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If the viewer is turned off by the "selfishness" aspect, then chances are that this is not a mind open enough to accept her philosophy.
El Barfo! (A little Spanish expletive) I respond: "Don't you think emulating one of her heroes would be a good thing?" If they would answer honestly they would have to say, "I've never read her books." Never got that honest answer, yet.
Then I grill them on what planet stealing is a good thing, or practicing charity with something you did not earn.
Robin Hood was a great example of BAD selfishness, since he stole, coveted, and did it all so he would be looked upon as good while all the time doing evil deeds.
And your 100% correct, the people who condemn the Objectivist, have not read Atlas Shrugged, or the Fountainhead, or my personal favorite, Anthem.
If you are not going to live by the laws then we have a lawless society whereby everything is permissible, and viola we have total anarchy.
If "The People" want to change their government and the taxation they bear, then they should do it. Oh wait, the Colonies did that hence the USA. Hrmmm...There is a RIGHT way and a WRONG way to solve the issue but stealing regardless of the motive is still wrong.
Look at it this way, if your neighbor borrowed your lawn mower, even with your consent, but then refused to return it, and then you went over and retrieved it, were you stealing? RH is the same thing. What was taken was done in a corrupt manner. The retrieval of same is merely returning property to its rightful ownership.
Ayn Rand:
"The title of this book may evoke the kind of question that I hear once in a while: 'Why do you use the word 'selfishness' to denote virtuous qualities of character, when that word antagonizes so many people to whom it does not mean the things you mean?'
"To those who ask it, my answer is: 'For the reason that makes you afraid of it.'
"But there are others, who would not ask that question, sensing the moral cowardice it implies, yet who are unable to formulate my actual reason or to identify the profound moral issue involved. It is to them that I will give a more explicit answer.
"It is not a mere semantic issue nor a matter of arbitrary choice. The meaning ascribed in popular usage to the word 'selfishness' is not merely wrong: it represents a devastating intellectual 'package-deal,' which is responsible, more than any other single factor, for the arrested moral development of mankind.
"In popular usage, the word 'selfishness' is a synonym of evil; the image it conjures is of a murderous brute who tramples over piles of corpses to achieve his own ends, who cares for no living being and pursues nothing but the gratification of the mindless whims of any immediate moment.
"Yet the exact meaning and dictionary definition of the word 'selfishness' is: concern with one's own interests.
"This concept does not include a moral evaluation; it does not tell us whether concern with one's own interests is good or evil; nor does it tell us what constitutes man's actual interests. It is the task of ethics to answer such questions.
"The ethics of altruism has created the image of the brute, as its answer, in order to make men accept two inhuman tenets: (a) that any concern with one's own interests is evil, regardless of what these interests might be, and (b) that the brute's activities are in fact to one's own interest (which altruism enjoins man to renounce for the sake of his neighbors).
...
"Yet that is the meaning of altruism, implicit in such examples as the equation of an industrialist with a robber. There is a fundamental moral difference between a man who sees his self-interest in production and a man who sees it in robbery. The evil of a robber does not lie in the fact that he pursues his own interests, but in what he regards as to his own interest; not in the fact that he pursues his values, but in what he chose to value; not in the fact that he wants to live, but in the fact that he wants to live on a subhuman level (see 'The Objectivist Ethics')
.
"If it is true that what I mean by 'selfishness' is not what is meant conventionally, then this is one of the worst indictments of altruism: it means that altruism permits no concept of a self-respecting, self-supporting man—a man who supports his life by his own effort and neither sacrifices himself nor others. It means that altruism permits no view of men except as sacrificial animals and profiteers-on-sacrifice, as victims and parasites—that it permits no concept of a benevolent co-existence among men—that it permits no concept of justice.
...
"To rebel against so devastating an evil, one has to rebel against its basic premise. To redeem both man and morality, it is the concept of 'selfishness' that one has to redeem."
Different times. Most people are growing dumber. They don't know basic history, let alone philosophy. On O'Reilly's Show his guy Watters asks a college student who was George Washington. her response was, "Wasn't he the second president after Lincoln?"
