Please look up the derivation of the word anarchy, which comes from the Greek, and does in fact literally mean "no rulers." Again, the synonym for the modern movement is Voluntaryism, which makes the intent even more clear: every action and trade should be voluntary, which rules out the morality of initiating force.

                          It's a bit contradictory to insist we need force-based government laws, regulations and biased enforcement of them in order to have a "free" market, imho. Government subsidizes some businesses, sues or fines others, and otherwise interferes with the free market in thousands of ways. It's a system that benefits the politicians and their cronies (a.k.a. the rulers), but not the average citizen without pull.

                          In a truly free market, a spontaneous or natural order will arise, without the need for government to impose the rules by force. These are the ideas of F.A. Hayek and Frederic Bastiat. Please see section 2 here for a historical example of this spontaneous order arising: http://library.mises.org/books/Roderick%...

                          It seems to me that Atlas Shrugged and The Fountainhead also demonstrate clearly that government regulation does absolutely nothing to help the free market, and many things to hurt it. Anarchy doesn't mean "no rules" -- instead it means "no rulers" who inevitably impose unfair rules that benefit them alone.
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                          • Posted by 10 years, 7 months ago
                            Kittyhawk, you are an absolute gem!
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                            • Posted by ewv 10 years, 7 months ago
                              In English anarchy means no government. It is not "contradictory" to have laws protecting people's rights so they can trade in a market rather than "competing governments" in a constant state of war buying and selling force. The claim that a spontaneous natural order will arise and maintain itself with no criminal activity is worse than wishful thinking. Neither Hayek nor Bastiat advocated anarchy. Hayek in particular was a welfare statist. Regulations controlling markets and granting favors is not protection against force and fraud. Trying to invoke Atlas Shrugged and the Fountainhead to promote anarchy in that way is an equivocation and Ayn Rand did not illustrate anarchy in her novels.

                              None of these goofy floating abstractions trying to rationalize anarchy as supposedly endorsed by Ayn Rand are new since at least a half century ago. It is all gibberish and devoid of any remnant of common sense, and has long been rejected for good reason. A handful of people trying to resurrect it now is only spreading more misinformation about Ayn Rand and isn't doing anyone any good. It would be silly if it weren't so destructive.
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                  • Posted by ewv 10 years, 7 months ago
                    Government is not fiction, legal or otherwise. No one here advocates giving a monopoly on force to sociopaths. Statism and its anarchist twin are a false alternative.
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              • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 7 months ago
                There's the rub - you want to deny the nature of humanity. Your ideology only works for a community that is not human (and looking around at nature, I'm not sure what species it would work for - every species exerts force over others in one form or another). To base a system or moral code on such fallacious foundations is foolish.
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                • Posted by Rozar 10 years, 7 months ago
                  Do you believe the majority of humans use force for the sake of force? That they simply enjoy it regardless of the consequences? Or do you think humans use force because it is the easiest way to get what they want in certain circumstances? If it was easier to get what they wanted by using reason and negotiation, would they still prefer force? It seems to me the best way to reduce the violent tendencies of humanity is to provide them with opportunities, I think the NAP is the best moral system to providing those opportunities.

                  It's not the end all answer to peace on earth, although I would hope the further it spreads the closer we could get to that ideal, but it is the best place to start. Any approach that requires the initiation of force is doomed to collapse, as eventually the slaves will rebel.
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                  • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 7 months ago
                    I think that people use whatever gets them what they are willing to accept. For many, that may be reason, and if what they are looking to achieve is not attained, they accept that. For others, what they want is to rule over their fellow man. Some have been able to achieve this via reason, and their fellow man has entered serfdom willingly (this is very rare, but it has occurred). And in fewer instances (but more abundant than can be discounted) humans exert physical force over their fellow man to bring them into subjugation.

