Cheap and Benign energy LFTR (Liquid Fluoride Thorium Reactor) technology
Kirk Sorenson is promoting LFTR (Liquid Fluoride Thorium Reactor) technology.
This is the Safest, Cleanest, most efficient nuclear power generation devised.
This is the Safest, Cleanest, most efficient nuclear power generation devised.
SOURCE URL: http://energyfromthorium.com
I would be delighted to be wrong on this.
I used to design large power plants. Hot salt is benign compared to hot water.
We have gotten used to thinking that we can't do anything anymore, it takes decades. Most of that time is in governmental red tape.
I'm not advocating a Manhattan style investment, but we damned well should be able to improve on technology that was working 50 years ago.
Jan
https://slowfacts.wordpress.com/tag/lftr...
Neat.
Jan
Are you set on producing your first prototype in the US? There are several counties in Eastern Europe who have 'single point' atomic energy regulatory committees and where you might get a more favorable reception (to energy independence from Russia, as a random example).
Jan
https://food52.com/shop/products/1837-an...
Shocking how much sound comes from these. Necessity is the mother of invention, and when 10 watts was a "monster" tube amp, horn loading efficiency was worked very hard.
juxtaposition of 1920s and 2020s tech!
I built a dynaco 35-watt-per-channel stereo amp
many years ago, and still have it. . smooooooth
sound and lots of heat! . we also still have an old
silvertone hi-fi. . it has a monster tube amp in it also. -- j
.
Hafler amps which have fairly good feedback circuits
for undesirable hi freq harmonics, but clipping is so
gross in any transistor amp (imho) that I use headroom
to stay away from it. . the best amp of all time, in
my collection, is the excelinear 600 which can be
pushed to more than 1000 watts per channel via
low impedance, with no clipping. . temp-controlled
fan. . what an amp. . David Hafler was a genius. -- j
.
p.s. I run a 400-watt Hafler amp in the living room
into everything -- delicious -- and we never turn
it off. . here's the 600::: https://search.yahoo.com/yhs/search;_ylt...
.
What could go wrong with that?
anywhere near it, and spin a turbine!!! -- j
.
Sounds good. I detest the resistance to all these things we could easily "do". If we were trying to produce the first lead-acid battery today, imagine how hard it would be...lead? sulfuric acid? Oh my god, but they are under the hood of every car, truck, tractor and all over.
Not sure about safest. PWRs are pretty safe and a whole lot more hours on them than this. Not to rain on the parade. Sounds like these have a nice negative reactivity coefficient too.
The reason why I have described them as being the safest is because the LFTR technology is at atmospheric pressure compared to the degree of pressurisation of other reactor designs which use EXPLOSIVE steam (the HAZARD if the water is NOT kept COOLED properly).
The big safety mechanism of LFTR is the molten salt is held in place with a refrigerated plug, which if it were to fail the molten salt would just drain into the reservoir where it is allowed to cool and resolidify.
Comparing the fuel production chain, refining and disposal, there is no threat of nuclear weapons materials going missing. The fuel efficiency is quoted in the high 90s(%) versus current nuclear ~0.1(%) but requires reprocessing. LFTR is said to be a great way to dispose of the stockpiles of nuclear waste by burning them down to a more useful element, and the power output associated with this.
fluoride compounds to turn a turbine. . I understand
this from the iroseland link above. -- j
nope. . I didn't read far enough. . here 'tis:::
======================================
"The coolant salt passes out of the reactor containment region
and heats the gaseous working fluid of a gas-turbine power
conversion system, analogous to the gas turbines used in
today’s jet engines. The hot, high-pressure gas expands in a
turbine, generating shaft work that turns a generator and
produces electricity while also turning a compressor."
============================================
this implies that the heat from reaction of the fuel-
loaded lithium- / beryllium-fluoride is handed off to a
gas which turns the turbine -- an unnamed gas. . they
go past this fact with impunity, as though that gas
was an insignificant choice. . probably not. . it must
take up heat convectively, not being a liquid which
allows conductive heat transfer, and it must turn the
turbine as it expands because of its heat. . then, its
waste heat must be removed. . this part of the design
is inefficient. . very. -- j
p.s. iroseland link::: http://flibe-energy.com/
p.p.s. helium gas is shown in the diagram of the reactor
set-up for test and evaluation, not power generation.
.
My point was the low pressure is a nice story for the primary loop, but the secondary loop is always going to be very hot and very high pressure.
converted from liquid to steam, which is not happening
with helium -- or whatever it is which stays gaseous.
heat transfer is best, of course, from liquid to liquid,
and much less efficient from liquid to gas. -- j
.
They have looked at a reheat cycle using super-critical CO2 as the working fluid to cool the salt and power the turbines. That approach decreased the size of the turbo-machinery, both the compressor and power turbines. There are typically several power turbines, with some of them directly driving the compressor and others driving a generator.
CO2 compressors needed to move the gas! -- j
.
Think you mean "effective" vs "efficient" in heat transfer from a liquid to gas. The problem is all on the gas side, where the density and specific heat is low and you need a huge surface area to transfer the heat. Both are very "efficient" though, depending on how you choose to measure efficiency, but power out/power in is going to be >90% in both cases.
In any case, this side thread started because I questioned the "safest" assertion. The nuclear (primary) side sounds kind of nice, but uses some nasty chemicals. The secondary side is dangerous, just like any steam turbine system. If a Brayton is used, very high temperatures are needed to get reasonable efficiencies, and the equipment is very expensive and non-standard.