He doesn't understand any of this. He's a religious zealot hopelessly trying to rationalize whatever his politics are regardless of whatever actual reason he came to it.
What is your problem with Judaism? How about Hinduism, or Buddhism?
Again, I think, there is a confusion here because of imprecise terminology being used.
Buddhism, Christianity, Islam, Judaism etc. are religions, not philosophies and not ethics theories. There are philosophical aspects and ethics issues in them. But, without a doubt, their bases are faith. Faith is by definition not a rational proposition.
As I pointed here recently in a different context, I have a moral code, not based on a specific philosophy or on a specific religion. It is: nobody has the right to DECIDE what is good for me AND I AM responsible for ALL my actions. You can advise me, but I am the final authority.
I vigorously disagree that none of the religions or of the philosophies is better or worse, just different. In my opinion, there are huge differences in goodness or badness among both religions and philosophies. The beauty of this life is that I am entitled to that judgment. I learned long time ago that is nearly impossible to reason about religion with religious people. Here, among us Objectivist (which you said you are not), we can analyze and analyze forever the details of goodness or badness of religions and philosophies and "measure" them on some kind of "scale". Still, we would in the end part, each with our own opinions, perhaps somewhat improved, but friends as before.
Do you see the differences I am trying so quickly to describe?
By the way, this whole subject is the reason why I recently posted the little piece about the quote from Augustine of Hippo. I am surprised how little rational reaction I provoked. You only pointed out that clean of heart does not mean free of sin. That is only a tiny side issue.
Friends as before (I hope)!
I was responding to Robbie53024, who did answer to my question elsewhere that he is not an Objectivist. My thick fingers typed B instead of R.
I now understand that he thinks that Objectivism is a religion of worshipers of Ayn Rand. I certainly do not agree with that view.
I just noticed that in responding to you I neglected to respond about my moral code.
First, let me say that in my opinion religion, philosophy and ethics (moral code) are three different subject matters. To me, religion is based on faith and thus not properly rational. Philosophy is a system of concepts, rationally connected that include a recognition of limited knowledge. Ethics is an outgrowth of the fact that humans are social animals. The fundamentals of my ethics go back to virtues admired by ancient Greeks and ancient Egyptians before them. Virtues are learned values that we rationally consider to be valuable to our own lives. My top values are: justice, prudence, temperance, fortitude, hope and charity. On top of this I believe that in the longest run, good wins over evil. In this, I define good as something the enhances the quality of and happiness in life for me and for all other humans who respect those virtues I listed. I doubt that Hitler would agree.
Religion is a primitive form of philosophy in its attempt to establish a coherent view of the world and how to live, although through faith and mysticism.
If I am alone on Earth, what does it matter if I behave cowardly or courageously? But as soon as I have my parents around, or my wife, or my children, the moral code matters a great deal. Would you say?
Standards of behavior with regard to others depend on what is proper for the individual in accordance with his nature.
The constructs cooked up in religion are attempt to understand the nature of reality and how to act. That is what the dogmas of their faith are.
I had a recent interchange with LS who stopped interacting when the questions got to a point where she couldn't respond (my conjecture). So, I'll posit the same to you. Are love or freedom real and rational?
Come on, R! I am beginning to question you motives.
Why do you accept the concept of love or freedom, relative concepts as you identify, but negate that millions of people feel faith with as much or more reality to them?
Some here call me a religious zealot, but they are mistaken, I am zealous in my beliefs and will not be cowed by those who want to shut me up.
OK. I will try one last time.
Faith is, in my opinion, a belief or feeling that something is true. Religious faith is, again in my opinion, a belief in supernatural power of one kind of another, i.e. in the existence of God or Gods. That is the fundamental. Of course, even religious people being rational animals, they build conceptual constructs, which I think you believe are a philosophy. But to people outside the particular religion, that is not philosophy. It is dogma pure and simple.
The mysticism label comes from the fact that religious dogma cannot be rationally explained and analyzed. It is so because God says that it is. I think some people call that non sequitur.
Please note that you just said yourself that you are zealous, thus you are zealot. Sequitur. People smell zealotry.
All the best. Goodbye!