                    But there is force being used against others all the time. Some here tell me that if I don't support Objectivism that I don't belong on the site. They are using a subtle form of force there - coercion and mild intimidation - it doesn't work because I'm not so easily intimidated. But, just because it doesn't work, doesn't mean that it wasn't tried. That seems to me to be the nature of living creatures, and man in particular. Heck, if you look at plants, they try to crown one another out to get the prime sunlight, the most rainfall, etc. That's why we kill weeds and fertilize grass. Grass is an inherently weaker plant, and if left to nature, would perish under the onslaught of more robust weeds. Force is seemingly ubiquitous.
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                  • Posted by Hiraghm 10 years, 7 months ago
                    Which is why both the use of force and slavery have always been rare, and scattered practices throughout history... /sarc

                    Perhaps you missed the ending of "Spartacus", or maybe modern history texts re-write the Confederate War as a slave rebellion, I dunno...
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              • -2
                Posted by Maphesdus 10 years, 7 months ago
                What's to protect from? People who don't agree with the non-aggression principle, of course. This is one of the fundamental flaws of the NAP: it only works if every single person agrees to follow it. Anyone who thinks the entire human race will ever reach a single unanimous consensus on any issue is fooling themselves.
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                • Posted by 10 years, 7 months ago
                  What is flawed here is your understanding of the NAP which you appear to confuse with some utopian idea of angelic non violence. The NAP does not preclude violence used in self-defense or defense of others.

                  Anyone who thinks the entire human race will ever reach a single unanimous consensus on any issue through the mechanism of "democracy", "government" or other violent statist means is truly fooling themselves.
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                  • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 7 months ago
                    How do you explain the behavior of even the youngest of children who will use force against their peers to get what they want? Or bullying in school? Or very educated people who will scheme and finagle to get ahead, at the expense of their peers? My observation of the human condition is that we will instinctively (seemingly) use force. It is part of human nature. Obviously not everyone and not in all things, but it is prolific enough so as to not be discounted.

                    If man inherently uses force (as all living creatures do) then to base a moral code and life philosophy on something that requires man to live counter to his nature is insanity and bound to fail.
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                    • Posted by Kittyhawk 10 years, 7 months ago
                      Human nature, or learned behavior? The vast majority of parents still hit their children to discipline them, teaching "might makes right," rather than reason and respect for others. It also teaches hypocrisy, "Do as I say, not as I do."

                      I'd love to see a study comparing the behavior of children who were hit, and children who weren't. That should show whether it's human nature, or learned.
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                      • Posted by 10 years, 7 months ago
                        Actually, my good fortune is that my parents NEVER used any physical violence or appeals to authority ("because I say so") and carefully selected schools where this was also the practice. This makes me somewhat of a one-man subject of the study you suggest. LOL.

                        In my education they applied two basic principles which can be summed up as (a) If you're smart enough to ask this question then you're smart enough to know the answer and (b) when in doubt about doing or saying something to or with others, ask if you would like them to do or say this to you. This process taught me (a) how to reason based on facts and logic and (b) self-discipline and the value of non-aggression.

                        Most importantly however, it endowed me with the self-confidence to tackle any situation with the conviction that I could figure it out without having to appeal to some higher (parental, state or religious) authority or resorting to aggression.
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                        • Posted by Hiraghm 10 years, 7 months ago
                          People are individual. The way my parents raised my two brothers had to be very different from the way they raised me, because we were very different.
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                      • Posted by Hiraghm 10 years, 7 months ago
                        No, they teach their children that actions have consequences.