I always had a soft spot in my heart for the old liquid Sodium reactors. Magnetohydrodynamic (MHD) pumps work beautifully in conductive fluids (unlike water), and valves can just be cooling loops around the pipe, freezing the molten metal! Man do they have power density, but that hot sodium is nasty, caustic stuff.
heat-transfer acreage -- conductance is many dozens
of times more efficient than convection! -- j
p.s. didn't you love it when "red october" mentioned MHD?
.
BTW, both heat exchangers use convection on both sides. Conduction is only relevant through the solid walls of the heat exchanger. The fluids are moving, vs stationary. Conduction does work in liquids, but most liquids have very poor coefficients of heat conduction. Do I get the geek award for being such a noodge?
I have always thought that boilers boil, like on a
steam locomotive, so I have assumed that the primary
fluid heats the secondary fluid (through conduction)
which then boils and blows on a turbine as steam.
no? . then, heating steam with hot primary fluid is
inefficient, compared with conduction through a
metal wall. . yes? -- j
.
Convection (primary fluid to the tube walls)
Conduction (through the tube walls, very low impedance to heat flux)
Convection (from the tube outer wall to the secondary fluid)
The main thermal impedance is the convection, and other the two convection processes, the one on the single phase / low density fluid side is a bigger challenge. If it is a gas, it needs a huge surface area to overcome the poor heat transfer.(like the air side on a car radiator).
A typical water to water heat exchanger looks like:
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http...
A typical liquid to high pressure gas heat exchanger looks like a recuperator:
http://www.aitesa.es/en/business-areas/p...
I think you get how it works, but the process to transfer heat from a surface to a moving fluid is convection, not conduction:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_transf...
I needed a word to describe my inelegant focus on convection vs conduction, but also capture the inner geek. The HR woman in the office I work from uses it for me, when I won't give up on an argument.
Since you corrected me on the Baofung hand held radios, should I assume you are an EE or electronics hobbyist? I am an ME, but have worked 20+ years in the design of naval and oil & gas power distribution systems, converters, motors and generators.
but did not have to know that it's convection when
the intersection is solid to liquid. . dumb me thought
that convection pertained to solid-gas transfer.
I spent 33 years in the oak ridge manhattan project
plants, designing and managing. . I appreciate
your patience with me, Thor, since you're the ace
in this stuff. . Thanks!!! -- john
p.s. I just bought an 8-watt baofeng and a loooong
antenna. . also getting ready to put up a 2m/70cm
ant high above the chimney! . I'm a ham also.
.
MS ME - Robotics and controls
went to work (even though I had a free ride for PhD, dumb!)
Worked at GD Electric Boat for ~15 years.
Started consulting company, mostly for ExxonMobil projects ~2 yrs
Last 12 yrs, CTO at DRS Technologies (mid-tier defense company), doing many, many things (which ADD-me loves). One of them is selling electric propulsion systems to EB.
I'll have to get some ham inspiration from you. I'd given up on it in favor of too many other hobbies (wife calls them vices) a while ago. The closet thing is speaker-building. Also love to hear what it was like in the Manhattan Project when you were there!
those 33 years -- the COBs were the most intriguing!
best speaker set of all time -- Dahlquist DQ10s
with a pair of DQ-1 subs;; second-best, the Leak
3090s. . transmission-line 15s. . I have the Leaks.
here::: https://search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?p=le...
k25 was amazing and y12 was even more
amazing. . learned the classified info business
very carefully, and can talk. . those guys in '41
when it all began were really sharp. . check out
their "primer" :::
free in wiki (wow!)::: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?titl...
the most fun unclassified thing from oak ridge is
the fact that they stole a ~900 mW power plant
from Chicago and built it at k25 in about 3 months --
as the story goes, "one man per brick." . that, and
the drawing labeled "oak ridge natural lavatory"
which was in the central files at k1001. . and the
story about the weekend when they had to make
an emergency run to chattanooga for condoms,
to avoid a plant shut-down.
war stories abound. -- j
You are educating me further. I've not heard of the Leaks. They look wonderful. Early ribbon tweaters? Need to investigate this TL design!
I built a pair of TL style speakers for a friends front speakers in a home theater. They were beautiful. Magnificent sound reproduction. Got my brother a kit for a pair as a result.
I got a pair of Klipchorns in college in a weird deal. I wish I'd kept them, because they sounded magnificent too. One of these days, I may build a pair, if I don't get too consumed with direct amplification and integrated digital crossovers. As an engineer I waffle between wanting to do a beautiful acoustic design, and wanting to hit the full range, controlled by a simple digital crossover, leveraging modern technology. It's a smorgasbord!
is the most difficult part -- yes, like the ribbon tweeters
in the leaks. . the lightweight and rigid styrofoam
15s are also impressive.
but. . How In The Hell do they get all of that sound
out of a flat-screen tv or a tiny ipad? . blows my mind.
have you ever heard any of the nautilus-shell
shaped speakers? . supposedly, all of their drivers
are backed with TL tails. . WoW. -- j
.
I watched the video in the middle and was thoroughly unimpressed. If you want to tout your solution, you don't need three minutes of scare-tactics. Present your case.
Is the application process unnecessarily complicated by regulatory requirements?
Once you are a professional activist the last thing you want is for your cause to end.
put 'em in submarines, don't they? -- j
p.s. lots of wheels, of course -- heavy!!!
.
He is looking to build support for America to build the technology
Jan
even Norway ( they are sitting on a pile of easily extractable thorium )
http://rose-blogg.blogspot.com/
Japan is working on it.. Even India is messing with the idea..
The patents on the tech that surround the process we dont have figured out yet are going to be a goldmine..
Also, once we are to the point where these are commercialize-able reactors the labor that will be needed to manufacture a planets worth will be a gold mine for some workforce. Pretty much everyone wants that workforce living in their backyard..
or Danish or whatever that language is! -- j
.