What if I told you that God is nothing more than the essence of whatever/however the universe was created? Or are you of the belief that all that is spontaneously originated out of nothing?
If you want to understand how the physical universe has been evolving then consult science. When you don't know, you have nothing to say. Fantasizing about mystical realms will not tell you.
To love is to value. Freedom is the absence of coercion. Neither are mysticism.
Your constant, repetitive, inappropriate promotion of religious dogma on a forum for the ideas of Ayn Rand, which you trash in ignorance along with your personal smears and attacks, certainly is zealotry and does not belong here. No one wants you to "shut up", when you don't know something the rational position is to stop talking about it. It is you who has nothing to say. Take it wherever you want to but it is inappropriate to keep intruding on this forum with your religious proselytizing.
playboy interview with AR
thank you for your response. Robbie is just argumentative for the sake of being argumentative. He will not go away regardless of how often you present reality to him. he has yet to understand that A is A.
"A is A" seems to be some kind of dogmatic slogan for him, open to sanctioning any arbitrary assertion he wants. His bizarre statement, "You cannot state that one form of moral beliefs is one thing and another is something else, as some are very fond of stating: A=A", is false. "A is A" does not mean that "one thing" and "another" must be the same whenever he wants them to be.
Neither your ideas being the same nor different than hers says anything about thinking for yourself versus blindly accepting what you read from her or anywhere else. It depends on whether or not you are in fact understanding and thinking. Disagreeing could just as well mean that one blindly accepts or has been manipulated by what someone _else_ said.
"Disagreeing" with someone is not a sign of independence. Believing you have to disagree in order to be independent is just as dependent on what someone else says as believing you have to agree.
No one supports the notion that "just because Ayn Rand said it it must be automatically true".
But do you get what I'm saying?
Please don't argue with me I picked the least controversial one I had
My point in all this is we all won't agree on everything, that's what makes being on here fun. We agree on the big stuff disagree on the little details. So we debate them and but at the same time respect one another's opinions
"To exist is to be something, as distinguished from the nothing of non-existence, it is to be an entity of a specific nature made of specific attributes. Centuries ago, the man who was—no matter what his errors—the greatest of your philosophers, has stated the formula defining the concept of existence and the rule of all knowledge: A is A. A thing is itself. You have never grasped the meaning of his statement. I am here to complete it: Existence is Identity, Consciousness is Identification.
Whatever you choose to consider, be it an object, an attribute or an action, the law of identity remains the same. A leaf cannot be a stone at the same time, it cannot be all red and all green at the same time, it cannot freeze and burn at the same time. A is A. Or, if you wish it stated in simpler language: You cannot have your cake and eat it, too.
Are you seeking to know what is wrong with the world? All the disasters that have wrecked your world, came from your leaders’ attempt to evade the fact that A is A. All the secret evil you dread to face within you and all the pain you have ever endured, came from your own attempt to evade the fact that A is A. The purpose of those who taught you to evade it, was to make you forget that Man is Man."
Confession time I read the entire speech in one day and I'm afraid I may have glossed over some of it
Also philosophy has never been my strong suit ( to put it mildly in reality i am almost failing the subject in school) I'm better at the political side so thanks for the help
I don't even treat what my parish priest says as the "gospel truth," nor that of the Pope himself for that matter - yes, I'm a Catholic heretic.
That being said, one of my strongest complaints against Objectivists and Randists is that they begin to treat philosophy as religion. I have even been told that I cannot 'pick and choose' amongst what Rand said with respect to what I want to represent as my philosophy.
Jan
A philosophy may expand, improve its formulations, or correct errors, but valid basic principles do not change. It isn't 'A is A' one day 'A is B' or 'not A' the next. The philosophical notion that on principle there are no principles is Pragmatism, not philosophy itself.
Your being told that Ayn Rand's philosophy is an integrated system with logical dependencies and not a Chinees menu open to whatever you want it to be does not mean it is a religion.
No one told you that you can't personally believe whatever you want with as many contradictions as you want for your own philosophy, but that isn't Objectivism.