                        ""My apologies. Your textbook does so state. But calling a tail a leg does not make the name fit ‘Juvenile delinquent’ is a contradiction in terms, one which gives a clue to their problem and their failure to solve it.
                        Have you ever raised a puppy?"
                        "Yes, sir."
                        "Did you housebreak him?"
                        "Err... yes, sir. Eventually." It was my slowness in this that caused my mother to rule that dogs must stay out of the house.
                        "Ah, yes. When your puppy made mistakes, were you angry?"
                        "What? Why, he didn’t know any better; he was just a puppy.
                        "What did you do?"
                        "Why, I scolded him and rubbed his nose in it and paddled him."
                        "Surely he could not understand your words?"
                        "No, but he could tell I was sore at him!"
                        "But you just said that you were not angry."
                        Mr. Dubois had an infuriating way of getting a person mixed up. "No, but I had to make him think I was.
                        He had to learn, didn’t he?"
                        "Conceded. But, having made it clear to him that you disapproved, how could you be so cruel as to spank him as well? You said the poor beastie didn’t know that he was doing wrong. Yet you inflicted pain. Justify yourself! Or are you a sadist?"
                        I didn’t then know what a sadist was — but I knew pups. "Mr. Dubois, you have to! You scold him so that he knows he’s in trouble, you rub his nose in it so that he will know what trouble you mean, you paddle him so that he darn well won’t do it again — and you have to do it right away! It doesn’t do a bit of good to punish him later; you’ll just confuse him. Even so, he won’t learn from one lesson, so you watch and catch him again and paddle him still harder. Pretty soon he learns. But it’s a waste of breath just to scold him." Then I added, "I guess you’ve never raised pups."

                        "Many. I’m raising a dachshund now — by your methods. Let’s get back to those juvenile criminals. The most vicious averaged somewhat younger than you here in this class... and they often started their lawless careers much younger. Let us never forget that puppy. These children were often caught; police arrested batches each day. Were they scolded? Yes, often scathingly. Were their noses rubbed in it?
                        Rarely. News organs and officials usually kept their names secret — in many places the law so required for criminals under eighteen. Were they spanked? Indeed not! Many had never been spanked even as small children; there was a widespread belief that spanking, or any punishment involving pain, did a child permanent psychic damage."
                        (I had reflected that my father must never have heard of that theory.)
                        "Corporal punishment in schools was forbidden by law," he had gone on. "Flogging was lawful as sentence of court only in one small province, Delaware, and there only for a few crimes and was rarely invoked; it was regarded as ‘cruel and unusual punishment.’ " Dubois had mused aloud, "I do not understand objections to ‘cruel and unusual’ punishment. While a judge should be benevolent in purpose, his awards should cause the criminal to suffer, else there is no punishment — and pain is the basic mechanism built into us by millions of years of evolution which safeguards us by warning when something threatens our survival. Why should society refuse to use such a highly perfected survival mechanism?
                        However, that period was loaded with pre-scientific pseudo-psychological nonsense.
                        "As for ‘unusual,’ punishment must be unusual or it serves no purpose." He then pointed his stump at another boy. "What would happen if a puppy were spanked every hour?"
                        "Uh... probably drive him crazy!"
                        "Probably. It certainly will not teach him anything. How long has it been since the principal of this school last had to switch a pupil?"
                        "Uh, I’m not sure. About two years. The kid that swiped — "
                        "Never mind. Long enough. It means that such punishment is so unusual as to be significant, to deter, to instruct. Back to these young criminals — They probably were not spanked as babies; they certainly were not flogged for their crimes. The usual sequence was: for a first offense, a warning — a scolding,
                        often without trial. After several offenses a sentence of confinement but with sentence suspended and the youngster placed on probation. A boy might be arrested many times and convicted several times before he was punished — and then it would be merely confinement, with others like him from whom he learned still more criminal habits. If he kept out of major trouble while confined, he could usually evade most of even that mild punishment, be given probation — ‘paroled’ in the jargon of the times.
                        "This incredible sequence could go on for years while his crimes increased in frequency and viciousness, with no punishment whatever save rare dull-but-comfortable confinements. Then suddenly, usually by law on his eighteenth birthday, this so-called ‘juvenile delinquent’ becomes an adult criminal — and sometimes wound up in only weeks or months in a death cell awaiting execution for murder.You — "
                        He had singled me out again. "Suppose you merely scolded your puppy, never punished him, let him go on making messes in the house... and occasionally locked him up in an outbuilding but soon let him back into the house with a warning not to do it again. Then one day you notice that he is now a grown dog and still not housebroken — whereupon you whip out a gun and shoot him dead. Comment, please?"
                        "Why... that’s the craziest way to raise a dog I ever heard of!"
                        "I agree. Or a child. Whose fault would it be?"
                        "Uh... why, mine, I guess."
                        "Again I agree. But I’m not guessing."