Clearly you haven't see how they teach math in California. :-)
Jan
I do not accept the "Catechism" approach to Objectivism. There is no 'litany' and the concept of a philosophy that is based on independent thought and rationality being packaged as 'you must accept the whole thing hooklineandsinker' is absurd.
I will consider and accept the principles that I find rational. There happen to be more of those principles in Objectivism than in most other philosophies.
Jan
To what would you attribute this definition: the study of ideas about knowledge, truth, the nature and meaning of life, etc. Sounds like religion to me.
The only religion that I'll attempt to speak authoritatively about is Catholicism. I'd say that even the Pope's of late have been less dogmatic in their perspective - heck, the current Pope has even opened up to homosexuality. There are some things that are fundamental, not necessarily dogmatic.
To me, dogma, as a conceptual structure, is a top down affair. But since we use "fundamental" as a descriptor here, it would be more appropriate to speak of bottom up. In any case, dogma is a structure, consisting of very basic "undeniable" (read unchangeable) fixed beliefs and then, following from that, a set of rigid, also undeniable truths.
Catholic Church has tried many times to rescind certain parts of their dogma, which were before that change just as "self-evident" dogmatic truths as everything else. A conceptual structure from which you can cut out pieces and the rest supposedly remains sound and untouched is not something I can consider with any confidence.
In the Soviet Union, the communist dogma was for all practical purposes a religion and writings by Marx, Engels, Lenin and Stalin were in effect their "bible".
For the Catholic church, the prohibition of killing is fundamental and not dogmatic. All life is sacred, that is not an opinion, that is a fact. Just as much so is that fact that one owns oneself.
In primitive times it was not a matter of first developing a theology of the universe and then going back to start over with ethics, or of formulating ethics before ever thinking about the nature of the universe. People had to make choices from the beginning. All major aspects of a philosophical world-view evolve together, beginning with a sense of life with a lot left implicit.
A primitive, mystical view of the universe has a profoundly negative effect on a subsequent moral code. Rational, civilized people do not define the good in terms of submissively obeying commandments from a god and living for another world.
Even morality, as part of a general outlook, is more than "how people should relate to one another". It concerns the choices we must make which make a difference in our lives, beginning with the choice to think or not. There are no moral principles for dealing with other people without first formulating an understanding of the nature of man and what is moral for him as an individual. The insidious influence of altruism has led people to view morality as only concerned with relations with others, and then only as sacrifice as the meaning of the good.
OPAR will give you a much better additional understanding because it is a non-fiction, systematic explanation unconstrained by the limitations of a novel.
But you still need the broader context of its relation to the prominent philosophies in history which still dominate. For that it doesn't matter that you are getting nothing out of your school course in philosophy. The way it is typically taught, it is a good sign that you are by natural inclination choking on it and throwing it up.
When you have the time, listen to the recordings of Leonard Peikoff's lecture courses on the history of western philosophy that he first gave in the 1970s. At $11 for each of the two series they are now very inexpensive.
https://estore.aynrand.org/p/95/founders...
https://estore.aynrand.org/p/96/modern-p...
There is also a free version at the ari web site but it is more cumbersome to listen to and isn't set up to be downloaded.
There is also good discussion of the role of the axioms of existence, identity and consciousness for their role in conceptual knowledge in Ayn Rand's Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology, but that can come later.
You will find an enormous difference between all of this and what you are currently suffering through at school.
As an aside, according to the video, Mark Cuban found AR "inspiring". Is there any chance to reconsider Mark Cuban for a role as one of the titans in Atlas Shrugged - Now Non-Fiction?
I know Khalling had some reason for not liking Mark Cuban that I have since forgotten.
As the founder of Compuserve, Mark Cuban has long been one of my heroes. Thanks to him, I was on the Internet at the whopping speed of 312 bits per second back in 1985, with one of those CD's he became famous for once AOL bought out Compuserve.
There have been a lot of productive industry leaders, but most don't come close to having the character of a Hank Rearden and Ellis Wyatt. You have reasons to admire Mark Cuban for his productive success with a particular product, but what do you think does he has to do with Ayn Rand's philosophy in Atlas Shrugged?