                        - Robert A. Heinlein, "Starship Troopers"

                        While I agree with Heinlein, he distorts the Constitutional meaning of "cruel and unusual" punishment. "Cruel" meant punishment performed for the sake of inflicting suffering, alone. "Unusual" meant singling an individual out for different punishment than the statute of a crime would call for generally.
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                      • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 7 months ago
                        Ah, the nature v nurture gambit - the problem is that nature drives nurture. You seem to think that corporal punishment is anti-nature. Force is used everywhere in nature. Bacteria attack healthy cells, plants crowd out other plants to gain favor of sunshine and water, animals kill others for food, and merely for practice (I have 2 cats who are fed quite well by their girth. They are always bringing me mice and vols that they have killed - not because they are hungry, but because it is their nature to hunt).

                        We humans are animals first. We use force instinctively. I spanked my children to emphasize a point, and now as young adults in their early 20's they are well behaved, polite, respectful people. The spankings that they received did not make them bullies or psychopaths out to hurt others. On the other hand, I've observed other parents that swore they'd never hit their children whose little brats seemed to learn that there was never a consequence to their actions and were bullies and have grown up to be reprobates.
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                        • Posted by 10 years, 7 months ago
                          At first I was not even dignify this with a direct reply. Having given myself some time to consider the options, I changed my mind.

                          Resorting to violent aggression is NEVER an acceptable mode of dispute "resolution", especially not of behavior modification in children. It is bullying and a clear sign of the bully's inability to convince by logic and reason.
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                          • Posted by Hiraghm 10 years, 7 months ago
                            Acceptable... to whom?

                            How do you convince a child by logic or reason when he has not yet learned to apply logic or to reason, himself? How do you convince a child by logic or reason when he is still ruled by emotion?
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                  • -2
                    Posted by Maphesdus 10 years, 7 months ago
                    I'm aware of that. I never said the NAP was the total absence of violence or force. What I'm saying is that sometimes a government must use force in initiation, not just in retaliation. A government which uses force only in retaliation would become incapable of preforming its essential functions, and therefore cease to be a government. Yet this is exactly what the NAP demands of government. Thus, the NAP leads to anarchy.
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                • Posted by Kittyhawk 10 years, 7 months ago
                  Does government prevent every person from violating the non-aggression principle? Clearly not. There is no claim that anarchy would, either. However, the key difference is that in anarchy, paying for creators and enforcers of the law would be voluntary, and the competition (as opposed to the government monopoly we have now) would allow innovation, accountability, and reduced cost.
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                  • Posted by Maphesdus 10 years, 7 months ago
                    A competition of governments? What do you mean, exactly?
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                    • Posted by Kittyhawk 10 years, 7 months ago
                      A government is a centralized authority with a monopoly on law-making and force (including enforcement), so I wouldn't call the result of getting rid of government "a competition of governments." It would be a competition of service providers, ideally with the services split out, so enforcement was separate from arbitration and rule-making. (Like the theory of our government's separation of powers, but making it a reality, with completely separate payments and separate management.)

                      The underlying philosophical rationale (from F. A. Hayek, Frederic Bastiat and the like) is that a spontaneous or natural order will arise from people's interactions, and that it does not need to be imposed from above by government. There is a historical example of this in section 2 here: http://library.mises.org/books/Roderick%...
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      • Posted by Maphesdus 10 years, 7 months ago
        Either the absence of government, or a set of principles which strip government of the ability to preform its essential functions.
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        • Posted by 10 years, 7 months ago
          Forgive me for asking questions which may seem trivial to you, but he devil is in the details, as the saying goes. :)

          My understanding of the word "government" is that in the broader sense it denotes a particular philosophical concept (or idea if you prefer), i.e. is not a living creature capable of independent thought and action.

          In the narrower sense I understand "government" to describe a legal fiction (once again not a living creature) used to give certain people monopoly power to make "laws", lay down other rules of conduct and the power to enforce them.

          Am I correct in this?
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