What most people don't know is that Mark Cuban started the first nationwide online service provider (Compuserve) before selling it to America Online. Cuban was a self-made billionaire by the time he was 30.
Remember this scene from AS1.
Paul Larkin: They say you're intractable, you're ruthless, your only goal is to make money.
Henry Rearden: My only goal is to make money.
Paul Larkin: [whisper] Yes, but you shouldn't say it.
Mark Cuban would not have been acting if he had played Hank Rearden in that scene. That scene characterizes Mark Cuban to a T.
I hesitate posting this because it is so full of immoral concepts and dis-information. Let's start here:-
"Afraid that some big company might steal the idea? That is life. When you run with the elephants there are the quick and the dead. That is a challenge every small company faces."
Since we have a patent system to protect property rights, what he's describing as "that's life" is actually theft. It is no different stealing the products of an inventor's mind than it is to steal physical property. His POV is so obnoxious and immoral. ugh
Remember this song?
Another Brandy from the way back machine!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28GrXgEH...
Somebody down-voted your above comment. I see no reason... I restored your point.
I never had that type of "Brandy" ;-) Though I might have enjoyed same. I've only enjoyed the unreconstituted wine version.
Thank you very much. I think that I knew all of what you said here, but in perhaps somewhat vague manner. Nothing beats complete clarity. In fact, I think, it increases the depth of understanding.
I also think that some of their confusion stems from inadequate understanding of metaphysical concepts.
Thanks, again.
I understand the "theory" of Objectivism, I just reject it. History demonstrates that it is fallacious. I believe history.
Objectivism is a philosophy based in reality.
see? lots of work to do...
His posts are like listening to a broken record with deep scratches which turn what might have been a tune with potential into an interrupted and disconnected annoyance. He is unwilling, or unable, to stay on point, frequently shifting focus to some tangential red herring, and often taking cheap shots at people trying to learn more about Objectivism or Ayn Rand.
Maybe he thinks he is some avenging 'angel' for his beliefs, or something else; I don't know. But I don't see someone interested in the ideas of Objectivism or the novels of Ayn Rand. He can pay a la carte lip service to the movies all he wants, but his posts indicate that he isn't interested in the ideas that gave rise to them.
His favorite conundrums show a lack of understanding of the fundamentals that explain the nature and primacy of existence. So, he shouldn't be surprised, if he stays, to be ignored, or have his flawed chains of thought dismantled.
As you said...it speaks volumes...are there contradictions...?
Remember that Objectivism was only published through AS starting in 1957 with scholarly writings following, yet Christianity had been there for 2000 years, without much success against WWI, Hitler, Mao, Lenin, Stalin, Idi Amin, Pol Pot to name just a few. And now we're dealing once again with another religiously driven murderous ideology, Islam.
If it is merely "enlightenment" that is needed to achieve this O type society, what accounts for the US today? It is certainly not religion that is causing what is occurring today.
How is any of that comparable to an 'O type society'?
I repeat:
Hitler prevailed for more than 6 million Jews and several million Gypsies, Homosexuals, handicapped, etc. That was a cruel reality for them.
You seem to think that since they didn't last "forever" that they somehow don't seem to count. These "Attilas" are very real.
How do you account for the "enlightened" US populace which is seemingly placing itself back under a tyrant, enslaving itself to a government? This has nothing to do with religion, in fact, it is partially due to a lack of religion, in my estimation. BO is not using a religious argument to push altruism, quite the contrary, he's using selfishness and class envy, very much anti-Christian themes (as well as most other major religions).
You seem to think that since they didn't last "forever" that they somehow don't seem to count. These "Attilas" are very real.
How do you account for the "enlightened" US populace which is seemingly placing itself back under a tyrant, enslaving itself to a government? This has nothing to do with religion, in fact, it is partially due to a lack of religion, in my estimation. BO is not using a religious argument to push altruism, quite the contrary, he's using selfishness and class envy, very much anti-Christian themes (as well as most other major religions).
You are likely to state "rational selfishness." That "theory" says that no person should exert their will over another, because it would then cause their own liberty to be at risk. I say that is idiocy and has been disproven by thousands of years of history.